The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline Wheels/tires safety question

Looking for opinions from you more experienced folks.

Today I took the truck for it's first highway test after a complete driveline swap from the stock "36 driveline. Still running a solid axle up front, but everything is new. King pins, leafs, shackles, leaf bolts, tie rod/ends, drag link/ends, Also tapered bearings with disc conversion. The only thing that hasn't been replaced are the stock wheels, tires, and steering box, which is getting a rebuild/replacement this winter.

The drive went well, better than expected. The truck tracked straight, and I was doing at least 75 at one point. Yet I was still nervous, which is where I'm looking for opinions and advice.

My question is whether or not my stock artillery wheels and bias ply tires are safe at that kind of speed. Despite seemingly good results, in the back of my mind I still wonder about the safety. Wheels are in excellent condition, tires as well. But seems to me neither were ever intended to go that fast. I've searched high and low for radial replacements, but nobody makes a thin 17" classic looking radial, much less with whitewalls.

So, looking for thoughts on highway speed safety with stock wheels and Firestone bias ply tires. Thanks.

The only things I could find in web searches indicates that your Firestone bias ply tires are manufactured and sold with the understanding that they are for use primarily as display show pieces on restored or vintage vehicles, with limited driving usage at highway speeds of 65mph and less.

If you want a tire that's going to be designed to run at regular highway speed levels and not limited usage, you're going to need to find an appropriate radial and likely some newer wheels to run them on. I didn't dive in to see if there are similar size/style radials out there, but guessing that if they do exist, they are going to be $$$$$.

Bias ply tires will follow grooves and imperfections in the road. At high speeds it is quite scary.

When I switched to Diamondback radial tires it was a night and day difference in performance and handling. And you can still get the look of bias ply tires if that's what you want.

They are the best tires I have ever had on my Cadillac in 25 years of ownership. And I have had the repop Firestones from Coker on it in the past.

If you're not interested in the bias ply look and don't want wide white wall tires, then find a modern radial tire of the appropriate size and run it. Your handling and performance will improve dramatically.

If you must have a bias ply look or want a wide white wall tire then pay the extra money and install a set of Diamondback tires. You won't regret it.


Look at their Auburn deluxe. It comes in a 750x17 size which will closely mimic the tall thin tires you want with the pie crust edge

www.dbtires.com

Personally I would limit highway speed to 55 to 60 mph...but not just because of wheels and tires. As for "experience", I've been in one very serious wreck and it taught me how quickly at 60 mph things can go from okay to a ride in an ambulance with many broken bones, serious cuts, blood transfusions and a couple of weeks lost in a coma.

Otto, I checked with a Diamondback rep at Spring Carlisle and they don't make my size in a radial. Nobody does. He did mention something about possibly doing a special order, but it didn't sound promising, and I could just see nothing but dollar signs. They are already expensive. Can't imagine what a special order like that would cost.

Not planning to do a lot of highway driving. I just want to know the limitations of what I have. I searched as well and found no official speed rating on the tires. 65 is plenty. Just need to know if I can at least do that for short periods.

Jon G, was your accident due to a mechanical failure in an antique vehicle?

What size do you need?

Here's a link to their 17" offerings.

The Auburn Deluxe is available in 700x17 which should be about the size of the originals.

https://dbtires.com/product-category/tires/size/17/

Will fit 5" rims .

Your entire truck is not safe to drive at 75 MPH. 65 MPH is seriously pushing it.
I have had a slew of '49-'53 3100s and pushed them well over 75 from time to time. Was it safe? Not at all. I did it to see if I could, then thought about what would happen if I had to make an emergency stop and regained my sanity and slowed down.
I am no role model in regard to this topic but do feel inclined to offer my opinion as to what is or is not safe with these old relics.

I have radials on my '37, it will run 75 all day long with the 250, but I tend to stay around 65. I know the truck won't like an evasive move or lane change, even with all the improvements I have made.

The wheel you run were made when speeds were way slower, are they riveted together? That alone would make me think about speeds, straight-line would be OK, but what about a hard turn or heavy pot hole. Maybe look into a second set of tires and wheels, long distance driving for the newer ones, around town for the OEM's.

My biggest fear is the steering column, three point seat belts were a must have.

They are 525/550-17. The rims are only about 3.5", maybe 4" wide max. That's the problem. Can't find 17" radials for a rim that narrow.

No, it wasn't a mechanical failure in an antique vehicle...it was less than a year old and this was in the 1960s. In plain terms, danger is danger and speed is speed. 60mph is 88 feet per second whether you're in a Mercedes or on a slip and slide.

Joe, the wheels are riveted together with 14 rivets. That's why I'm wondering about the wheels themselves. I keep going back and forth on it. On one hand, they are '36 technology when speeds were much lower. On the other hand, two, and even three piece wheels are still made today. Wheel Vintiques makes an artillery wheel that appears to be constructed the same way. I also see lots of low profile aluminum wheels that are bolted or welded. My wheels seem pretty stout, but I'm not an engineer, which is why I brought up this entire topic. One other thought I had was road conditions back then compared to today. Granted there's a big difference in speed. Seems lateral forces and heavy braking would be a bigger concern than the speed itself, but I don't know.

And I share your fear of that steering column right there at my chest/face. Another reason I don't want to go fast in this truck, but we do have a lot of non-interstate highways with relatively low traffic where 55-65 mpg is the norm. Using them every now and then will be handy.

Dan, if you come across that information again, could you post it? I couldn't find anything online, so I called Coker and talked to a rep since they sell the Firestones. Take everything with a grain of salt, as we all know what "customer service" has become these days, but here is what he said. Take it for what it's worth, and decide for yourself whether it's good information or not. Also, to be clear, this isn't ME saying this, it's him, and I'm in no way posting this in an effort to promote, defend, or uphold what he said. I'm seeking answers myself, not an argument!

So that all being said, the rep claims that even though there are no official speed ratings for the bias ply tires, the DOT requires all on-road tires, regardless of it's construction, to be at least "Passenger", or "P" rated, which he says is 93 mph. I then said just to be clear, you're saying I can safely travel at 65mpg on these bias ply tires without fear of a failure due to more speed than the tire is capable of handling. And his response was "oh yes, absolutely".

I'll say again...HE said that, and I'm in no way trying to defend his words, or argue in any way. I'm just adding what he said to the conversation, and everyone can come to their own conclusions. For me personally, it makes me feel slightly better, but not much I will look for further confirmation.

Here's what Corky Coker told the president of the Peach State Cadillac Club some years back.

"If you're restoring a car to showroom condition for judging at concourse d'elegance shows, install Coker bias ply tires. If you actually drive your collector car regularly or do a lot of driving tours, buy Diamondbacks."

The Firestone bias ply tires sold by Coker are made on the original Firestone stamping machines from 70 years ago or whatever. The machines are worn out. Coker pays a royalty to use the Firestone name but the tires are not made by Firestone.

The tires can generally not be properly balanced to the degree you would expect from modern tires because they aren't perfectly round to start with. You can drive them on the freeway (I did for years) but you are not getting optimal performance or handling from the tires. They aren't even as good as they would have been in 1956 due to the wear and tear on the molding machines over the last 8 decades.

I'm surprised the Auburn Deluxe won't work on your rims. Are yours 4" or something? I would call DB and speak with someone about your specific rims. I know that tires spec'd for 5" rims can be installed safely on 4.5" rims. I have them on my Packard.

RB - I'll have to get back with you on where I found the info I posted above about the tire use info as I was doing that search on my phone and didn't save it in a screenshot. I'll get back on that in the near future.

Otto - RBs '36 original stock 17" wheels had a tire mounting rim width of just 3.62" according to the 1936 Chevrolet Truck Data PDF (screenshot of tire/wheel data below).

At basically 3-5/8" width, they are significantly not nearly wide enough to properly support a radial with a minimum wheel width requirement of 5"s.

In RBs case, I think the only way he is going to get a radial tire like the Diamondback on his truck is to invest in some very pricey and probably custom made wheels, to keep it with the 17" diameter, or reduce the wheel diameter to 15" to find some currently available 5" wide reproduction artillery rims (still pricey) to give his truck the safety of a modern wheel/tire combo for sustained regular highway driving. Note that there may be 16" artillery wheels available, but I haven't actually seen those yet to state for a fact they exist. I did see the 15" x 5" artillery wheels and cango back and look up that source and provide a link if RB would like it.

Wow! That is skinny. I see how that limits your tire choices to repop bias plies.

Wheelsmith makes 16"x4.5" Smoothies, on which some narrow DBs could be mounted.

When I bought this truck, the first thing my wife said was "I love those wheels, you have to keep them". I've gone out of my way to do just that, including 6 lug disc conversion up front, and finding a 6 lug rear. So I'm pretty stuck on keeping them.

I'm considering new wheels/tires for if/when I want to drive further, but in reality, I don't want to travel freeway speeds anyway if I don't have to so I'm not sure the expenditure would be worth it. For now I guess I'm stuck with my bias ply's, I just want to know their real-world limits. I have a good set that seem to be balanced well enough to do 75 without any noticeable vibrations or wobbles. So I should be OK until I need a new set. I won't be going that fast again in this truck even if I do hit the highway. 65 is nerve-wracking enough.

In the meantime, I'm going to bug Diamondback to make a narrower 17" radial.

Well at least you've got it geared and with enough brakes that 55-60 is a reasonable reality. Not burning up the road, but not stuck at 48-52mph either, and you've got some room if you need to pass someone or accelerate out of a situation for a minute.

RB -- A lot of good input above. I think you can boil this conversation down to this (in my opinion ...):

Our universe (the Old Truck-o-Verse) is one of compromise/trade-offs. In your case, if you want to keep the wheels, you have to accept the limited tire availability... and the speed restrictions that go along with that.

In my opinion, these old trucks really have no reason or need to be in the 70 MPH plus speed range. Granted, even the mildest of mods (like mine, for example -- just an engine swap to a 261 and a 4.11 ratio upgrade in the rear axle) we do just to be ability to drive in modern traffic) give us the able to not only stay up with traffic and not be rolling road blocks, but also the ability to hit top speeds above 70 mph. But as stated above and elsewhere by smarter people than me ... just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should.* Next time you're above 65 MPH, think about those bias plys ... those nearly 90-year old rivets holding the wheel together ... that solid steel rod aimed right at your chest .... See what I mean? So yes, your truck will probably be able to go above 70 mph. but you won't like it.

My truck (I'm on newish 17-inch bias plys, too) can do 72 mph. It was NOT an enjoyable experience (For the ODSS members, I was on MD 32 going by Ft Meade trying to keep up with Sweet going to Bill Marlow's). I find a more sedate 60-63 or so is enjoyable for me AND the truck.

I find that cruising at about 62 MPH is just fine. Driving an 18 (22, actually) wheeler, hauling heavy equipment got me used to ignoring the impatient drivers stacking up behind me because ... gasp!! ... I was only doing the speed limit. They'll be fine until they can safely pass you and live their hurried little lives.

IMO, those who desire to cruise around at 70-80 MPH all day (even if you've upgraded to a v8, automatic tranny, radials, IFS, disc brakes, 3-pt harness, yadda yadda yadda) ... you're in the wrong vehicle. Go get a Corvette.

Just sayin'

Hope you've checked the age of your tires. When I bought my last truck, 1953 Ford F-100, it had tires that looked brand new. When I checked the DOT age on the tires they were 20 years old. The spare tire was 22 years old. Hated having to do it but I pulled them off and got some Diamondback radials. Handling improved 100%. Still got those tires out in the barn. Anyone interested? They're free.

I have always been of the mind of that it’s your vehicle and you are the are writing the checks, so do what you want. I would point out that however that the whole point of an old or ancient truck like my 1936 GMC is that it was slow when built and I am in no hurry to get where I am going. I enjoy getting to the sweet spot of 35 MPH, listening to the gear whine. Try to enjoy the journey, it is over before you know it.

RB, your truck originally came with 5.50x17 tires. Your current 5.25/5.50 tires are actually a blend of the 5.25 tire used on the Standard cars and 5.50 tires used on the Master Cars & 1/2 ton trucks in the mid 1930's. Tire manufactures blended those two tire sizes to reduce inventory and let one tire fit both applications (more than likely during WWII rubber shortage).

Mike B

Having experienced more than my share of those "OH S**T" moments over the past 65+ years I've been driving, when running a few MPH above what should have been a safe and sane speed and having it turn into terrifying drama, and the painful recovery and permanent disabilities afterwards, I've come to the conclusion that a car, truck, motorcycle, or even a pair of roller skates can be just waiting patiently for the opportunity to kill me. Ditto for most animals, like dogs, horses, cattle, etc.

"Ve get too soon oldt, und too late schmart"! Slow down and enjoy the scenery as it goes by at a sane, safe speed- - - - -heaven, or the other place, will still be there when we arrive in due time- - - -there's no point in rushing the arrival by "pushing the envelope"!
Jerry

Jerry, I ride motorcycles and horses too. Not so much roller skates, though. And we don't just ride horses like most "normal" horseback riders do. We seek out the steepest, rockiest, narrowest trail with all kinds of obstacles imaginable. Seems everything I like to do is dangerous. Unfortunately....or fortunately, depending upon your point of view, safe and mundane hobbies like stamp collecting and gardening just never appealed to me.

As for the truck, I don't know what "safe and sensible" would be in terms of speed. I'm sure opinions vary. I know for sure 75 is not! But I do think 55 in the right conditions is reasonable. Driving these old trucks at any speed is a bigger risk than a modern vehicle, I suppose. I guess we all need to do our own risk/reward analysis on how far and how fast we drive our antique vehicles. They're just too darn fun to not drive!