The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Timing Again

I've got a 57 3100 with 62 car 235. I just got the engine back from the builder (again) and it's in the truck. I had to install a new flywheel because the old one wasn't playing nice with my new clutch assembly. I bought a NOS 11" flywheel and a new clutch assembly from NAPA. I had the flywheel surfaced, just in case. I'm running Langdon's HEI distributor (S10 conversion).

When I installed the flywheel, it didn't seem to go on right. I thought it was off by a third rotation but it only went on one way so I continued.

I installed the distributor using the shop manual approach. I turned the engine over until #1 exhaust valve opened and then closed. The manual says to turn the engine about a third rotation until the timing mark comes up and drop the distributor in. The mark came up immediately. Hmmm! Is there a corrolation between what I thought was an issue on the flywheel and now the discrepancy on the distributor install? I forged on.

Now I have everything installed but she won't fire at all. The plugs are wet so there is fuel. I have about 12.5 volts to the BAT side of the coil and the same coming out to the distributor. The battery is putting out about 13.5 volts. Hmmm! Where's that other volt? I can turn the engine over with my timing light hooked up and I can get a flash on the timing mark.

What do you think is going wrong? Can the flywheel be installed 1/3 off? If so, can I make an adjustment to the distributor installation and avoid dropping the tranny and clutch? How? I thought that if everything was off a third and I had 6 cylinders that I could just shift my plug wires 2 cylinders clockwise and everything would be good. Not!

Where do I go from here? Thanks for your help.

Jerry

Whatever you do - Avoid long cranking on a newly rebuilt engine that doesn't start right away!
You don't want to wipe off too much assembly lube on the cam lobes/lifters before engine oil can get to it!

I saved this Initial Timing Check a while back:

Pull the valve cover, and watch the #6 cylinder rocker arms.
Turn the engine over slowly by hand until the exhaust valve is almost closed and the intake valve is just beginning to open.
The #1 piston will be at top dead center, or very close to it.
Turn the distributor housing clockwise until the points close, then turn it counterclockwise until they barely break open.
You can find that point by touching the distributor side connector at the coil with a test light with the ignition switch turned on.
Turn the dizzy clockwise until the light goes out, then back it up until the light comes on.
You'll be "static timed" close enough to start and run.


This way you can check when the ignition fires, regardless of flywheel marks.

Don't forget to add engine break-in lube (zinc) and prime the oil pump before installing the dizzy.

Hi Jerry;
Thinking about the 4-stroke engine, are you sure the shop manual said the #1 exhaust valve should open and close before the timing mark comes up??? In my mind, that should read the INTAKE valve. As the intake valve closes, the piston is coming up on the compression stroke and at TDC (for static timing) you would want your dizzy to fire. Sounds to me like you're 180 degrees off.

You need to find true TDC on the compression stroke on your #1 cylinder. I would get a piston stopper that screws into the spark plug hole to be accurate. First find the compression stroke by turning over the engine until compression blows out the #1 hole and then back the engine up. I would also unhook the battery at this point. Install the stopper and slowly bring the piston up to it. Mark where the balancer is in relation to the block, usually with a marker. Turn the engine back about 360 degrees until the piston touches the stopper again. Mark where the balancer stops onto the block. Half way between the marks on the block will be true TDC. Remove the stopper and turn the engine back towards the compression stroke until the mark on the balancer lines up with the center mark on the block. This is where you drop in your distributor. You can also make a permanent mark on your flywheel too, to time the engine with a light after it runs.
Good luck,
Scott

Jerry;
Do a search. There is a wealth of information on this topic. I static timed everything on my rebuild and used Tom's HEI as well. As stated above, you need to make sure that #1 cylinder is at the firing point. The searches will tell you what to look for. You want to be sure that you are not 180 degrees out with the mark on your flywheel. The rotor position when you install the distributor should be point to cylinder #1 spark plug wire. It is not so important that the rotor point in a certain direction away from the block. What is important is that with the flywheel mark visible and the #1 cylinder at TDC, the rotor points to the #1 wire. Make sure your wires are correctly installed as well. Check your rotor rotation and check all the wires to make sure that they are in the proper firing order. The rotor has to be at #1 when the valves on #1 are at TDC and you are on your flywheel mark. If so, the engine should start. As mentioned above, avoid prolonged cranking. A newly rebuilt engine should start right away if everything is right.

What our freind Jerry has descibed is a problem with his flywheel installation. Jerry knows how to do the timing but no one has addressed his installation difficulty with the flywheel.
Since he says it would only go one one way then it suggests an improper flywheel. I'd would be talking to NAPA about the part number for that NOS flywheel. How competent are the NAPA guys you bought this from? Sounds like it is for a 230-250 engine perhaps and not a 235.

Let's see what Hotrod Lincoln has to say about this one.

Got it. I installed the distributor based on the closing of the exhaust valve. It should have been the intake. I was 180 out. She's purrin' now. Thanks everyone.

Dave,

I was under the impression flywheels DID only install one way. The bolts are staggered. This maintains the relationship between crank and flywheel timing marks. Isn't this right?

Stuart

All the 216/235/261 flywheels I know ONLY install one way.....
Makes sense!!

Glad you got it running, Jerry !
- I'm gonna start my new 261 for the first time any day now.

Correct, flywheels do only go on one way but my concern was that he may have had the wrong flywheel. Anyway it's good that he has it fixed now and it seems Waldo53 had the right answer.

250 engine flywheels interchange with some SB and BB engines.
They don't fit early chevy 6s - different mount.

I was about to jump in on this one, but since someone had already done a copy/paste of my timing method, I decided to see if that was sufficient. I teach all my students that static timing method, and another, similar procedure for adjusting valves, and it's surprising how long they remember it.

One of my guys won a $100.00 bet with his uncle, who runs a shop in a nearby town, over adjusting hydraulic lifters. They had been attempting an engine-running adjustment on a 350 engine all day, with no success, when he got home from school. He offered to do a "companion cylinder" adjustment with the engine stopped. The uncle claimed it was impossible, and bet him a C-note he couldn't do it. This boy has some real class- - - -he not only did the adjustment; he was so confident in his work that he bolted the valve covers on. The engine fired up without a single rattle, and he said "Pay me!" The uncle never questioned him again, to the best of my knowledge!
Jerry

This truck has been a PITA since I put those Holley/Webers on it. Last Tuesday I gave up and called my friends at Automazing.com and they came and picked up the truck. My instructions were simple; I don't want to see it again until it's a joy to drive.

A day after they had it they called to tell me the carbs were full of rust and dirt and to ask the status of the fuel tank. I had flushed and re-sealed it last fall.

To make a long story short, they rebuilt the carbs and put their magic on the tune (including a 5 size drop in jet size in the carbs) and voila! She runs nice and sweet. I actually enjoyed driving it home from their shop last night. I even drove it to work this morning at 28 degrees and no heater. I didn't care; I was warm inside.

This thing is killing me.

The speed shop that set it up for me told me to take the truck out and run it awhile to break in the rings. From the time of my last post, I had driven it 3-4 trips of 2-5 miles each. I was getting a little spark knock and it was hard to turn over after the truck was up to temperature and I needed to re-start it. I assumed all of this was a little timing.

Saturday I decided to put some higher octane (89) fuel in it and make a 120 mile trip. The first half would be on a secondary highway that has variable speed limits from 35-50 MPH with several stops along the way. The return half would be highway with a speed limit of 70 MPH (I had no plan to go that fast.)

The truck was a little doggy at about 50 MPH and tried to stall every time I stopped. When it did stall, it was hard to re-start. About 15 miles into the trip I decided this was a bad idea and turned toward the highway. I noticed that at idle, I had no compression (zero #). At high RPM, she was at about 35 # and on local streets she was at about 10 # when up to temperature. Before the trip, she was at about 40+ # with any acceleration. At this point I was so mad at the engine that I didn't care if it did blow so I kept going.

As I said, on the highway she was at about 35 #. The truck was pretty much maxed out at about 55-60 MPH. She has a 3.55 rear and stock 3-speed. The tires are 225 75R15.

When I got near home and exited the highway, the truck died on the ramp (of course the traffic was heavy) and it took 3 light cycles to get it started. It was turning over very slowly and she floods so easy.

Ok guys/gals? Where do I start to diagnose and fix this dam thing? Thanks for your suggestions.

Jerry

Sounds like you got some more junk in the carb. I would opt for a new fuel tank if that's the case,
Scott

Thanks 48bigtrucks. I cleaned the tank out last fall and re-sealed it.

"at idle I had no compression"

I assume you mean it had no oil pressure(?) and if that is correct I don't see what rings would have to do with that. Mine carries 40lbs pressure nearly all the time but did smoke when starting up before it had a 100-150 miles on it then smoked no more. Pressure could only mean the pump or the bearings IMO. I think you need to have a long discussion with the rebuilder Jerry. You have great truck, I've seen it and nobody deserves the torture you've had. I'll be home around Christmas if you want to tear into it and want some help.

I have a great 283 powerpack motor and 700R that will be going in there soon if I don't find a quick fix. I really wanted to stay with the 235 and nostalgia setup but this is getting old fast.

Yes; at operating temperature the oil pressure is zero at idle.

Ok; now that I've vented. I'm going to give the shop a few days to get back to me on their tune to see what they recommend. The first thing I'm going to do is pull the dual intake and put the stock intake and Rochester back on it. I'll move the timing back a bit and change the oil. If that works, I'll drive it. If not, ...

That doesn't mean it's clean. I had some of that sealer come loose and gum up a carb once. Also, the inside of the fuel lines could be coming apart, etc. It takes a long time for an old system to run clean after it gets dirty/rusty. Once you have rust, you always have rust,
Scott

or the float is sinking?

You might check the crankcase for gasoline, and change the oil. It sounds like your carbs flooded and washed down the crankcase with a bunch of gasoline, dropping the oil pressure a lot. Alternately your fuel pump has a hole in the diaphragm.

4onthefloor,

Any ideas how to test for a hole in the diaphram?

The first sign is a crankcase full of gasoline, but if you are having carburator problems it can be difficult to tell which one is the problem. The diaphragm is open to the crankcase on the back side. One way to tell would be to do a leakdown test. Disconnect both lines, plug the outlet, and pump up the inlet to about 4 psi with a hand pump. It should hold the pressure for a long time, otherwise it leaks.

Another way to tell would be to run the engine off another pump or gravity feed it and see if you still get gas in the oil.

How can I tell there's gas in the oil? I'm guessing this is the situation because the oil is very thin and I started with 10w40.

Jerry,

10w-40 right out of the can looks pretty thin. If you have enough fuel in your motor oil to affect oil pressure, you should be able to smell it quite easily.

There's a procedure where you heat a small spoonful of motor oil with a candle while holding another flame over the sample. Any fuel in the oil will produce vapors that will flash and burn long before the motor oil itself reaches it vapor point.

It seems like it would be easier to pull the fuel pump and check it. The pumps held together with screws can be busted apart and the diaphragm visually inspected for tears.

Try the smell test for a gas odor first.

Stuart

When I walk up to the truck, it smells like gas. The tank is installed correctly with a cap and the carbs have air cleaners.

I just came in from the garage (it's cold out there). I replaced the fuel pump rather than guess if the old one was leaking and put a second filter in the line between the tank and the fuel pump. The oil definitely smells like gas. I noticed that there were several small pieces of dirt or rust in the bottom of the settlement bowl. The speed shop had cleaned that out 50 miles ago. Their assumption is that the tank is full of crap. However, I used Eastwoods cleaner and sealer last year. Rather than guess on that I'm going to go ahead and buy a new tank. I replaced the line at the bottom of the tank and the rubber line last summer. All that's left is the piece that runs along the frame. I guess I'll change that too so I have everything new. Once I have that, I'll take it back to the speed shop and let them clean and set the carbs again. They'll have to do something about the timing too. I sure hope that resolves my issues. I'm really getting sick of this mess. I just want to drive and enjoy that ole girl.