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Are most 2 ton truck PTOs interchangable? I have a spare PTO from an old SM420 and need one for a 5 spd that's in a Ford F600. I know... its not a chev... just couldn't pass up this deal.

Generally one PTO will fit several transmissions from the same manufacturer, and a different brand of transmission takes a slightly different PTO.

I doubt you can use the SM420 PTO on a ford transmission.
53MoneyPit will know for sure...

Grigg

Hy guys, P.T.O.s are transmission specific, first you must determine what transmission is in the f@#d you bought, then you can call your local truck wrecker and get the appropriate one. You may be able to swap just the correct drive gear into your SM420s P.T.O. housing, there is some interchangability of gears within a given housing, some P.T.O.s require a spacer between the transmission and the P.T.O., ask the wrecker to supply all the parts required to install the P.T.O. onto the transmission, hope that helps.

Thanks guys.
I picked up a '80 F600 16 foot dump bed with new rubber, a 8.2 detroit for $600. Someone robbed the PTO and replaced it with a cover plate.
Its something to use around the farm 'till I get the C60 back together.
I have no idea what transmission is in it. Its a five speed, seller says it uses ATF for fluid. Thats sounded odd to me but, its a ford.

Probably a Spicer, see what the tag says, look on the left side first... no ATF for a manual, could be part of why it leaks, it's not thick enough...

PTO's are specific to the transmission. They can be assemble in many configurations and there are as many models as there are trannys. Basically there are single gear units where the driven gear in the PTO is the one on the output shaft. These are made for LH or RH PTO openings. Then there are spur gears(straight) and beveled gears(angled)and these can be cut in two different directions to match the drive gear in the tranny. Then throw in the fact that the tranny drive gear may be at the front of the opening or the rear of the opening. Starting to get the picture....? Now just for fun let's throw in the HP requirements of the device you wish to operate. Small hydraulic pump (?) or large air compressor..? OH..and let's not forget the RPM requirements because it may mean the engine must run at high speed (2000) or it may have too much speed and no power at idle but the the PTO is going like a house afire..

Comes now the double gear PTO's for which we need all the above info and a willingness to spend more money..a LOT more money often. The PTO must have a lower HP capacity than the drive gear inside the transmission and be the weak link or a very high dollar transmission can be split wide open. I've seen RoadRangers break the entire side of the case out due to a mistaken PTO job. There are SAE 6 bolt openings which is common and there are also SAE 8 bolt openings on some heavy duty transmissions. There are shaft high(12 o'clock) and shaft low(6o'clock)assembles, forward and reverse models and two speed PTO's which are really transmissions unto them selves. Enter now the engine drive units that mount to a crankshaft, yep you read it right.

Boy..I'm getting dizzy. Well that is enough PTO info for you novices to digest in one sitting but the bottom line is don't assume anything and get to know your local PTO specialist before bolting something on just because you think it fits. Next week we will discuss specialty PTO's for automatic transmissions that must be pressure fed and some other surprises. Don't miss it.

The deal is not final yet. I'm beginning to have second thoughts about the 8.2 "fuel pincher" and, if I can't locate the proper PTO then the Ford is of no use to me.
Didn't really want to be seen in a ford anyways...

If it's got good tires and runs good you can't go wrong for $600. Even if you only get a weeks worth of use out of it you can make money on scrapping it.

Grigg

Hydraulics on the hoist were rebuilt not long ago and the bed is better than the one on the C60 so I may go for it. Plus there is near the value paid in rubber.

However, I'm finding there's very little to none Ford big truck truck support online. The Stovebolt.com is great!

Going to get it tomorrow. Got to drive it 75 miles to my ranch. I may do it just about the time the sun is setting. No tags/inspection. I figure another $300 in fines if I get caught. We'll see...

Coyote, can't you get a temporary permit to bring it home? If so, that would be a lot cheaper than paying a $300 fine.

Temporary permits work great. Here in Virginia we have what the DMV calls "One trip permits". Last time I used one it was $5. That and a quick phone call for "free" insurance coverage is all it takes. Check with your local DMV to see if your state offers one. It would make the ride a lot more fun.

Bill

The one way trip permit for Virginia is great.
We can go on line and buy it and print it out for $5.

When I drove the 61 F350 from CA to VA I flew out there to look at it and was 95% sure I would buy it. So I did not have the title until I was there and payed for it.
I planned ahead with the trip permit, and had the link to it on the computer I had with me. The permit is only good for 3 days I think, and directly from one place to the other, no detours. I needed more than that so checked with CA to see how they do it, even simpler, if I had the title I could drive it home then tag it, or something simple like that.
The plan was to pretend all the states were as easy as CA, and if it was a problem I would buy and print the VA trip permit on the spot.
Also checked with my insurance company, they let me have a week or two after I bought a vehicle to notify them, but I was covered from the moment I purchased it.

No problems, skipped the trip permit all together, drove the truck 3,000-4,000 miles home with no tags...

Grigg

I had bad vibes about this one. Seller was in a rush to get it off his property, no time for me to get the temp permits, its a Ford... so I'm gonna pass.

I found two other big bolt dumps that might need less work to put in service. Then there's a '68 International Loadstar dump for sale thats road legal and not too far from the farm for $2K.

I used a PTO from an SM420 on a ford NP435 just had to pull the shaft and turn the gear set in the PTO around.
As Dave said PTOs are assembled from off the shelf parts for a specific application and many different applications may be made from the same parts depending on how they are assembled.

Here is a post I made in 2003 about PTO's which may still be helpful to many of you.


How to Determine What PTO is Needed for your Transmission.

If the transmission model number is not known thereby making it difficult to determine the PTO model required this is the procedure that is used and is what any good counterman needs to help you.

1. LH,RH or bottom application location desired?

2. 6 bolt or 8 bolt opening?

3. Is drive gear toward the front or toward the rear of the opening?

4. Is drive gear spur cut or helical cut gear?

5. If helical cut is it a LH or RH helix? (use thumb on either hand to determine)

6. Number of teeth on gear?

7. Intended use of the PTO, ie., hydraulic pump, mechanical winch, water or vacuum pump, etc.

8. Controls type desired/offered.

Armed with this information you can confidently approach any driveline distributor or dealer and find a suitable Power Take-Off.
_________________________
www.Picturetrail.com/Birdhtr

Dave

Good info, Dave! One other detail some folks forget, or don't know about in the first place is driven gear backlash, set by the thickness of gaskets and/or shims between the PTO housing and the transmission case. Too close, and the gears bottom out on each other, making shifting in and out of gear difficult or impossible, and causing rapid wear. Too much backlash (too many shims) and there's lots of slop between the teeth, resulting in noisy operation and/or gear tooth damage. There's usually an access hole to use a dial indicator to check the backlash.
Jerry

Very true, Jerry. In a few words, if the gears are too tight they will whine. If they are too loose they will rattle. Gaskets come in .010-.030 thickness. Spacers come in .062, .100, 125, and .250. If one is expereinced a proper backlash "feel" can be used with good results. Spacers with gears in them are used on certain applications and for changing the rotation of PTO's. Most of the added specers or shims call for increased stud length. Copper washers should also be used with PTO's and not lock washers which can break the case flanges.

A great many of the new PTO's are aluminum cases but if direct mounting a hydraulic pump care must be taken to insure that the PTO is of sufficient strength to hold the weight of the pump. One thing sort of leads to another and that is why it is very important to not attempt just bolting something on. It can be extreemly expensive.

In the hyd part. In the pump--- P.S. fluid.

"In the hyd part. In the pump--- P.S. fluid."

PS pumps use ATF. The only hydraulic pumps that use ATF/PS fluid is a DC powered electric pump like a snow plow or liftgate uses. Hydraulic pumps that are powered by PTO's ( the subject of this thread) use standard hydraulic fluid same as a tractor or off road equipment uses. The seals in these high pressure pumps are not made for ATF or additives and the clearences aren't generally the same either. PTO pumps may be gear, vane or piston design depending upon application requirements. But NEVER use ATF in them.

Well, I bought the F600 and a 10 ton tandem trailer had it towed 80 miles to the ranch with the trailer hooked on the pintle hitch. Pretty costly tow but I'm still ahead as I payed little more than scap value for the lot.
The 8.2 detroit fires up instantly cold, runs perfect.
Got to take a closer look at the PTO needs now that she's at my place. It's RH mounted. The hyd pump is still there but on the trans there is a clean new cover on that side.
This afternoon I'll look for a tag on the trans to see what is is.
The seller seem to think the trans used ATF. I pulled the filler plug and stuck my finger in to check the level and found 90w gear lub. I assume the guy yhat removed the pto refilled it with 90w. I've never heard of ATF in a manual. 30w but never ATF.
I'll get this GM powered Ford going to give more time to spend on the C60. May swap the 8.2 in there when its all done.

Tag on the right rear side says it's a Clark 285V73.
PTO mounting is 6 hole.

I also found the 8.2 front seal badly leaking when she's running. Its coming out of the front somewhere...

Sounds like a 5 speed non overdrive..

You may want to get a service manual before you attempt to remove the front pulley.
Many Detroit's (but not always all engines of the same model) have a cone shaped washer that helps to center and lock the pulley to the shaft, if you don't figure this out, and remove the washer first, you will ruin the pulley or hub while attempting to get the pulley off. also don't hook a puller around a dampener, but you probably already knew that...

Grigg

Thanks Grigg! It's going to take some digging to get to the seal. Lots to remove... Got a manual on the way to hopefully figure out where to begin. The 8.2 injector system is baffling. No IP. External appearance of the 8.2 looks so basic with not much showing.

The PTO seems to be a mystery. Apparently, that Clark transmission was made exclusively for Ford. I got to be sure my buddy don't see me in the Ford dealership.

Called several Ford dealerships and finally found one that deals in med size trucks. Parts guy tells me he can't help me with the PTO part and refers me to "Landmark Equipment". I called Landmark and they tell me they don't deal with trucks, "call the Ford dealer". Ford dealer says the truck is "obsolete/should be in the scrap pile".

I'm hoping to find a PTO store with the big book of PTO applications/cross ref somewhere. I'm beginning to thing it doesn't exist.

Crazy.

There is not much showing, because there is not much to it, very simple, and cheap and easy to service or replace parts.

You have a gear type fuel pump on the outside of the engine, it sucks fuel from the tank through the primary fuel filter.
The pump then pushed fuel through the secondary fuel filter, and into the fuel distribution manifolds in the heads, about 60 or 70 psi.
Under the valve covers are the "unit type injectors" they get fuel from the manifolds in the head, and return excess fuel (that cools the injectors) to separate return manifolds, and through a restricted fitting (to keep some pressure in the system)back to the tank.
The injectors are operated by rocker arms and separate lobes on the camshaft. They have three jobs, to be the high pressure fuel pumps, to properly time and meter the injection of the fuel.

Simple right?

Grigg

Interesting. So, are there three pushrods for each cylinder?

yep

Wow just like a Cummins huh?

I don't know much about Cummins,but I think the old ones have a somewhat similar system?
Many newer ones are different though, with one high pressure pump for metering and timing, and high pressure lines going to the individual injectors.

Grigg

Where is the fuel rack? Or, what does the throttle acually control? The main pump?
And, I don't see any glow plugs??? A compression/leakdown test ain't gonna be easy if there are no GP holes.

Is it common for the 8.2 to run rich, smoke at idle? I can't hardly stand behind it.

Your manual will explain it all better than I can, but to get you thinking.

The fuel "rack" is a confusing term. All under the valve cover Each injector has a small rack that meshes with a pinion, and by moving this rack in and out it moves the pinion, and varies the amount of fuel injected as well as the timing.
The confusing part is all these "racks" are connected together with a "fuel injector control tube", or more than one on a V type engine. This tube has fingers on it that move the individual racks, and they are adjustable to allow you to synchronize all the cylinders. Most everyone incorrectly refers to this tube as the "rack", or the process of adjusting is "running the rack", this is partly true, but not completely, but all that does not change how it works....

There is no throttle. There is a lever on the governor that adjust the amount of fuel injected, this lever is connected to the "gas pedal" in the cab. The governor works linkage that rotates the fuel control tube (or tubes) that has the fingers that work the racks in and out adjusting the amount of fuel injected and therefore engine speed.

I don't believe there are any glow plugs on an 8.2? There are not on the two cycles either, except some very very late 6V53T engines.
To check compression it is a little involved and takes some time, but not hard. Basically you remove one injector, plug the fuel lines to that injector, install the compression gauge in place of the injector, start the engine, and read the pressure while at about 500 rpm. Repeat for the rest of the cylinders, and when done you perform a tuneup which consist of adjusting the valves, setting timing (actually injector plunger height is what you measure), and set the racks by adjusting the fingers on the fuel control tubes.

about the smoke, something is probably wrong, start with a tuneup, see what happens. If no change, there are other possibilities, but start with the free fix first.

I could be wrong on some of the details of the 8.2, as I have seen them, but not worked on them. I have worked on several of the two cycles, and the injection system is almost the same.

Grigg

"To check compression it is a little involved and takes some time, but not hard. Basically you remove one injector, plug the fuel lines to that injector, install the compression gauge in place of the injector, start the engine, and read the pressure while at about 500 rpm"

I run it with the rocker cover off?

When you say "tune up" are you refering to valve and injector adjustment?

I had a 6V71 several yrs ago in a track hoe. The two strokes really sound crisp when right.

Can't wait for the manual to get here.

Sure it will run with the rocker cover off, all the rocker cover does is keep the dirt out and oil in.

If you want you can take a spare cover, and cut the top out, it allows you to work, but also contain most of the oil. When I did a compression check on my 4 cylinder it did not make a mess, just left the cover off completely, it only needs to run for 5 or 10 seconds per cylinder.

Yes, the biggest part of a "tuneup" is adjusting the valves and injectors, also the governor if needed.

Grigg

I used to do a lot of PTO sizing and spec'ing for vacuum tank trucks at my previous job, not so much anymore. I did pull out my 1999 Muncie Power Products catalog and your Clark 285V series transmission is in there with 11 or 12 choices for the right side and about 8 for the left side. I went to the Muncie site and found it listed there too. So PTO's are still available for it. I suggest you try the 800 number on their site and see if you can get some tech help and/or referral to your nearest dealer. Good luck!

I found a truck shop about 12 miles away that does driveshaft repair. Stopped in and ask the guy behind the counter about a pto. He ask "for a 285 clark"... I knew I was at the right place then.
I'll find out monday if he has a used one.

Any more on your PTO?

The search continues...

Used RH '285' PTO's seem to be rare.