The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Pumping Oil out the Valdez's Breather? Put it to rest!!!

Pumping Oil out the Breather? Put it to rest!!!
Now I had this theory that the quart of oil that’s disappearing with every tank of gas might be exiting via the crankcase breather because the mesh was missing. We have discussed on several occasions the fact that some of them were burned out to clear the sludge from the inside. So, taking a lesson from “Mr. Wizzard” (for you old dudes), I rigged up a slop bucket for the experiment. I finished up the Grape Juicy Juice and cut the threads of the top, slipped it over the breather tube and strapped it in place with a few tie wraps. Then took her out to burn up a tank of petrol, which taint hard to do.
Got back this afternoon and other a little condensation in the bottom of the container she was as clean as a whistle. Conclusion: the earl taint bein’ pumped out there!
I got the typical drip that most all of them have, a handful of droplets where she stands every time I park it for an hour. In fact my buddy has coined her the “Valdez” cuz I spot up his fancy driveway sealer every time I visit. No real evidence of oil running out anywhere, just a little general dampness around the crankcase on the passenger side.
Is she Smoking? Nope! I get a little puff at start up once in awhile if she’s shut down hot and been sitting for a couple of hours. I probably should have put Perfect Circle seals in when I had the valve job done but figured with new valves & guides that I could get by with the O’ rings as it came from the factory with. I don’t see any smoke while she’s running neither on hard acceleration or deceleration. I pulled the plugs and they are a nice clean even tan. I would think that if it were burning a quart every couple hundred miles you should be able to see it when you read the plugs.
So now I’m back to theorizing as to where it’s goin’.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

How many miles to a tank of gas?

Denny Graham,

It seems like it's either loosing it or using it. Your sleuthing would lead one to believe it isn't using it, but I wonder if it could be loosing it and it's leaving no tell tail trail.

Rare, but not unheard of is the leaking engine that only drips when hot and running, and does so in a fashion that leaves no trace or track on any part of the undercarriage.

Flying down the country road, the hurricane slings the drips into oblivion in a effort to frustrate the Man-from-Sandwich.

Stuart

Well that's where the mystery comes in to play Stu. I would expect the bottom side to be covered with oil it that were the case. but it's really pretty clean and I crawl under every couple of weeks and wipe things down and there just isn't that much to wipe off.
Bout 200 miles Woody.
Denny G
Sandwich, IL

I once had a car with a bad front seal, and it coated the inside of the engine bay, undercarriage, and rear of the car with a thin layer of oil. This is not the case, I assume. Could it be a rear main seal? This would not provide the hard evidence that my car did. The oil would coat the inside of the bell housing, some of it escaping with the wind at road speeds, and the rest settling to the bottom of the bell housing - providing you with a "dalmation driveway" later on. Have you checked inside the bell housing? If what I think is true, there would be a greasy film(powdered with dust from your clutch) in there. There would be almost no evidence of it on your undercarriage, and tailgate. Leaky front transmission seals do this same thing (standard or auto).

Denny, I know you said your plugs were all a nice tan color but using that much oil should show up SOMEWHERE. Since we are all speculating right now I'll speculate and say its burning the oil. I have seen and have had cars that would burn oil but not smoke....for a while but in the end it showed up.
Didn't you rebuild this engine...including the rings??? If you did perhaps the rings are not seated yet and you need to drive it more, faster....slower, speed up...you know the drill to seat rings! If you did not do a re-ring job then I suspect everything else you did is firing real good and youre still burning it.....and it WILL show up later when other things, like plugs, can't do the job they once did.
This is really interesting and I'm sure you'll keep us posted on what is going on.

EDIT: Denny, have you checked your radiator to see if any oil is in the antifreeze???

I vote for the burning ... tolerances aren't that great on the ol stovebolts, and burning a minor amount of oil that gets past the rings doesn't have to show up on the plugs

Bill

Any external leakage at highway speed will atomize the oil & it will show up as spots on the rear bumper, tailgate, whatever, back there where the wind swirls everything around. With the headwork you had done it must just be the rings aren't yet seated.
Doug

My 261 has bad exhaust valve seals. It uses a quart every 300 miles or so and doesn't foul the plugs because the oil is going right out into the exhaust manifold and burning off, and you don't notice unless you get right up to the tail pipe and sniff. It only shows up blue if its been sitting at idle for a while or going down a long hill. I was going to fix it but I'm swapping a GMC 302 into the truck.

If you're losing a quart of oil every 200 miles you dam sure ain't burnin' it or you would know it.

I'm no mechanic but is it possible that the leak is from a place where sufficient pressure would be squirting the oil far enough away from the vehicle not to leave evidence?

Can you put it up on a lift and run it up to speed and have a look see. It should be very obvious once you find it... that's a lot of oil in a short time.

Just lay some cardboard under it, and let it idle for a little while - you may need to let it idle at a higher RPM to get a leak to show(if it's even a leak in the first place).

I am looking forward to you finding the solution, what ever it may be.

lay a piece of cardboard under the engine......start it up...let it run for one hour.........its my opinion your rear main seal is bad and oil is being pushed out rear main seal when hot and driven at higher rpms......thinner oil........more leadage....ive seen it many times.........

Denny, in 1980 I built up a 1960 Rambler 196 cubic inch flathead six that burned oil from the git-go due to inadequate cleanup of the cylinder walls after I honed them. I left on a trip from California to Tennessee immediately after doing an in-the-frame rebuild, and by the time I arrived in Nashville (2,500 miles), it was using 3 quarts of oil to every tank of gas. The spark plugs WERE NOT oil-fouling! When I pulled the pistons, the oil ring expanders were rubbing the cylinder walls because the abrasive residue had worn the steel rails down to half their original thickness in 2500 miles of driving. An engine can put a massive amount of oil through a cylinder without necessarily fouling plugs of giving other evidence of oil consumption.
Jerry

Sure Dave, the inside on all of the 216 bell housings are coated with oil, their supposed to be that way, haven’t you ever heard of a oil clutch?? Yeah there oil in there but not enough to account for a qt. every couple hundred miles, that’s a lot of oil!

Nope Chip, I haven’t gotten around to the bottom end yet, just took care of the top overhaul. The cylinders weren’t worn that bad and the compression was even across the board at around 130 and she doesn’t show any visible signs of burning oil, as mentioned, no smoke and clean plugs.

Over the years I dun got lazy like the rest of ya’s, and am used to jumping into that new Sebring or Sierra and driving it for 100,000 miles with out pulling the dipstick. But since last summer when I took that step back in time, back to when trucks was trucks, I’m getting into the habit of checking the oil and radiator every time I take big Red out for her exercise. Nothing but nice clean green Peak in the radiator Alvin.

Me and my trusty dog just now went out and sniffed her tail pipe, (dogs are good at that you know), she’s kind of sooty but not wet and doesn’t at all smell of oil. After all, I’m running an early Rochester ‘B’ so one would expect the exhaust to be a little black and sooty because of that!

I hate to talk about something and not be able to back it up with a picture to prove it, so, here’s a picture of what the top, bottom and back looks like after not being wiped down for at least a thousand miles. There maybe a few ounces clinging to it but there taint no five or six quarts of oil drippin’ from this. http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2005069560098611668UdhTQq

Yep Jerry, I’m a tending to think your way, I’m really surprised that I’m not seeing any smoke though. I surely would have thought that would be visible in the exhaust or on the plugs. With the race cars when we were using that much oil to fuel you could see them smoking pretty good. Rebuilding the bottom end was supposed to get done this winter but things just didn’t work out.

Sorry you other guys with the cardboard, as the old saying goes if it tain’t drippin’ oil, then it’s probably out of oil. So the drip on the stains on the Depends is to be expected. As to the rear main seal, which does leak a tad, I’ve replaced the seal in the cap and I don’t feel that you can do a good enough job on the rope seals with the crank in the block so the upper half is gonna have to wait till the short block gets torn down. The front seal is also leaking just a tad. Enough that if I wipe it all down in a couple of days there will be some seeping down the front of the pan, and once again, now where near a quart.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny, What you need for the Valdez is a couple cans of that good ole stuff to thicken up da earl...STP
The magical oil conditioner to stop oil consumption and boost power !!
And if that don't git it done, just be happy knowin that oil goin out the exhaust is keepin them pipes from rustin out, and oil is cheaper than exhaust pipes !

Okay, so I aint no help, I was just goofin around, like it said when joined up,some of this is for enjoyment, plus todays my birthday and I do as I please on the one day of the year thats mine.
But seriously,a qt.in a 1000 mi wouldn't be bad, but in 200 mi does sound a bit much.
I spose you could do a cyl. leak test on it to see whats leaking and where its going, but without the machine it would be time consuming to set it up.
What da hect,everybodys mentioned everywhere that oil can go,plus I feel you knew that cause you been round the block more than once.
Or you could stop using that cheap oil ! lol

Hey, How come we got to the moon long before we thought of putting wheels on luggage ?
Dan

Thanks for the reply. I only mentioned it because my Father used to rebuild Transmissions, and he would get a few false
"come-backs" for just this reason. The customer's rear main seal was usually the reason for the spotty driveway.
I like the "oil clutch" statement.

Too bad the leak isn't in the intake - it could keep the upper end lubed like Marvel Mystery Oil (I still have a MMO canister on my firewall)

It is possible for oil to leak past the exhaust valve guides and be blown out the exhaust, as said by 4ontheFloor. Either worn guides or leaking seals are suspects, and in that situation, you don't see any evidence on the spark plugs. That whole problem is what led to the development, in the late 1950s, of the umbrella seals that fit over the valve guides. I agree with desertdog, a quart in 200-300 miles should leave a lot of oil spatter on the back end of your truck.

Harvester

Original post, second paragraph Harvester, "I probably should have put Perfect Circle seals in when I had the valve job done but figured with new valves & guides that I could get by with the O’ rings as it came from the factory with." I just had every thing new done to her a couple thousand miles ago.
I'm pretty much convinced that it's just getting past the rings (55k on the original engine) and it being metered in with the mixture. In other words it's just burning it!!
We'll take care of that when the cab comes off the frame. I’m gonna rebuild the short block before it all goes back together. I just taint got the room to do it now, not till I can unload a couple of airplanes and open up the hanger some.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny, for a piece of mind you can take an hour or so one evening and pull the valve cover and rocker assembly and put new seals on. I have the little "gizmo" tool that you can put over one valve at a time and suppress it, pull the keepers and spring off and slide an umbrella seal down over the stem, put the spring back on and un-screw the little gizmo tool. I'm sure you've seen what I'm talking about. Once when I did it I put the rocker assembly back on and didn't even have to re-adjust the valves! Now that was luck.
Hey, back then I didn't have an air compressor and had to bend a piece of wire to stick in the spark plug hole to hold the valve up but hey...it worked!! Just a thought!

I'm pretty much convinced it just a worn cylinders/pistons/rings even though the compression is still good it could just be that the oil scrapers are showing their age.
I put a lot of faith in Jerry and the other guys who feel that a quart of earl to a tank of petrol taint gonna show up on the plugs. Like I said before, that’s is a surprise to me, I surely would have thought that it would leave the plugs sooty. Plus the fact that there is no visible smoke also seems doesn’t sound quite right.
There is only one true way to tell for sure and that’s when I tear into the motor and autopsy it. I’ll get to take some good solid measurements. Then I’ll see just how much wear we have in every thing. But for now I’m just gonna have to live with it and keep buyin’ the Rotella-T by the case.
I could do a differential leak down test but that won’t tell me how much wear I’ve got on the oil rings. After 56k and 58years it would come as no surprise that the cylinders are getting a little weak.
Oh yes Alvin, even though I mentioned the Perfect Circle Valve seals, I’m not now or have I ever really been very much in favor of starving the valve stems for oil. That’s the main reason I didn’t install them before and if my memory serves me correctly a seat has to be turned on the boss to accept the seals. Now that was the way it was years ago, they may have change the installation since then. I think I have seen the umbrella type that you mentioned, but again, I’m kind of a believer that they lead to premature guide wear.
Enough for now! Gotta go make my “big old wife” some breakfast and lunch.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I agree with the worn rings theory.
Before I pulled my original never rebuilt 216 of my coupe, it used over 1 quart per gas tank.
You could not see any smoke at the exhaust and the spark plugs were dry.
It had no tail pipe after the muffler and while driving you could smell oil vapor mixed with the exhaust fumes. Especially when accelerating hard.

I think you are right. I think the puff of smoke at start-up is the main sign (either valve or rings), right?

Denny, before you condemn the rings, why don't you do dry and wet compression checks? The outcome will give you better insight into what is going on with your engine. An increase of 20 PSI or so wet is more or less typical, but a greater increase than that indicates ring leakage. If you have the setup for a cylinder leakage test, ring leakage will show up as hissing/rushing noise in the crankcase. Twenty percent or less leakage typically has been considered acceptable, but less is better; 10% or less is pretty common in a good engine. From 20% to 30%, you usually don't notice any difference in engine performance, but above 30% its your choice. I have seen engines running with normal compression (115-130 PSI dry) and 40-45% cylinder/crankcase leakage, dry, with no perceptable change in performance, although these were typically light-duty vehicles. I don't remember wet compression numbers for any of these engines, but they didn't get anything more than "tune-up" work at the time.

Just for clarification, "dry" in these tests means the tests are done after normal operation, and no oil added to the cylinder for the tests. "Wet" means an ounce or so (or 2-3 squirts from a pump oiler) of oil, added to the cylinder and the engine turned a couple of turns before doing the test.

As for the valve guide seals, when they first came on the market, on V-8 engines, you had to cut the outside diameter of the guide in order to install the seal. I don't remember on the 6-cyl engines, but I think the same operation applied. They were Perfect Circle then, too.

Harvester

Hey Dave that little puff of smoke at start up was only a few times, maybe three or four. Normally when shes warmed up it turns over once or twice with out touching the gas befor she starts. Even cold with a couple of pumps of the loud peddle and a little choke, one or to revs and she's running fine. The few times I've gotten a puff out of her was after running at 45 or 50 mph for 15 or 20 minutes.
Done that Harvester, after the valve job, 130 across the board dry and didn't come up enough to even notice with a goodly squrt of #30. That's why I said I think it's just the oil scrapers showing their age. Compression rings are sill sealing pretty good.
It really isn't causing that much of a problem other than having to top it off each time before I take her out for her exercise.
As little as I drive the truck it might cost me $20 or $25 worth of earl over the summer. We'll take care of it next winter.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL