The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk time for new clutch disc?

It looks like my clutch disk needs to be replaced. what do you think?
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When you put engine back in, how do you line up th input shaft and splines?

I tried to take the flywheel bolts out, but the engine keeps cranking what do I do to get them out?

always reeplace the disc if you've got it apart - saves opening it again in 6 months - good idea to have the pressure plate and flywheel resurfaced too

need a pilot shaft to line things up before you put the trans in, like the input shaft from an old trans - to get the flywheel off, wedge the flywheel using the perimiter teeth, and use an impact wrench to break all the bolts loose

make sure the pilot bushing is ok too!!

Bill

63chevynova,


The clutch is out now, so the point is sort of moot, but from what I see, it's only about halfway worn out..if that!

If you buy a clutch kit from a big box auto outfit, they usually come with a wooden or plastic input shaft for alignment. It won't be splined as this isn't necessary.

To stop the engine from turning, fill all the cylinders with 50 wt motor oil and put the plugs back in...just kidding. Use a flat bar or screwdriver jammed into the ring gear as you loosen the bolts.

Stuart

should I go with something like this?

http://www.partsamerica.com/Product...mber=NU5551&parttype=244&ptset=A

Sorry if I am being dense here... how do I "wedge the flywheel using the perimiter teeth?"

"The clutch is out now, so the point is sort of moot, but from what I see, it's only about halfway worn out..if that!" I pulled the engine out so that I can put in a rebuilt one I bought.

Whats the ring gear?

I have a chunk of mop handle that works pretty good for lining up the hole in the clutch disk.. I bought a full kit once that came with some plastic alignment tool and it was about useless.

On both my '46 trucks and the '50 I replaced the clutch disk in, I just threaded a bolt into the back side of the flywheel a few turns.. the flywheel would turn till that bolt caught on the side of the tranny and kept the flywheel solid till the heads broke loose.

I've also found if you just put the ratchet on the head, and smack the ratchet handle a few times with a hammer, that breaks 'em loose.. sort of like a poor mans impact wrench.

I always say, if you got the tranny dropped and the pressure plate off, might as well replace the disk while you're there.

Nova, the ring gear is the teeth around the outside of the flywheel - just jam a big screwdriver or bar in the teeth and against the ground, and like Fumblin sez smuck the ratchet sharply to break the bolts loose [if you don't have an air wrench]

can't see the pic yer linkin w/o going thru the signin stuff - use anything that fits the holes snugly!

Bill

63ChevyNova,

The ring gear is the toothed gear that goes around the outside of the flywheel..the starter drive (bendix) engages it to spin the motor during starting.

I guess you linked Autozone..that's fine. The clutch kit probably will contain clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing (maybe), and a plastic alignment tool.

After you get the clutch kit, you will see how the little plastic gizmo works..it lines the clutch up with the input bearing which is in the end of the crankshaft. The plastic thingy is a clone of the snout on the tranny, but with out the splines.

The pressure plate is going to capture the clutch disc when it is tightened down..the clutch must be in the right alignment so the
tranny input shaft can slide through it into the pilot bearing.

If you are going to pull on the bolts with a ratchet, jam the flywheel from turning however you can. Fumblin46 mentions the protruding bolt deal..try that. It's a simple task..

As Bill noted, make sure the pilot bearing is up to snuff...how about the flywheel, is it checked and blue..maybe have it surfaced. From the looks of your clutch, the flywheel is probably great.


Stuart

thanks for the help everyone. I'll let you know how things go tonight after I get home.

always replace the throwout bearing too

if the truck is under hard use or there was a problem with slippage or chatter,reface and replace,,if no problem was present the pictures don,t show that much wear,,as someone stated check release bearing and pilot bearing,,if you have a brass pilot some grease on reassambly..you can align disc by leaving pp a little loose and centering disc then tighten pp..Remember blue loctite is your friend on flywheel and pp bolts...

Here are pics of the new and old crankshaft ends. Why doesn't the old one have the keys(not sure what else to call them) sticking out of it. Also, what is the pilot bushing? It isn't there, is it?
crankend_new.jpg

crankend_old.jpg

Here are some pics showing the condition of the clutchplate & flywheel surfaces and the input shaft. The throwout bearing is the bearing on the input shaft, right?
clutchplate.jpg
flywheel
inputshaft

How do I get this gasket off of the timing cover?

gasket.jpg

What is this, oil pressure sensor? How do I get it out?
plug.jpg

Thanks for the help.

first off Nova - the editors here much prefer that you link to your pics rather than posting them directly on the page - saves them server cost

top down - pilot bushing may be in the top one if that insert in the hole is bronze, bottom one might be worn to useless - unsure on the alignment pegs, but some have'em some don't - those plates look to me to have chattered at some point, and resurfacing would be a good idea, but if money's tight and there's no bad scoring sand them w/ fine emery until clean

yes that's the throw-out, which can be thrown out! and replaced - the seal is removed any ol violent way you want, as they crumple up pretty easy and there's no part of the old one to save, just take care not to damage the hole it fits in - oil sender should come out pretty easy w/ a pair of water pump pliers

Bill

Thanks for the input Bill. I'll take a look at the top hole to see if it is bronze. I figured that you would just pull the plug and seals out, just wanted to make sure.

btw - I believe the pics are linked, right click on them and go to either 'view image' (firefox) or 'properties' (internet exploror) to see they are hosted on a server I am paying for. I posted them using the IMG tags. Is there another way?

they're hosted else where but they're "inline" here - use the URL= tag so they appear here as a link rather than as an 'inline image', which adds to the "byte transfer" charge here

Bill

The top one doesn't have a bronze bushing in it. That was just grease/oil.

Thanks to everyone for their help and taking the time to explain things to me. I'm obviously very new at this and have a ton to learn. I was able to use the 'protruding bolt' method and a breaker bar to get the flywheel bolts off.

Bill, sorry about my misunderstanding regarding image posting. I guess my truck may not be the only thing I am confused about. Which is bad b/c I do some freelance webdesign.

I thought that since the images are on my server, it is charged with the byte transfer, not this site - as in 'hotlinking or direct linking.' I don't understand what the difference is between hotlinking to my server and what I'm doing here. Here is a definition I found through my webhost.

"An example of hotlinking would be someone using a 'img' tag to display an image from your site somewhere else on the net. The end result is that the other site is stealing your bandwidth."

I'm not questioning what you're telling me, I'm just trying to understand - just like I am with some of my 'dumb' truck questions.

Anyway, I'll be sure to add images the way that you have asked in the future(I fixed the ones above). I also saw the post in the IT forum about posting images. I didn't realize that people have to 'pay by the byte.' Thanks for the heads up and keeping me out of trouble with the editors. I apologize if I have created any problems.

BTW I've visited your website before - your truck is amazing.

if that's just grease in there you need to get a correct pilot bushing and install it before you put it back together - important, as it holds the little nose on the end of the trans input shaft

no problem in learning the site - it is confusing, and while your site is paying the shot for the part it does, the bolt pays for bandwidth as well as a byte transfer charge here, and having the images displayed on the page adds to the page size from some way that the forum software works - it has to account for or place the image in the page when it sends the page to the viewer, and with physically large images and maybe a few thousand views, even if it only adds 20 or 100 bytes to the file size, it adds up - hafta note that there's upwards of a million page views a month here or some such, on a site we truckers don't pay to use!

'hotlinking' is what you're doing, and on your end is a problem w/ sites that don't intend to be hosting pics for use on other sites, or w/ some hosting places that want the viewer to actually come look at the whole page and see the adverts, and using URL links prevents that hotlinking, nut also in this case eases the load here

Bill

What do you think about the surface of the flywheel? Does it need to be resurfaced?

Could the pilot bushing be on the end of the the trans input still?

63ChevyNova,

I always approach the clutch situation with the "as long as I'm in hear" attitude. If you have a few extra bucks in your kick, a resurfaced flywheel give you great "tooth" and for the cost involved, puts the finishing touch on the job.

There appears to be a brass or bronze pilot bushing in the end of the new crankshaft. It is hard to tell its condition, but again, a new one costs pennies and is real fun to put in.

Stuart

How much should I expect to spend to resurface the flywheel?

It's not as much the $ right now.. although I guess it always about the money. I borrowed the hoist from a neighbor that I don't know very well. I leave the country next Thurs and don't come back until the 1st of March. I'd feel odd asking to keep the hoist beyond next week. Looks like I may have to though.

I can't tell for sure - are you being sarcastic? I'll take a look at the new crank, take a pic and link to it. I think the bronze colored stuff is just grease from my finger.

63ChevyNova,

A flat flywheel resurface in my area is $35 clams. The pilot bearing install should be done with a driver that fits the ID and is shouldered. If you deform it, and don't notice it until you try and stab the tranny, it is not fun.

The hole in the crank snout will be bushed and the same size as the nose on the input shaft. If it isn't...there is no pilot bearing installed. The difference between the two diameters should be very easy to see with the eye.

Stuart

Thanks Stuart.

Pilot bushings are cheap (i.e. $5) and you might as well replace it while you have things apart. Getting it out is the hard part though.

Grease v. pilot bushing? The pilot bushing is a little doughnut of metal that goes into the hole at the back of the crank. If you look at the front of your transmission, the part sticking out with the gear splines on it is called the 'input shaft' The splines attach to the clutch disc. The pressure plate clamps the disc to the flywheel so that when the engine spins, the disc spins and so does your tranny. Step on the clutch pedal and you'll press on the 'pressure plate fingers' which'll release the pressure clamping down on the clutch disc.

As you might imgaine, its important to keep the input shaft perfectly centered on the crankshaft/flywheel. The way that is done is with the nub of the input shaft at the very end, the front inch or inch and a half. It actually stick into the crank shaft, thereby making sure the clutch disc is perfectly centered on the fly wheel. The hole in the crank is bigger than the nub on the input shaft. So, a 'bushing' is used to make sure everything fits just right. The purpose of the bronze oil-embedded bushing is to allow the crank to spin around the input shaft when the clutch is disengaged. If the pilot bushing is overly worn (too big) the input shaft won't be perfectly centered which can lead to a variety of problems. If the pilot bushing is too small, i.e. smashed, bent, distorted, when you step on the clutch the tranny will keep spinning, and so will your wheels-until you stall or pull the tranny again and replace the pilot bushing.

Anyhow... since it's cheap, swap it. It doesn't take long to pull and put in a new one- There are a bunch of easy ways to get it out. for example, rent a puller from Autozone. Failing that, grab a roll of TP, peel off a bunch of sheets, soak 'em in water and stuff them into the space behind the pilot bushing and keep stuffing more and more in until the bushing pops out. To put the new one back in tap it into place using a wooden dowel.

The pilot bushing is cheap and easy to find. It is a standard run of the mill small block chevy pilot bushing-

You could go the extra mile and get a 'roller bearing-bushing' for about $10 from a hotrod shop- They are very common and easy to find 'cause they are used in so many engines.

Best of luck!

Atomarc is right- When you put the new pilot bearing in you should use a pilot bushing installation tool. It looks just like the clutch alignment tool only without the splines.

I use an input shaft I cut off another tranny.

Autzone is a great resource in situations like this 'cause they will let you 'rent' the tool you need for free! You give them a deposit of the value of the tool, use it and then when you return it they give you the money back! I think NAPA might be doing that now too!

A good way to get a seal out is to drill a small (1/8th) hole in the metal part of the seal. Use a small slide hammer with a sheetmetal screw in the end. Screw the screw in and use the slide hammer to pop out the seal. Just don't drill too deep and make sure you clean out any metal shavings. Use a little grease on your drill bit to catch most of the metal chips. You might have to do it a couple of times on the same seal, but it beats prying on the shaft and bunging that up.

I was able to get a few things done tonight.
I bought the clutch kit, rented a tool to pull the pilot bushing and a harmonic balancer installer. I should be able to pick up the flywheel from the machine shop tomorrow.

Here is a pic of the new pilot bushing next to the one that is in the new crank. The inside diameter of the installed bushing is about 1/8" bigger than the new one. Any ideas why? I tried the new bushing on the input shaft and it fits nicely.

bushings

At autozone (where I got the other tools), I asked if they had a tool to help with the installation of the pilot bushing. They didn't know what I was talking about. Does the end of the bushing with the letters go towards the engine or the flywheel?

Here is a couple of better shots of the input shaft. Does everything look ok?

input shaft 1

input shaft 2

I feel real dumb asking this one. I opened up the gasket kit that I got with the rebuilt engine. There are a bunch of gaskets that I'm not exactly sure where they go. Can someone tell me what they are, so that I don't stupidly put something on without its gasket. Maybe it should be a game... I'll call it 'Name that gasket...'

gaskets

Is there a gasket that goes on the oil pump, where it connects to the block and where the end of the distributor sticks through? There doesn't seem to be one in the kit.


Also, when I put the flywheel on, should I use locktite on the bolts? What strength?

yer gettin there Nova - I can help a bit - the difference in the pilot bushings is you now have the correct one for your trans - other one must be for a different input shaft, it should be "snug" - input shaft looks fine, don't forget to replace the throwout bearing and smear a bit of oil on the shaft

easy way to get the old pilot out is find a rod or dowl that fits it as snug as possible, fill the hole 1/2 w/ grease, put the rod in against the grease and give it a good smuck w/ the BFH - if it only comes out part way, add more grease and repeat

not familiar w/ the 6cyl gaskets but 1 = water gooseneck, 4 is prolly the distributor and the bag looks like fuel pump - others will come up w/ the rest!

good work, keep on course and yer soon done

Bill

Name that gasket:

1-maybe the carbbase gasket

2&10 for the closed drive shaft U-joint cover on back side of tranny. match gasket up to see which one you need.

7- distributor

5- intake to exhaust manifold gasket

4- thermostat

No gasket for oil pump to block.

Always keep your old gaskets for reference when you replace them, so you can match them up with the new ones. Engine gasket kits come with more gaskets than you are going to use, since they make the kits for an engine application over a range of years.

The one thing you should get yourself is a shop manual for your truck and read it thoroughly before you start the job at hand. Some times it may be a little unclear, but will make more sense when you get into the process.

Jim

Name that gasket
Bag-looks like Fuel pump
7-Dist. base to manifold
2&10-6cyl water pump to block,1 with and 1 without bypass hole
5-gasket between int and exhaust on 6 cyl
1,3 and 4-diff thermostat housing gaskets

Gaskets:

1, 3 and 4 all could be Thermostat housing gaskets. The same engine came with different size and shape thermostat housings. Pick the one you need, don't worry about the extras. Alternatively, one or two of them might be carburator to intake gaskets- Those are usually a bit thicker than others and on this engine look like 3 or 4., because of the offst, 1 is definately a thermostat gasket.

2 and 10- waterpump gaskets. Two different water pumps were used on your engine, one with a bypass to get hot water straight to the heater and the other without. Match up the one you need and don't worry about the other.

5- is the gasket that goes between the intake manifold and exhaust manifold- They bolt together to heat the intake with exhuast gas. Generally a gasket with metal like that is an exhuast manifold gasket.

6- Not sure about that one, could be the oil pump housing gasket. It isn't anything that bolts on the outside of the engine that I can think of.

7- Distributor to block gasket.

8- looks like an intake or exhaust manifold to block gasket.

9- Fuel Pump to block gasket and distributor gasket. I can't tell what the third one in the bag is.

Thanks for the help with the gaskets.

For the headbolts - I have some 'automotive thread sealer tape' work, or should I buy something else?

I went back to autozone b/c they gave me the wrong tool to pull the bushing. I got the right tool, in addition to a slide hammer and a tool to put the new pushing in. Funny thing is, the tool that gave me to pull the bushing is too big for the new bushing. I guess it's a good thing the old one is worn out.

I just put oil on the threads of head bolts. Threadlock on intake/exhaust manifold bolts and permatex #2 on anything involving oil or water, ie valve cover, waterpump, timing cover, oil pan...

Don't permatex both sides of the valve cover, just the cover side. You'll have to pull the cover to adjust the valves after you've broken the engine in.

63ChevyNova,

As stated above, head bolts need to be wire brushed clean and well oiled before installing. When you torque these bolts, you want to "see" only their value, not that of the Teflon tape and gasket goop.

You started this thread out as a clutch disc question and now you're rebuilding the engine... sure are getting your moneys worth from this forum..have fun, you're doing it right!

Stuart

oops.. guess I should have started a new thread for those questions...

Thanks for the help.