The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Replacement VIN tag for 45 GMC 1/2 ton

I have somehow misplaced my original Vehicle Identification tag that mounts to the cowl of my 1945 GMC 1/2 ton pickup. It was in pretty bad shape anyway, but need to find out if anyone out there sells orinal looking replacment tags? Any help?

IANAL, but I believe that's illegal -- replacing the VIN tag, that is.

There are a couple of reputable people in the Mopar arena that reproduce fender tags, with proof that the car is what it is supposed to be, legit and it is YOUR car, of course. Perfectly legal. Note, these are NOT VIN plates...I've heard of another guy in NY State that had been doing counterfeit (as opposed to replacement) tags for late '60's GM musclecars that were originally plain Jane small-block and 6-popper cars being restified and passed off as legitimate musclecars...now THAT, is illegal. Now, whether someone is doing cowl tags for early trucks of any make is probably unlikely. The lack of profitability in that wouldn't be worth the investment to do it, I'd think. My '46 tag is virtually unreadable, and as a result, it has a VIN assigned to it from the State of Oklahoma. As long as there is a title and it is legally your truck, who cares what the numbers are. With a vehicle that's 50, 60, or 70 years old or more, sometimes that's the way things go.

on older bolts the vin# was the engine number. if you still have the original engine there should be little problem. a replacement plate could be made with all the original numbers. on later bolts, there is a confidential number on the frame that matches the vin.

counterfeit plate are usually pretty easy to spot, and i won't go into great detail about how to do it, but don't think law enforcement is totally ignorant to the practice. a few years back a pretty large chop operation was busted by a street cop who became suspicious on a traffic stop.

despite all the free advise on the internet, i suggest you contact your state department of motor vehicles, explain your situation, and follow their advise. it might be a hassle, but i suspect being married to the biggest dude with the most cigarettes in your cellblock would be a hassle as well. (or not, depending on a person's individual taste).

i am sure like the other bolter here you are honest and above board. too bad there are those who are not quite that way. that's the reason for the hassle.

do it right, and protect your investment and save yourself some grief.

just my 2 cents

Jim Carter has them listed in his catalog for a Chevy,but i did not see any GMC tags. Wouldn't hurt to call and ask them.

WOw, It never crossed my mind. From a guy that has only two wpeeding tickets in his life, never thought about it from that angle. I am sure it's somewhere in the garage, probably fell between something, and will have to tear the place apart to find it. Now that the project is finally coming along, I wanted to do so pre-planning. Plus, I have pictures of it along with the truck when I purchased it, and recall the poor condition. Nothing like having one last part, that can not be restored, or detailed like the rest of it. Anyway, i have the bill of sale, and all documents, so i will take the suggestion of contacting DMV with my problem, after I have tore my garage appart first. Hopefully I will be able to locate it, and save myself a lot of hassle.

What KOOLKAR said. VERY GOOD advice.

I often see titles for sale, usually for a very old vehicle. Now how does this fit into the whole area of VINs, and tags . Can one legally buy a "title" and use it on another vehicle. I know this wouldn't apply where I live in Canada but I am just trying to understand the system.

I went to get liscense plates for My '50-4400 the other day and had to have the VIN # verified by the State Police first. (out of state title).
The VIN # on the title didn't match the one on the VIN plate. Turned out that the # on the VIN plate was actually the chassis # and the VIN # that matched the title was on the side of the block by the distributer.

without trying to be politically correct, if you get the d.m.v. figured out, please give me a call. that said, it is a pretty good idea to try to stay in their guidelines. there are little "hints" that a vin tag isn't kosher---like "pop" rivets, or round head rivets. next is the condition of the tag itself. as far as this goes i'm personally sort of torn because i understand the vin tag will be removed for restoration of the truck, or for dipping the body in a stripping solution. the policies of the dmv, and laws of the differing states have more to do with the protection of the owner of stolen property. that's you if you one day return home and find your precious bolt has gone awol. later model vehicles have the vin plastered on everything, but the old stuff has none of the above. remember the value of a restored vehicle increases each year, as does fine wine. remember also that a vehicle is usually worth many more times it's value in parts rather than as a whole. remember also that there is a market for those parts that you yourself sought after. thieves know this. law enforcement knows this. the dmv knows this.

i ws once sort of chastised a few years back for suggesting the owners of vehicles mark their vehicles someplace other than where the factory did, and make sure the vin plate is in good shape and matching the title. some of the bolters thought that was a bad or unnecessary idea.

they have their opinions.

my opinion is that you have worked hard and long on your vehicles. you have spent alot of money, and there is an emotional attachment to the old iron. you deserve to keep it, and if it is taken and recovered, you deserve it back, and the turd who took it deserves to be the new mrs. bubba.

that's my opinion.

the selling or swapping of vin plates is in most states illegal, as it is here where i live. the protection for you is staying within the confines of the law, and doing what your state mandates. that's the best way to recover you property should it take a powder.

enough said i figure.

The easiest way to answer this. No. If you go buy a truck title and never have owned the frame, cab or anything else, you could be headed for trouble. Ask yourself "what if this VIN number shows up when someone tries to register the vehicle with this VIN ?"

If you are working with a vehicle that does not have a VIN scratched into the frame, like my 46, will it be a problem if you use the frame from another truck? Probably not. For the newer trucks with a confidential VIN, you are asking for trouble. You better have the cab or something else with the VIN number...and most importantly, the paperwork to prove you own those parts. Worst case would be the parts are stolen. Right now, the street racer Hondas and whatever else are the big focus....like the V-tech engines.....lots of Hondas get stolen, show up with out the engine....Friday night at the races, an 87 Civic shows up with a nice V-tech...

Here in MN, there is a way to get a new state assigned VIN number on your vehicle. If I were spending 20,000 to 30,000 on a street rod or a frame up restore, I would take the extra time to do the VIN right too. Ask the questions BEFORE you submit your paperwork. You can probably get all the kinks worked out before you involve your truck and the VIN number....

When I bought my 46, I looked at another 46 a guy was rodding...he said it was made up of parts from 3 trucks..none of which he had the title for....he then showed me a title that he had bought...that title was not in his name either...He wanted $4,000 for the running truck....lots of good parts, fenders, a rebuilt 400....despite the "good deal", the title part was too big a risk...I passed.

The cowl tag mounted to the pass. side of the cowl under the hood on '39-'46 trucks is not riveted on. It's screwed on with (2) small clutch heads screws. It can be removed in about 8 seconds with a screwdriver. It was not used as a VIN number as the VIN system hadn't even been invented yet. It was a serial number plate stamped with a number by the factory that identified the trucks they were building by location of assembly plant, wheelbase, weight, month of assembly, and production sequence from that specific plant. Most states titled vehicles by engine number, but some used the number from the cowl plate. There is no "secret" number stamped on the frame of '30's or '40's trucks. This frame stamping started in the late '50's or early '60's after a federal VIN system had been implemented and was being used. I believe somewhere in the middle of the AD run (1949 maybe?) was when Chevrolet started to rivet the ID plate on, on these trucks the plate had moved to the driver's side door jamb area. The '39-'46 Chev. truck cowl ID plates are commonly available as reproductions to replace the typically damaged originals which were made of very thin aluminum. No, this reproduction tag shouldn't be used in a fraudulant manner. Yes, it can be used for restoration purposes. Don't feel like a criminal if your old plate was lost or damaged beyond repair.

This is all great feedback, and after the initial responses to my question, i got a little freaked out, and spent the last few hours tearing the garage, boxes of parts etc apart. The most troubling thing is, is that I can remember during the teardown, finding some cool old wrenches, old match-boxes etc, and I wanted to find a spot to protect everything including the VIN plate, that I just removed, so that in a few years, when the truck is done, I would know where to find it. I showed this post to my wife earlier since it was upset that I could not remember where I stored it. Low and behold, my wife remembered loaning me one of her tupperware containers to put this stuff in. Once she said that, I found it up on a shelf, tucked away, just where I put it 3 years ago. INside was my original old VIN plate, S/N plate, couple of old wrenches, that matchbox, and old scraper, and an old rasp file. Pphhhhheeewwww!!!!!! I feel like I just won the lotto. What a relief.

Now that I am back to square one, and found my tatered plates, they are in really lously condition. I can read everything, but just the thought of putting it back on after every last nut/bolt is restored or replaced, it just does not seem right. SO, I am taking the advise from Kook, I will call DMV this week and ask them is there an option or not. Enough said, thanks for the help.

Since you are not in California I'd say you have a shot at getting some help from the government agencies...

-W

Vin's have been around since Day One. Titles, on the other hand, have not. In certain states (Alabama and Georgia come to mind!), titles are not necessary on vehicles beyond a certain age (I think 20 years). BEWARE the so-called "title services" operating out of Alabama and other places. Mind you, this relates in part to the VIN tag issue, but important, nonetheless...

There have been raids on places like Boyd Coddington's Rodd Shop is SoCal concerning alleged "fake" numbers being used on new street rods, etc, amongst other things. Boyd's shop was raided the first week in October by 24 cops from several state agencies, all yielding riot gear and armed to the teeth! See the latest Street Rodder Magazine for all the details. Other people in California are in a great deal of legal trouble for using these "title services", the one mentioned specifically in the article was Titles Unlimited in AL. California is essentially trying to make all of these rods, especially the fibreglass cars, register as NEW cars and not as the year they represent. I'm combining two topics here, but the result is the same...

First, take a pass on ANYTHING without a title, unless that state doesn't require one. Second, if the numbers are gone, pass. Third, ALWAYS get a bill of sale!!! That kept my butt from going to jail one time when the '63 Chevy truck I sold to a guy wound up four months later involved in a robbery after the sale. The cops came to my door one day, asked me about the truck, and I produced my copy of the BOS. Because of that, I proved I no longer owned the truck, and it had the guys' name and address on it!!! They caught him about an hour later. He never registered it in his name (Oklahoma plates stay with the vehicle, NOT the owner (I hate that!)). OK law gives you 30 days to transfer title, but sometimes people will run the vehicle until the tag expires and then title and tag it, even though the title has your notarized signature on it as the seller.

Common sense applies, above all.

Good information and discussion. Old GMC's BTW do have a number stamped on the frame that is the same as the vehicle number on the ID plate. The frame number is located on the passenger side above and forward of the front axle.

Barry, that article is not accurate as a time line goes. VIN numbers exist on the first cars Duryea, Benz, Ford, and R. E. Olds built in the late 1890's-1900's. Where they get the 1950's as a start date for VIN usage is ridiculous. In the early days, some cars used the engine number OR the body number as the ID number, but these still represented a VIN, regardless. Post-war cars were relatively standardized in placement of VIN's, be it on on of the door posts, driver door, cowl, or fender. In the '50's is when the engine number was at least a portion of the VIN, i.e. the last four to six numbers of the body VIN were stamped on the block (as on Hudson, Nash, Chrysler, and Packard, to name a few).

In 1968, it became US Federal law that VIN placement on cars be on the driver's side dash. Placement for pickups and trucks came later, in 1973. The meaning and number of values/digits were still up to the vehicle manufacturer, but the placement became uniform. Also, this is when it became mandatory to stamp the last eight digits of the VIN into the transmission and engine block.

On the other hand, VIN format standardization worldwide began in 1981, with the 17-digit number. Each digit has a specific meaning and is universal. First digit is the country of manufacture, and so forth...and the last six digits representing the build sequence. There is talk of an even longer, 24-digit VIN becoming the norm around 2010 or so. This is because they're running out of VIN combinations; obviously the same VIN can not be used on two cars, regardless of how far apart they were built, where, or when. Plus, keep in mind that trailers, RV's, heavy equipment requiring registration, and some tractors have VIN's, too, and this is another reason why.

We seem to go through this about once a year for the last 8-9 years. Usually it ends up with everyone scratching around on their frames looking for stamped numbers. I think the last time we did that, the oldest trucks we found with numbers stamped on the frames were from the task-force era. Early cars and trucks (pre-war) never had what we now call a VIN system. The manufacturing companies identified their vehicles with whatever system they wanted, which was by no means standardized and was mostly for their own use. Usually they identified them by the serial number stamped on the engine block. States titled the vehicles with whatever numbers they wanted, usually the engine number, but sometimes the number from the data plate. Some states didn't even have titles, only bills of sale. I have a bunch of '39-'46 trucks titled in my name. I would say more than half are titled by the engine number, but it depends what state the truck came from as to what number they used. The ones titled by the data plate number are fine. The ones titled by the engine number are a pain, as the original engine is usually long gone. Same problem the rodders run into when they pitch the original 6 for a V-8 and find that the number on their title no longer matches anything found on the truck as the number on the title was the old engine number.

Problems like this was why the federal Gov't. moved to a standardized VIN system in the late '50's or whenever. The manufactures had to permanently affix a serial number tag that stayed with the vehicle and was used to title it. Our arch rival (Henry Ford) was actually ahead of the game in the '20's, '30's and '40's, as he had the same number stamped on the engine, trans. and frame. (top of left front frame rail) Chev. trucks of these same years had no numbers stamped on the frame and the number stamped on the trans. does not match the engine number. The serial numbers and date codes stamped and cast on the engine and trans. were more for GM's record keeping and use in troubleshooting manufacturing problems than for easy identification of stolen parts or titling. I don't think parts theft was the problem in the '40's that it is now. By around 1950, Chev. trucks had the VIN tag permantly affixed (riveted) to the cab, and a matching number stamped in the frame by the late '50's. This number was then used on the title. Definite improvement over the old way. The modern 17 digit system is even better and tells much about the vehicle. Many times you need this number when ordering parts to properly identify the vehicle's engine etc..

I know this is getting long, but a quick story here, A few years ago a friend of mine decided to track down the Model A coupe that he had as a teenager. ('63 or so) He tracked the car from owner to owner and found it in a barn with no engine. It had been there since 1972 or something. He bought the car back and transferred the title and started to restore it with a replacement engine that he rebuilt. Soon he got a call from our state saying there were now 2 Model A's both titled using the same number. Turns out that someone had taken the engine from his old Model A and rebuilt it as a replacement for their Model A 20 years ago or so. They had back then had the state retitle their car using the new replacement engine number, as the engine no longer matched the frame. My friend offered to buy and/or trade engines with this other Model A owner to get all the correctly numbered parts back on his car, but no go. The state had to step in to settle it and ended up siding with my friend who had the matching frame and title, but not the matching engine. The state then told the other owner he would have to retitle his car again using his frame number, which is what he had in the first place over 20 years ago. He was not happy. Titling by the engine number was (and still is) a very confusing thing.

hey you guys, barry has a good point. don't go around feeling like a criminal---that is unless you are one. there are procedures in nearly every state for lost/missing vin tags/titles, etc.. most involve a simple inspection by a police officer, and if need be, the issueing of another number or title. the process is generally painless, just alittle incovienient. there is NO REASON to get paranoid or feel like you are sneaking around. from a legal standpoint, thieves don't call the cops for inspections, and the dmv and everybody else involved know that. the concept from my point of view is protection for you, and alittle less hassle in your life-that's it.

if you are gonna buy a truck for parts, and there's no title, then get a bill of sale, and check the sellers i.d. and have it on the document. there is one other little point. from a cops point of view, how often is anyone gonna look at the vin? not very is the short answer---unless there have been thefts of older vehicles.

relax already. it ain't like a swat team is gonna come crashing through the garage door. it is often easier to get the proper stuff before you need, or are forced to. if the vehicle is ever towed for any reason, like god forbid, an accident, then the vin might get checked for impound records. other than that, well, just relax!

In most states, you can get your vehicle retitled if there is an error on the title or if it is titled on the engine number and you want to swap engines. In Missouri, you have to have an officer of the law inspect the vehicle and sign a form listing the changes. Contact your local licensing office for details. I've found that if you're willing to try to play by the rules, the DMV types are more likely to help.

Obviously, every state has their procedures, duh. The People's Republik of Kalifornia is just one of the worst. You're right, there isn't a rash of hot pre-55 GM trucks out there, but...! Better to be informed, equipped, and ready if a problem arises!

A large-caliber weapon helps, too.

Have we beat this into the wall yet?

Yep, we beat this one pretty good, but I think it's an important subject and that's why it comes up so often. I guess the moral here is to make sure you get the title to your old vehicle straightened out as soon as possible after buying it. Don't buy a project truck and then pour time and money into it for 5 years without getting the title squared away first. If you have an old truck ('20's-'40's) check your title and see if there are any numbers somewhere (engine, data plate, frame etc.) on the truck that match the title. If you have a newer truck, ('50's or later) make sure the number on your title matches the VIN tag. If it doesn't, try to figure out why and take care of straightening out the title problem before you put thousands of dollars into a truck that may not even be yours legally.