Who made that particular head? Aluminum and 45 degree intake ports. Does it have combustion chambers or just a flat surface?
I saw a red '35 Chevy coupe at a car show in Houston 10 years ago. It had a 302 with a 12 port Fisher head on it. Short stack Hilborne injector bodies using modern electronic injectors. The owner was from Pearland Texas. He said he had bought the engine from AJ Foyt's garage many years before.
Last edited by Fibonachu; 12/07/20233:40 AM. Reason: embedded images
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Nick Arias Jr. (or his company did.) Flat surface.
They had been using 2 head bolts for a lifting chain to move the engine around. So I figured the head could use a re-torque. I had to hang around all day while the AC guys replaced the evaporator in my attic. Since I had some time, I popped the head off while I was at it to have a look inside. Updated page three with the corresponding pictures.
Last edited by Fibonachu; 12/07/20233:38 AM. Reason: Embedded images
Text below shows the connection between Nick Arias and the 12 port head. It was written by Herbert Hall and originally printed in Vol. 2, Issue 3 of the 12 Port News sometime in the early 80s.
Quote
Way back in issue #3, we left the story of Harry Warner and Wayne Manufacturing somewhat unfinished. We did cover the fact that sadly, Mr. Warner is no longer with us. However, we never went on to cover the story of what ever happened to those patterns for the Wayne GMC 12 port heads. In this installment of our continuing series we'll be taking a look at part of the story that deals with the Wayne Chevy 12 port cylinder heads, after Harry Warner. I would like to thank Mr. Nick Arias for spending the time to talk with me and to help fill out the details of this aspect of the 12 port story.
First, we need to go way back a bit and fill in a little of the history we left out in issue #3. The time is the Fall of 1952. In September of that year Nick Arias and Bob Toros returned to Southern California from the Korean War. Nick and Bob obtained the GMC engine that had formerly belonged to "Mr. GMC," Kenny Bigelow. They purchased it from Kenny's mother after he was so tragically killed at El Mirage earlier in 1952. During the Winter of 1952 and early 1953, Bob and Nick worked on that engine. From time to time, they needed parts and this brought Nick Arias and Harry Warner together, as Nick was out to visit Harry and to buy some parts. From this contact, Harry Warner offered Nick Arias a job, and after thinking it over for awhile, Nick accepted the position of General Manager of Wayne Manufacturing in the early Spring of 1953. It was at this same time that Harry Warner also offered a position to Bob Toros, who also came to work for Wayne Manufacturing that Summer. One of the first projects that demanded Nick's attention was the engine for the 1953 Indy 500 attempt. This was the engine that was used in the Jorge Daponte car, the "Wayne Manufacturing Special." (featured on the cover of Issue #3)
Nick Arias and Bob Toros both continued to work for Harry Warner for the next few years. Bob and Nick were responsible for the majority of engine and head work. Nick recalls them building some pretty famous pieces of machinery, including the first Ike Iacono engine that is so well known. When Nick and Bob first came to work for Harry Warner, Harry was still located at his house on Encinal Avenue in La Crescenta, California. They helped Harry move from there to 1023 South Broadway in Burbank in 1953, and later also helped him move to 432 South Victory Blvd in Burbank, in 1955. This was a productive time for both Wayne Manufacturing and for Nick Arias and Bob Toros. They still had Kenny Bigelow's stock head engine; Nick also had a Horning 12 port GMC. They did well on the Dry Lakes and at Bonneville, running #1 for two years in a row for the Russeta Timing Association.
In late 1955 and early 1956, Nick and Bob wanted to purchase Venolia Pistons from Frank Venolia. However, Frank was upset with Nick and Bob over some matter, so Harry Warner served as the mediator and got everyone together on the deal. It was at this time (early 1956) that all three men; Nick Arias, Bob Toros and Harry Warner, purchase Venolia Pistons from Frank Venolia. Harry Warner's participation was merely to help Bob and Nick purchase the company from a partner in it with them. Up to this time, Frank Venolia had never really had a formal business. There simply wasn't enough of a market for racing pistons and there were many established piston companies like "Jahn's" that were in the regular piston manufacturing field. As another bit of history, Frank Venolia owned a 2000 to 3000 Sq. Ft. building that was in back of his house. This building fronted on Fletcher Drive in Los Angeles. Frank rented a potion of this building out to Wayne Horning, so Wayne could have an address on a Front Street. Frank Venolia continued to use the back portion of the building for his piston business, as well as his regular machine shop trade.
At first, in early 1956, Nick and Bob rented some space at 432 So. Victory Blvd. in Burbank, from Harry Warner. They formed "Venolia Pistons" and began the start of what would become a major supplier of racing pistons to all of America.. Bob and Nick can be credited with making "Venolia Pistons" a national brand name product. Later in 1956, Nick and Bob continued the business, but moved across the street from Wayne Manufacturing to 439 South Victory Blvd., Burbank, California. At this address Bob and Nick set up another company, Toros Equipment Co. When Bob Toros moved across the street he took with him the blueprints and patterns for the Wayne Chevy 12 port cylinder head. Bob purchase these from Harry Warner, and Toros Equipment Co., continued to make the "Wayne" Chevy heads available to the racing community. Naturally, Toros Equipment Co. prominately featured, Venolia Racing Pistons, as Bob Toros continued to own Venolia and Toros after Nick Arias left to get married in 1957. Toros Equipment Co., went through some changes over the years. In 1959, Bob Toros brought in Bill Campbell and at that time, Bob and Bill formed "Tor Cam Industries." Bill Campbell stayed about 2 years and when he left, Joe Pisano came on board. At first, Joe sever mainly as the salesman. Enter Nick Arias once again. In late 1962, Nick bought back in with a full 1/3 partnership, along with Bob Toros and Joe Pisano, in what was then "Venolia Racing Pistons." All the efforts of Tor Cam Industries were merged into the one business of Venolia Racing Pistons. By that time, the market for 12 port Chevy heads had fallen off seriously, but more importantly Venolia Racing Pistons was making a major move other than the realignment of the partners. It was in 1963, that Venolia Racing Pistons first came out with forged pistons. Previously, pistons had always been cast. This a major technical breakthrough, and further established Venolia Racing Pistons on the top of the field. This 3 way partnership continued until 1969, when Nick Arias left to form "Arias Industries." At that time Bob Toros and Joe Pisano bought up Nick's 1/3 share and have continued to and currently still do, own Venolia Racing Pistons as a two way partnership.
Nearly all of our readers are familiar with Arias Industries and the racing and engineering accomplishments that Nick Arias has achieved. Arias Industries had produced such notable pieces of racing machinery, as the 8 Liter Hemi Chevy engine, which Nick built with Rudy Moeller. There was also the 8 Liter Arias Racing Engine which is still strongly involved in the racing business. Arias will soon release a 10 Liter Ni Cam V-8 engine, and Nick recently informed us that he will be sprint car racing this coming Summer (1982) with a special new V-6 Ni Cam racing engine, patterned after the 10 Liter Ni Cam model that has not yet been released. This V-6 engine will be in the 350-400 cu. in. range and have about 70 cubic inches per cylinder. This v-6 monster is only 19 inches long and we are all certain it will be the subject of much discussion, photograph and magazine articles. Nick Arias has been involved with the racing and performance scene for many years. He is now been intimately involved with so many with so many prominent racing businesses, starting with "Wayne Manufacturing," then "Venolia Pistons," then "Toros Equipment" (out of which came which came Tor Cam Industries and later the reformed Venolia Racing Pistons), then once again "Venolia Racing Pistons" and lastly and currently, "Arias Industries."
What ever happened to those patterns and blueprints for the Wayne Chevy 12 port heads? Well, Bob Toros still has them safely tucked away. As you may have noticed in the "12 Port News," Bob is considering remanufacturing those Wayne Chevy 12 Port Heads, this time in aluminum, if sufficient interest is generated. In another segment of this series we'll visit with Bob Toros and talk about those last years of production of the Wayne Chevy 12 port under "Toros Equipment Co." including the 12 port head for the 261 Chevy six as well as a report on the current remanufacturing plans.
Last edited by Peggy M; 12/06/20236:48 PM.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
It must just be the pictures. but it looks to me like valves would hit the non-dished area of the pistons at the end of the exhaust stroke/start of the intake stroke. The dished part of the piston doesn't look wide enough to provide space for the valves.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
I'll check everything when I go to set the lash. If it helps any, the pistons are 70 down in the hole.
I have a lot of faith in the guy that spec'd/built that engine. Afterall, it was what he did for a living. I miss my friend, Bill Schultz!! https://www.nhra.com/news/2022/heroes-lost
Down 70 thousandths would probably do it. I couldn't tell from the pictures.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Bill, you called it. I started setting lash, cold at roughly 0.016 intake, 0.020 exhaust just as a starting point. Did 1I E, 2I, 3E, 4I, 5E. Rolled it 180 to get the rest and was stopped before #6 TDC. Only by about 1-3 degrees. So, I backed everything off, and rolled the crank around to make sure it wasn't some new bolt I put into the timing cover, even though I knew it wasn't. I made a crank timing trigger mount off the front timing cover and had replaced a cam cap bolt with a slightly longer one. The crank went around with no resistance (minus the rings and pistons.) So I verified the cam firing order since Bill liked having his cams ground by Donnie Johansen and those race car guys like mixing things up. He already got me with the standard firing order plug wires on the Ford 302 when the dumb thing had an H.O. cam. I think he did that on purpose just to test me!
Everything was standard firing order. So, I zero lashed cylinder 1 and rolled the crank over. The exhaust valve hit the piston. So, I backed that off and zero lashed the #3 exhaust. Same thing. So, I'm going to assume all exhaust valves are going to interfere. My thoughts are that I might need to find an 0.030 or 0.040 head gasket since the pistons are already 0.070 in the hole? That would give me something close to 0.100 exhaust valve clearance from the piston. Thoughts anyone? I'd really like to keep away from tearing into that block.
I could pull the timing cover to see if he set the cam straight up or degreed it.
I don't believe Schultz was hands on for this build, so whoever built it might have missed a spec somewhere? Things happen.
Last edited by Fibonachu; 12/07/20233:44 AM. Reason: Embedded pictures
Simply "no interference" won't be sufficient- - - -you'll need a bit of safe zone at the minimum clearance point. I like to use .060" as a minimum. Start a few degrees away from the expected minimum clearance point with a weak spring on the valve, and push the valve down with a lever until it contacts the piston. Use a dial indicator on the spring retainer to measure the travel. Turn the crankshaft 5 degrees and measure again. "Rinse and repeat!" It's not uncommon for the intake valve to outrun the piston near the top of the stroke and the closest contact possibility to happen after TDC if the cam has a pretty radical rate of lift. It might be necessary to do a little flycutting on the pistons if a thicker head gasket can't create enough clearance, or even run the cam a few degrees retarded. Advancing a cam increases low end torque- - - -retarding it helps top end HP. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I'm shooting for a minimum of .100 exhaust valve clearance. I forgot about the current headgasket thickness. I might have to get a .130 or more thick gasket. I'll start tearing into it in a few days. I have to go wire a '65 Coronet tomorrow and smog the wife's car. That'll take up most of my day.
Glad you found the interference before you hit the starter. Especially with that rare and beautiful head.
What is the cover in this picture for?
And is the little gizmo in the top of the distributor hole just to tell the electronics cylinders 153 vs. 624?
Thanks for all the pictures, although I may have to replace my keyboard because of all the drool in it.
Last edited by Fibonachu; 12/07/20233:45 AM.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
That cover is over the end of the camshaft on the timing cover. Just the way that particular cover was made. On the cackle car we used that spot to run the fuel pump. Which on a Chrysler Donovan timing cover, it uses a pretty big candlestick. The drive is a 3/8' hexagonal rod. You can see the set up right under the blower idler pully.
Gizmo is a cam position sensor (CMP.) The one I was building on top of the timing cover is crank position sensor (CKP.)
Also could be used to drive a fuel pump on a mechanical (like Hilborn) injection system.
Last edited by Peggy M; 12/07/20233:23 PM.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
That's exactly what's on the Chrysler. Donovan cover, candlestick, Hilborn fuel pump. Missing in the picture was the blower and bird catcher. Or maybe it was a smooth bug. I think Donovan made the cover big enough so that you could degree the cam in the car. Either way, on the 302, it's just a cap. I was measuring for making a bracket.
I pulled the cover and the cam is set straight up. Ordered some valve test springs and will get some numbers when they arrive.
While poking around the internet, found these little gizmos. https://www.lindytools.com/ihpc Might just be what the doctor ordered.
I wouldn't have even looked in that direction unless you had mentioned it. Once I started reading up on it, it was like it was created for my mess. So, kudos warranted and sent your way.
It's sitting on my work bench waiting for me to fix the valve to piston clearance. I'm also starting to consider their dash. Just to half the amount of sensors I have to find a place for on the block. I'm almost thinking of making the dash gauge less and having that dash swing down during operation. That might start some fun conversations wherever I go. Maybe a fuel gauge between the seats where no one can see it.
On the whole I am not a big fan of all digital gauges like that, but it is nice and compact and gives you ready access to all the info/controls you need.
Some kind of a swing-away panel would be cool, but I would be concered about stressing the wiring harness connector.
Those valve stem fly cutters are pretty cool. I don't have a particular need for them, but I still like the idea.
As long as the cable is secured properly, there shouldn't be any stress on the connector. That's my daily world anyway. Things that move and their connectors.
Okay. Let's see. Intakes are fine, exhaust is causing interference. Maybe Bill got aggressive on the exhaust cam lobes when he had it made. Minimum clearance, intake, at any position on the crank, was .060. With the exhaust rocker at .110 lash, I end up with zero clearance on the exhaust valve. My head gasket is approximately .060. Exhaust valve is 1.75" diameter. I didn't measure, but eyeballing in the intake port, there is roughly 1/8' between intake valve and cylinder. I'm assuming the exhaust would be similar. I stuck a feeler gauge between the piston and wall, and best I can tell, I have just over a 1/4" until I hit the compression ring from the top of the piston. Since this isn't a high revving engine, I'm thinking I can get away with another .080, AFTER I cut the piston .110 just to get zero lash, fudge in my hot lash of .020 (or less because of aluminum head on steel block?) So that means a total crescent shaped cut of .190 deep, leaving plenty of piston underneath. I don't think groove depth will be an issue, either.
Worst case, I kill the piston and have to replace the six. Or tag a valve and have to replace valves. But, ain't that what makes these one off special builds fun? I wonder if Bill had all this planned out already when he was building the thing. I gotta think he did, but no one will ever know! Everyone associated with building this thing have passed in the last few years.
2 new head gaskets are on order. The fly cutter also on order. Plan is to cut the .110, set zero lash and check exhaust clearance again before deciding final depth. I should be right where I started with zero clearance exhaust.
How does .080 piston to exhaust valve clearance sound for a late 50's GMC 302? More? Less?
I think I determined this block was built for an OEM GM head. Rough calculation had the static compression at well over 12:1. The lift on the exhaust valve is .610", intake .570". Running the stock GM head numbers brought the compression down to the 8's. And I think I'm safe in assuming the GM rockers aren't 1:1.75. So, after I open it up check to see what the rod length is, I think a new set of pistons and either a new cam or a regrind will be in order if I want to use the big shiny aluminum head. I do have the old cam and old rods with some Jahn's pistons attached, in case it can be reground and I need more OEM style rods. Won't know until I open it up and see what I got in there. Rabbit hole, here i come!
Without knowing the size of the depression in the top of the pistons you are using, I did a quick calculation of the static compression ratio on a 302 using a 4" flat top piston, a head gasket with a "bore" of 4.060 and a compressed thickness of 0.060", your head with no combustion chamber and a stock 4" stroke. Any oversized bore would increase the compression ratio. Adding in valve timing to compute dynamic compression ratio (see explanation here is WAY beyond my pay grade.
Here are some computed static compression ratios varying the distance "down in the hole" to the top of a flat piston.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
All things remaining the same, I'm aiming for .440" down in the hole.
The dish is roughly 32.68 cc (I added 4.16 cc for the exhaust valve relief I would have to put in, which brought the total cc to 36.84.) Stroke - 4" Bore - 4.060" (Apologies to everyone following along with the various numbers I was giving. I finally broke out my bore gauge.) Piston to deck - .070" Gasket bore 4.060" was the number I used. Gasket compressed - .060" I used 0 for the head chamber, even though the valves drop in some. Maybe offset by the spark plug divot.
That got me 12.84:1 with what I had sitting in front of me.
If I went to a .125" copper gasket, it would only get me down to 11.82:1
Redid the calculator using 118 cc head chamber, which was a number I found for a stock GM head. It brought me down to the mid 8's? I didn't write it down. So my guess was he started building this motor and acquired the Howard's head sometime after and bolted it on. I'm sure his plan was to go in and rework the block for the aluminum head, he just hadn't got to it by the time Covid started messing with him. So, with all the stuff I have, I'm shooting for some pistons close to .440" in the hole which will get me mid to upper 8's? Plus plenty of clearance for the exhaust valve chase. I haven't decided what to do about cam yet. Even though it's going to have some pretty hefty valve lift, I might try to run it first. Just for giggles.
I figured out who ground the current cam so I might give them a call next week and see if I can't get a cam card. Otherwise, I'm not sure if anyone close by has a cam doctor or similar.
I'll also need to talk to the piston company for recommendations since the combustion chamber would most likely resemble a square round cylinder. Flat top piston, flat head, a lot of flatness going on in there.
I popped the pan off last night even though I don't have it on a stand yet. Rods are 7", the exhaust valve is 1.75" and the intake is 2.125" In a few minutes, I'll run over to the shop and get the stand. I want to get a piston out and see who manufactured it and all the other neat stuff I can see inside. Maybe figure out where the oil pickup sits, how many quarts I can get in this and set the dipstick accordingly. I was also giving thought to ways of reducing rocker ratio. It can be done, but would require 12 rockers and new towers to relocate the rocker shaft.
Just curious: What lubricates the pushrod to rocker arm interface and the rocker arm to valve tip interface? Those are very pretty rockers, but how do they lube each end?
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Pressure rail to head, head to rocker shaft. I believe the oil goes from rocker shaft to the rocker, then to a point out near the roller. The is also an oil hole on the pushrod side of the rocker. I believe it sprays at the junction of pushrod and adjuster cup.
I'll know when I prime the thing with the valve cover off.
What's the crankshaft rod journal size? The Nissan H beam connecting rods I'm using on my Frankenstein stovebolt stroker are a few thousandths under 6.5", but they've got a pretty small diameter bearing. They're rated for up to 1K horsepower, though, and they're not terribly expensive.
How about running a Chevy small block V8 4" diameter forged piston with a shorter compression height and the original connecting rods? Wrist pin sizes are easy to adapt with custom bushings in the connecting rods. There are lots of different wrist pin positions for 302, 327, and 350, all with a 4" bore and a .927" wrist pin. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I don't know what rods or piston pins Mark has, but the stock 302 piston pin is 1.0523"-1.0525" and the stock crank journal size is 2.111"-2.312". Edit: I fat fingered the crank journal size. The minimum should be 2.311", not 2.111". This will have an effect on Jerry's post below.
Last edited by Bill Hanlon; 11/12/20233:17 PM.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Hmmmmm- - - - - -another option would be the 292 Chevy six connecting rod and a small block V8 piston. That would give a bunch of options for adjusting the piston compression height and the position of the piston in the cylinder, without having to go to exotic (e$$$pensive) custom pistons or rods. The 292 runs a 2.100" rod journal, the same .927" wrist pin as the V8, and a rod length of 6.760". That's almost 1/4" shorter rod length, and there would be several choices of piston pin to crown distance. Small block V8 hotrod parts are plentiful and inexpensive, and they're made to handle lots of horsepower. The existing pistons could have the wrist pin holes bushed down to fit the 292 rods, which have press fitted pins, if the shotrer rods could create enough valve clearance. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Right now I'm trying for the less expense of energy route of sticking with the rods that are in there with the .990" pins and just do a piston change out. I've learned elsewhere that CP Carillo (who bought out Arias) and Ross Racing Pistons still make pistons for the Bonneville guys using GMC's. There's plenty around if you know who/where to ask. I learned that when we were restoring the vintage fuel motor. You ask around and you eventually run in to the guy that has a garage full of hemi's, 6-71 blowers, the #3 Donavan block, and..... You just don't find them on the internet. (RIP Jake!) Fortunately, one of them is my friend. Who just spent yesterday trying to break a record at El Mirage in George Callaway's roadster. 149 mph for the first pass. He needed 152+ for the second pass but wasn't successful.
Picture from yesterday. Love the creative air dam.
So Monday, if I can find time, I'll get a call in to one or both of them and see what they can do for me and what little designs they have filed away in their computers. This block was built was within the last 5-7 years, so these pistons weren't made that long ago. They're just wrong for my application.
I don't know what rods or piston pins Mark has, but the stock 302 piston pin is 1.0523"-1.0525" .....
Why do I want to say that there are 2 pin sizes for the 302, .990" being one of them. Somebody told me that somewhere? The old rods with the Jahns pistons are .990" also.
Federal Mogul lists two wrist pin bushings for GMC sixes- - - - -1909Y has a 1.052" ID, and a 9849V is for a .990" pin. Some later model 302's ran the bigger pin, while 270 and smaller engines ran the small one.
Machine a set of custom diameter pin bushings from aluminum bronze and reduce the ID to .927, and you'll have a wide variety of 4' pistons with different compression heights go choose from. LOTS of engines ran a 4" bore, and the pistons don't care which block they're running in. Ford 289, 302, and 351 comes to mind, as well as a bunch of GM engines. Just make the rod bushings fit the wrist pins. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Machine a set of custom diameter pin bushings from aluminum bronze and reduce the ID to .927, and you'll have a wide variety of 4' pistons with different compression heights go choose from. Jerry
That thought crossed my mind as I was typing my response to Bill. I'll check Monday to see what those two manufacturers can do and at what cost. Might help to make a better informed decision. (Jeesh! I'm starting to talk like I'm at work!)
I have a lathe and a Sunnen hone, ya know, and I do that kind of custom stuff all the time! I'd be glad to adapt that set of spare rods to any piston/wrist pin combination you decide to use. Jerry
Last edited by Peggy M; 12/07/20233:26 PM.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Have you considered running that engine on a fuel other than gasoline? Higher compression figures work well with alcohol, plus various "oxidizer" additives such as Nitromethane or Hydrogen Peroxide. Just hang a trailer on the back to haul the fuel tank around. Dad's 300 cubic inch flathead V8 in his 34 Ford 3 window coupe dirt tracker running on an alcohol/peroxide mix got 8 laps per gallon on a 1/4 mile oval. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
That had me laughing, Jerry. I'd like to keep it streetable without the extra expense of special fuels. What are they up to? $2000-2500 for a barrel of nitro? Pump gas is the target.
A nitro 302 though. I wonder how long it would last before sending the head in to orbit!
CARB would give you 30 days in the electric chair if they caught you running a rig like that on the street, too! Some of the Bonneville guys experimented with O2 gas injection on 302s back in the dark ages- - - - -not sure how long the pistons and valves lasted. Ron, I never considered E85, but that opens up a whole new can of worms to play with, compression-wise! Just break out the pin vise and some carburetor jet drills! LOL! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when I read that one- - - - -I'm sure I'd be needing a new keyboard! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Doing a little back and forth with a piston manufacturer.
You might get a piston maker to fit a GMC pin into a piston with the compression height you need, and/or get them to alter the compression height on a piston they already make. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
The .990" pin isn't an issue. I've got choices to make. .468" below deck gets me 8.5:1 compression, .435" below gets me 9:1. I corrected some numbers that I had given him, so I think I'm waiting to hear back about that. He says that flat top would be the best design. Otherwise, I think we're at the point of agreeing on piston numbers, total cost and how much of a deposit he would need to get started. Email has been quiet today so I figure they've shut down for the week. Race season is kinda over for the year. I'll call on Monday if I don't hear anything by Wednesday.
I've always found it to be simpler ( and less expensive) to alter existing parts rather than allow a custom fabricator to put a vacuum cleaner into my pocket. Those parts don't know, or care what the original application might have been. I just paid a king's ransom ($45.00) for six brand new pistons that will be going into my 300 cubic inch stroker 261. They think they're supposed to be in a Buick 231 V6. Another project coming down the pipeline is going to be figuring out how to put a 24 valve DOHC Atlas cross flow head on a stovebolt block. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
We'll see how enthusiastic I am if a case of sticker shock gets me. I do have a set of the Jahn's that came out of it, but I doubt they are the correct diameter anymore. I should measure and verify. Someone also, at one time, handed me a brand new set of 265 pistons. Two more in the box than I need for either the straight or the V. Definitely too small of a diameter. I can always put them on the pile of things to sell so I can buy parts for this project.
But, yes. If sticker shock is an issue, alternatives will be looked at. This engine will run, one way or another. It is not destined to be a boat anchor.
There's such a wide variety of basic 4" diameter pistons of all brands and OEM applications that I would have a hard time imagining there's not something close to what you need, considering either/or compression height and wrist pin diameter. Instead of limiting your search to forged pistons, look at what's available as hypereutectic cast. Those things have virtually zero thermal expansion, and they're tough as woodpecker lips. When I machined the crown on a set of Speed-Pro hypereutectics I was going to use on al altered-stroke Chevy 305 V8, I ended up having to use a carbide tipped lathe cutter bit- - - - -a tool steel bit would get dull after a couple of passes. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Sticker shock wasn't so bad. Pistons ordered. 6-8 weeks wait time. So, I work on little things. Like oil lines for the full flow oil filter, fixing a broken sprinkler, and hanging Christmas lights.
Inpatients preclude me from doing what a lot of you guys and gals do. By the way no skills either. Keep on doing what you do so I can pretend I know what you are talking about. I will only do this.
Ron, The Computer Greek I love therefore I am. 1954 3100 Chevy truck In the Gallery 2017 Buick Encore See more pix 1960 MGA Roadster Sold 7/18/2017
Not even part of the thought process right now. Wanted something in place so I could work on sheet metal and such. Dog house, trans tunnel, where to hang the computer, will steering clear where I want to put the oil filter and fuel system, etc. That little dance one does when they're trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle, but aren't sure if the pieces will fit or if it is even the correct pieces in the box!
Sometimes you want to make stuff, sometimes you want to have stuff made for you. Fitting the T5 to the bellhousing. Will probably go with a McLeod 10" clutch and hydraulic throw out. I don't believe I can fit a 11" or multi disc in there even though the flywheel is drilled for either.
Someone also, at one time, handed me a brand new set of 265 pistons. Two more in the box than I need for either the straight or the V. Definitely too small of a diameter.
Keep me in mind when those pistons need a home. I can use them on one of the Frankenstein 261s. Bore size is not an issue, as at least one version of that engine is going to get all six holes sleeved, the one that's getting an Atlas twin cam 24 valve head. Some preliminary measurements today confirmed that a pretty fancy adapter plate can probably marry up the block and the head. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Sometimes you want to make stuff, sometimes you want to have stuff made for you. Fitting the T5 to the bellhousing. Will probably go with a McLeod 10" clutch and hydraulic throw out. I don't believe I can fit a 11" or multi disc in there even though the flywheel is drilled for either.
I have an oversize bellhousing from a big truck 302" GMC that takes an 11 1/2" clutch. Cheap! No selling on this forum. PM me if you are interested.
You may have the gap right, but #6 cylinder is going to have a much higher compression ratio than #5.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
I think that Bill is referring to the two different piston crowns. 4 and 5 have dished pistons, while #6 if flat. At least it sure looks that way.
Last edited by klhansen; 01/16/20241:22 AM.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
I think that Bill is referring to the two different piston crowns. 4 and 5 have dished pistons, while #6 if flat. At least it sure looks that way.
That's the way it was at that point in time. But, even if I left it that way, #6 would still make less compression than #4 or #5. With the 12 port head, #4 and #5 would make 13+ compression. #6 will make 8.5-9 compression. You might be assuming that the dished piston and the flat piston end up in the same place in the cylinder at each cylinder TDC. But they don't.
#6 is at TDC and almost 1/2" below deck in the previous picture. The pic below shows the dished piston at TDC. It is .070 below the deck.
At this point in time, #4,5 and 6 will make 8.5 - 9 compression. And if I put in another few hours, #1,2 and 3 will match #4, 5 and 6.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Makes sense. #6 was a new piston, and others were older ones that you're replacing. Wasn't clear back then with that pic, but sure much clearer now.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Was chatting with the previous piston maker. He looked up the job and the pistons were ordered in 2015, for this engine. Here's where things went a little upside down and now things make more sense to me. Piston maker had a crank to deck number of 11.360". I measured it at 11.1875". With the proper deck height, the Arias pistons would have been a 9.5:1 compression ratio.
Makes me feel better about the cam that's in there. Though I still want to call the cam grinder and see if I can get the card for it.
Once I get a little further along on putting the Atlas 24 valve DOHC cylinder head on the 261 Chevy block, it's going to be interesting to see how the compression calculates. With the bore and stroke I'm planning to use, the displacement will be just a fuzz less than 300 cubic inches. There will be a 3/8" thick steel adapter plate between the head and the block, with the pistons and cylinder sleeves sticking up into the adapter plate about 1/8" or a little more above the top of the original 261 deck height. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
So, somewhere around a 1/4" cylinder chamber? Keeping the rings down in the block?
Question for the general population. First I've seen. The rod bolts were twice tacked to the rods, each of them for 4 tacks per rod. Is that some kind of old trick? Also, a what would you do question. Reuse the ARP washer flange nuts, torqued to 40-45 ft lbs? Or use new, which I do have some grade 8 fine thread, washer face stover nuts somewhere around here. If I do reuse the ARP, I'm going to put them on different rod bolts than what they came off of, so at the very least, they wouldn't be locking right back where they had started at.
Since all the cylinders will be sleeved, the ring position won't matter. The sleeves will project up into the adapter plate about 1/4", making the surface smooth all the way to the intersection with the adapter. There will be a copper sealing ring between the top of the sleeve and the plate, similar to how the cylinder on an air cooled Volkswagen engine mates to the head. All the Atlas head gasket will do is seal compression and coolant at the top of the adapter plate. Coolant will be routed from the block to the head via external fittings- - - -no coolant flow through the adapter plate. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I'm adapting stovebolt connecting rods to use ARP bolts salvaged from NASCAR rods after a race or three, by installing 3/8-24 Helicoils in the rods and inserting the bolts from the bottom. There's approximately twice the thread engagement than using nuts, and the bolts don't stick down as far to interfere with the camshaft as the stroker crankshaft turns. The Helicoil 'I'm using is also stainless steel.
Those bolts are rated for 9K+ RPM, on an engine that produces several times the HP any stovebolt engine could make, regardless of how it's modified. Overkill? Sure, but why not? The ARP bolts we used on round track engines back in the 1970s had a "stretch" specification, not a torque value, and we usually had to torque them to somewhere in the 65-70 foot pound range to get the proper stretch. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Jerry, I've already mounted the assembly with 3 points of contact. Are you suggesting a fourth? If anything, it would be a slider pad like our current International trucks have. Seems like, though, when we look at them, they are extremely worn or broken.
First picture is where I'm currently mounted with the assembly. Second picture is some support rods I'm thinking of fabricating that add triangulation to the bellhousing and trans assembly. It will triangulate more side to side than up or down, but will still give it plenty of rigidity for the up and down.
I always draw on my dirt track experience, where things got exciting in a hurry and stayed that way. A crossmember under that tailshaft housing with a beefy rubber mount would handle driveshaft torque better, but that might not be a concern unless you're planning to hammer the throttle repeatedly in 2nd. gear going into a 4.56 locker rear end. We would cycle from 3k RPM to 7K at least twice a lap, on a track surface that resembled a washboard. That stresses things in a way that a street machine never sees. Running that Muncie 4 speed in 3rd. gear instead of 2nd. would split the case wide open at times. We changed the final drive ratio to adapt the RPM to slightly different track lengths- - - -4.56 on a "short quarter mile" measured around the outside wall, and a "long quarter" measured around the infield got a 4.11. Both running against 2nd. gear. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Back to where I started. Supposedly, mid-week begins a "100 year storm" around here. They keep crying wolf like that and ain't no one gonna be prepared when stuff finally does hit the fan! Anyway, gives me a chance to work on some fuel plumbing, oil filter mount/plumbing and start figuring out how I want that exhaust to go. Maybe I'll start with making a quickie press and turn some round 1 3/4" tube into a rectangular shape. I'm also thinking of making the header out of stainless for the shine factor. Decisions, decisions. Thinking of putting this breather in the side cover. I bought it for another project but didn't use it.
Out of curiousity, why are you putting the fuel pump all the way up there at the engine vs in/near the tank?
The red horizontal thing (System 1) with brackets is the filter. The pump is in the tank. The filter won't fit in the frame anywhere that makes any sense, so I might be making a bracket to have it close by the injectors and serviceable. A story I won't go into about narrow C channels, and having to add a ton of plumbing. The black thing is a System 1 oil filter. That might move forward or aft, dependent on steering column, hose flexibility, serviceability, etc.
Thought is, right now, to build a bracket that would go where my dolly upright is. That would put me close to my pressure and return terminals at the back of the block. Plus, that part of the bellhousing isn't being used for anything and is dead space.
Bill machined down a modern Jeep 6 cylinder distributor for that CPS. It took me a while to figure out what sensor he mounted on top. It ended up being a Ford Aerostar 3.0L V6 version.
Camshaft Position Sensor... You guys may as well be speaking Swahili. If it's not in the Shop Manual, I'm lost.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Got tired of the dirty T5, so I dunked it in the parts washer. Nice and shiny now. Been plotting out my exhaust header. Made a thing. It turns round tube in to rectangular tube ends. 1.75" was too small, 2" is too big. Waiting for some 1.875 " to show up.
Bill machined down a modern Jeep 6 cylinder distributor for that CPS. It took me a while to figure out what sensor he mounted on top. It ended up being a Ford Aerostar 3.0L V6 version.
Thanks for sharing that information! The sensor looks like the one used in the 1995 to 1997 3.0L model.
-David
1953 2-Ton GMC
I'm a machinist... because engineers need heroes too.
2 inch plus an angle grinder would make some 1.75 pretty quickly, wouldn't it? A flycutter and a lathe would also be an option. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Made a bracket, installed the oil filter. Started on the exhaust stuff. Made some round stuff rectangular in shape because, well, who doesn't like rectangular shaped stuff.
"Interrrressssting!" Now, I wonder if anyone might be in the market for a GMC engine (270 or 302) with a 4 3/8 inch stroke? I believe that can be done with the right piston/connecting rod/stroke combination. That would make a "270" with a standard bore size come out to 294 cubic inches. A "302" with the same stroke and a standard bore would become a 330. Can somebody say "TORQUE MONSTER"?????? Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Will that starter eventually have a heat shield? I think it's going to need one. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Needing to drop the exhaust to pull the starter seems like it would not be ideal. Could the rear exhaust be shifted forward enough to allow the started to be removed as well as providing some much needed clearance for heat?
I see the point of the heat shield but you have to admit it is PURDY...
~ Craig 1958 Viking 4400 "The Book of Thor" Read the story in the DITY 1960 Chevrolet C10 "A Family Heirloom" Follow the story in the DITY Gallery '59 Apache 31, 327 V8 (0.030 over), Muncie M20 4 Speed, GM 10 Bolt Rear... long term project (30 years and counting)
If you don't like driving yourTruck, you won't drive yourTruck..| Living life in the SLOW lane
Needing to drop the exhaust to pull the starter seems like it would not be ideal. Could the rear exhaust be shifted forward enough to allow the started to be removed as well as providing some much needed clearance for heat?
Doesn't look like it, but there is tons of room to get that starter out. I always look to serviceability when I fabricate things. I would suggest letting things cool before starting work though. But plenty of room to go towards the front of the engine, back, up, down, and any other direction that strikes your fancy.
I see the point of the heat shield but you have to admit it is PURDY...
I'm not sure if I want to put in the labor for polishing nor ask what the bill would be to farm it out. But, I suppose it'll have to happen one way or another!
My bus had issues with the starter hot soaking, as I used the original Chevy starter in the bellhousing along with redrilled flywheel behind the Cadillac V8, and its exhaust manifold configuration put that pipe pretty close to the starter. I ended up alleviating most of my problems when I made it electric fan cooled. Since those fans always came on for a minute after engine shutdown, they'd blow cool air across the whole exhaust/starter area and that seemed to make my solenoids last years instead of months.
I could see this fancy computer controlled unit being electric fan cooled, so maybe that will be the answer.
Also, I'm quite sure I've never seen the like of that head before on any stovebolt six!
There's a lot of us wannabes living vicariously through this project of yours ...
~ John
A kid raised on Hotwheels, Matchbox and Tonka cannot be reasonably expected to own only one vehicle as an adult.
1949 Chevrolet 3804 In the Legacy Gallery | In the Gallery Forum 1973 IH 1310 Dump 1963 Kaiser M38A1 2001 International/AmTran RE3000 "Skoolie" 2014 Ford E-350 4x4 (Quigley)
On 1 race car we built we sent the stainless headers out to be electropolished, after they were used they went to a golden color instead of blackish. It is a common procedure for medical eqpt… Chuck
Finished up the header for the most part. Needed to remove the rust pits from the sealing surface of the thermostat housing and drill/tap for a gauge sender. Started finalizing the fuel system. Fuel filter installed. Hung the regulator on the other end of the fuel rail. It's a little weighty and I didn't think a -6 fitting would be up to securing the valve. So I made a bracket to hold it in place. I still need to drill and tap some holes in the intake manifold to mount the bracket. Then more sanding and maybe polishing on that bracket. A steel line is next as I don't want a braided hose flopping around near the alternator. Also made a small dash or gauge mount so I have something to read when I do the fire up.
That is a GORGEOUS engine!! Are you setting this thing up foe Bonneville?
~ Craig 1958 Viking 4400 "The Book of Thor" Read the story in the DITY 1960 Chevrolet C10 "A Family Heirloom" Follow the story in the DITY Gallery '59 Apache 31, 327 V8 (0.030 over), Muncie M20 4 Speed, GM 10 Bolt Rear... long term project (30 years and counting)
If you don't like driving yourTruck, you won't drive yourTruck..| Living life in the SLOW lane
~ Craig 1958 Viking 4400 "The Book of Thor" Read the story in the DITY 1960 Chevrolet C10 "A Family Heirloom" Follow the story in the DITY Gallery '59 Apache 31, 327 V8 (0.030 over), Muncie M20 4 Speed, GM 10 Bolt Rear... long term project (30 years and counting)
If you don't like driving yourTruck, you won't drive yourTruck..| Living life in the SLOW lane
Last edited by Phak1; 06/27/202510:33 AM. Reason: Typo
Phil Moderator, The Engine Shop, Interiors and Project Journals
1952 Chevrolet 3100, Three on the Tree, 4:11 torque tube Updated to: ‘59 235 w/hydraulic lifters, 12v w/alternator, HEI, PCV and Power front Disc Brakes Project Journals Stovebolt Gallery Forum
Phil, I recognize the cowl on Mark's vehicle. That's a 1928 or 1929 Model A FORD!!
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
I've always wondered what keeps debris from getting sucked into those horns?
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
I've always wondered what keeps debris from getting sucked into those horns?
Just drive fast enough that the debris doesn't have time to get up there.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Mark, Like everything else on your build, outstanding workmanship! Going to be a very high HP work of art when finished. Can't wait to hear it roar!
~ Dan 1951 Chevy 3 window 3100 Follow this story in the DITY Gallery "My Grandpa Carl's Truck and How it Became Mine" 1966 Chevelle (Wife's Hot Rod) | 2013 Chevy Silverado (Current daily driver) US Army MSG Retired (1977-1998) | Com Fac Maint Lead Tech Retired (1998-2021)
I realize this engine is not stock but how did you get the spark plugs and exhaust reversed? Did you manufacture your own head?
Last edited by Otto Skorzeny; 12/15/20241:36 PM.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
12 port heads (6 intakes on the driver's side, 6 exhausts on the passenger's side) were a Southern California hot rod thing in the very early 1950's. The first were cast by Wayne Horning for Chevy, followed shortly with heads for GMC engines.
If you'd like the early history, seek out "The 12 Port Story" written by Herbert Hall, a series of 9 articles in "The 12 Port News" in 1981-2.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Flywheel installed. Clutch plate installed. No pictures of the clutch plate and I don't feel like crawling under there unless I have to. Working on fitting a hydraulic throwout.
Hydraulic throw out installed. That created a few issues. McLeod requires a 0.100 - 0.250 gap between the bearing and the pressure plate fingers. The standard piston was too short. To remedy that, they sell a tall piston. After I installed the tall piston, I had less than a zero gap. To fix that, I needed the trans moved back 3/16". Which would now get me past the minimum and give me the 0.100 and some change. That would still leave me with enough pilot bearing interference and full spline contact on the disc. So that nice 9/16" thick adapter I bought now needed to be 3/4" thick. Off to the mill I went.
Next issue, the throw out bearing stack is too short to pilot into the bellhousing. So I made some bolt-on line-up blocks that are bolted on top of the throw out bearing base. Leaves me with an extra 1/8" protruding from the adapter to keep things lined up in the bellhousing. Makes me feel better about the driveshaft since it was built slightly shorter than I wanted.
Intake gasket being made, or was, 11 quarts in the pan, one in the filter. Being the military pan and pump, it takes 1/2 quart more or so. Still nowhere close to the crank. Found out I didn’t have the correct exhaust manifold gasket. Gotta make one of those. Still need to prime it and verify I have oil going to the top. Check for leaks. Put some gas in the tank. Check for leaks. Maybe rough in the pressure. Still haven’t figured out where to mount the battery, but that won’t stop me from trying to fire it up. Many five minute jobs still left to do.
MNSmith: This is way beyond excellent. I would submit an article to some magazines. They will love a build like this.....and they pay for them. Your quality is uber. This is soooooo SoCal. I don't see a like button.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
A kid raised on Hotwheels, Matchbox and Tonka cannot be reasonably expected to own only one vehicle as an adult.
1949 Chevrolet 3804 In the Legacy Gallery | In the Gallery Forum 1973 IH 1310 Dump 1963 Kaiser M38A1 2001 International/AmTran RE3000 "Skoolie" 2014 Ford E-350 4x4 (Quigley)
Latest issue to deal with. Didn't think there was a water jacket that close to this head bolt. Maybe a casting anomaly? Gotta figure out how to seal that. Seems it's between the head of the bolt and the top of the block. I might be able seal it under the bolt head shoulder? We'll see.
Does the head of the bolt tighten against the cast surface above the hole, or is it a socket head bolt recessed into the opening? The cast surface is going to be hard to seal but if the counter bore is just bolt clearance you could use a bolt to ensure clearance and fill the cavity with an epoxy material to seal the opening.
As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't make a split neoprene seal for the GMC. This poor little guy didn't touch the crank. At least not by much. Found my leak, I guess!
As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't make a split neoprene seal for the GMC.
Not yet, but I haven't started whittling yet. I've got an idea in the "dreams and schemes" stages right now to make the block and the crankshaft compatible with a big block Chevy V8 split seal. It will be a similar procedure to what I do on Chevy engines, but there will be an aluminum, or maybe steel seal holder pinned or bolted to the block and the rear main bearing cap. The seal surface on the crank will have to be ground to a slightly smaller diameter. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
That is just plain ugly. What's the plan on fixing that?
Phil Moderator, The Engine Shop, Interiors and Project Journals
1952 Chevrolet 3100, Three on the Tree, 4:11 torque tube Updated to: ‘59 235 w/hydraulic lifters, 12v w/alternator, HEI, PCV and Power front Disc Brakes Project Journals Stovebolt Gallery Forum
I'm working on a plan to machine away the rope seal groove on a GMC block and main cap and replace it with a 2 piece aluminum seal holder for a big block Chevy rubber seal. Then I'll turn the crankshaft seal area down to the diameter of a BBC crankshaft (about .050")
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Cam is back. If we can get the oven turned off out here, I might get it in this weekend. Of course, I can always get up when it is 3-4 am. No wind, no heat, no bugs, and the critters are all heading for their sleeping spots. All except the coyotes looking for a cat or two to eat.
Cam is back in. Push rods and rocker rack back in with the towers torqued down. Front cover, damper and trigger are re-installed. Breakfast with the wife and then I'll set lash. I made a new side cover but need to stick it back in the mill to finesse a couple of spots. Maybe I'll even throw a quart or two or ten of oil in it. If it's not ready to run by the end of the day, tomorrow for sure. I'll get some pictures later. Maybe even some video of it running, if all goes well!
I'm following this build with a great deal of interest- - - -I contacted your cam grinder with my idea of making my own cam cores, and got no response- - - -I'll bet he thinks I'm some kind of nutcase- - - - -which could be a distinct possibility, I suppose! LOL! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
What is the device in the second picture with "Easy Grip" stamped on it? It appears to be in the hole where the no longer used distributor used to reside.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
That's an expanding rubber plug, used as an oil filler cap. Lots of Diesel engines use the same item.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Been taking a break, chasing small leaks and other stuff. And by taking a break, I mean turn my attention to a 4-71 blown V6. That one is maybe a week away from firing up. After that, I'll have no excuse except to get back to the inline. Don't know why, but I haven't been interested snapping photos of any of this stuff. Might have to get back to that, too.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
What is the heritage of the 200 c.i. six? Looks GM to me.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Chevy made a 200 cid V6 in the late 70s. They basically cut #3 and #6 cylinders off a 350.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
The 200 became a 229 before it became a 262 in the 1980s.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
For this one, I use the application of a '78-'79 Malibu. But most of the time, there won't be a parts listing. Using a 283 for parts search works much better.
Iskenderian cam made for 10 psi of boost. For a while, just finding the blower manifold was becoming a chore. Triple V belt drive by design.
Nope. We will speak of it no more. It is just another GM engine of many and not related to Stovebolts or trucks. It actually predates the inline. At least, the inline is directly truck related.
BTW, I need to find a little time to have a chat with you about the Haltech. I'll send you a PM when I have a chance.
Phil Moderator, The Engine Shop, Interiors and Project Journals
1952 Chevrolet 3100, Three on the Tree, 4:11 torque tube Updated to: ‘59 235 w/hydraulic lifters, 12v w/alternator, HEI, PCV and Power front Disc Brakes Project Journals Stovebolt Gallery Forum
~ Dan 1951 Chevy 3 window 3100 Follow this story in the DITY Gallery "My Grandpa Carl's Truck and How it Became Mine" 1966 Chevelle (Wife's Hot Rod) | 2013 Chevy Silverado (Current daily driver) US Army MSG Retired (1977-1998) | Com Fac Maint Lead Tech Retired (1998-2021)
I'll trade you my GMC 228 straight up. Leaks oil, needs a carb rebuild, has an HEI.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Is there a cover/air cleaner or something that goes over all those stacks to keep dirt and leaves and crap from going in?
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
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I will only do this. 
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