The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop making a 235 for the street?

I want to keep the 235 in my 61, but I would like to build the truck a little bit more for the street. I want to lower it a bit (2 inches), get some nice classic rims (cragars or something like that), headers (fentons), dual exhaust (with 40 series flowmasters), a new back bumper (stock white painted), and a t-5 transmission.

But my main query is how does one go about building a 235? Is it possible to build one that can rev a little bit and handle quick shifting and that kind of abuse. I want to have a single 4 barrell carb, and other than that I am in the dark. Have any of you built a 235 for the sreet, or am i [censored]' into the wind on this one?

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

Do some searches on this website. I'm sure you'll find adequate info. You might also talk to Tom Langdon at Langdon's Stovebolt or the folks at Patrick's in Arizona. They were very helpful when I built my truck, 261, stock 261 cam, bored 60, shaved 20, port & polished, 6=8 intake, 390 Holley 4 bbl, Fentons, 50-series Flowmasters.

56 - thanks for the reply i checked out langdon's page, very cool, i also found the clifford page also very cool. i already had patrick's that is a good page. thanks for the reply, keep em comin' guys!

while i don't have a 235, and am not very inexperienced with engines, etc. heres my thoughts.

3x1 or 2x1 Offy, to spread fuel evenly, make it more efficient with the distibution, once set up properly.

duals out of headers thru glass packs.

mild port and polish, maybe a valve job if its needed.

after that you start running into cam's, soon after, turbo's, etc etc. so, thats just my opinion.

have at it!

.sam.

does the 235 pull enough revs for a turbo to be a viable power adder? i want to be able to get a 5000rpm redline is that possible? i would like to be able to wind it out a little bit. i am going to put a t-5 on it so i want to be able to run it through the gears. thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Fort Knox,

I think a turbo can be sized to achieve boost in any RPM range desired. A small volute on the turbine will bring the compressor up to boost at a lower RPM, whereas a larger one will move this threshold up.

Stuart

cool, thanks atomarc. i am still in the planning phases of this project. keep em coming

The drawback to building 235/261 is that their head's don't breath well and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it, except forced induction. Turbo's will make power at a low enough RPM that you don't need high rev's.

I thought turbos made more power from mid-range to high-range? Who coined the phrase "turbo-lag"? If I were going with a built 235, I would bore it a bit, and go to town on the heads with larger valves, polishing, and even honing. The heads are holding the 235 back. And I think a 4 barrel is a bit much. How about 3 singles? That would be coooool. Don't know if that is possible?

jomichael,

I had a turbocharged 350 in a '51 pickup (see gallery) and believe me, turbo-lag is real. As I mentioned in the note above, you can configure the turbo to be under boost at whatever RPM you want.

Not sure on this, but I understood the old turbocharged T-birds would go into boost at around 1800 RPM.

I think the waste gate system has been outdated, but in my truck, the adjustable waste gate would control boost in PSI and the snail, or volute size on the turbine side would would dictate where the compressor started developing boost.

Doing a turbo setup correctly entails building the engine specifically for that item..it usually isn't just a add on afterthought.

Turbo-lag is real, but when the SOB kicks in, hold on to your BVD's buster cause yer going fer a ride!


Turbo-Stu

thanks guys, lots of good suggestions.

there are superchargers out there for the 235. ron

Ron,

Being from the school for the mechanically challenged, I make a distinction between a turbocharger and a supercharger. I have always called a belt driven device a supercharger and an exhaust driven device a turbocharger.

These items are sort of like curb feelers, you can stick them on anything, even a old 235 Chevy six.


Stuart

I would go turbo! Theres nothing else like it!

You can cut turbo lag down if you use a smaller turbo. You can also play with the compressor wheel sizes and help that problem too. The best way to get rid of turbo lag is to run a automatic tranny with a stall conv. I drag race my Syclone and Typhoon. I leave the line at 8 psi of boost in my 100% bone stock Typhoon and I've pulled a 1.68 60' in it. Not bad for a stock V6 4200 lb. SUV on street tires. I can build 15 psi of boost in my Syclone while sitting still.

Check this months Car Craft. There is a Ford Falcon running 11.8's with a almost stock I-6, blow through carb and a small turbo. Maybe itll give you some ideas.

AUTOMARC, there is a difference. i have a pt cruiser with a exhaust driven turbo. a supercharger is belt driven. i am agreeing with you to be clear. RON

Turbos depend more on their sizing relative to the engine displacement to determine where they make the bulk of their power. Large turbo-diesel engines in semi trucks do not rev high, yet the turbocharger is perfectly sized for their narrow rpm band.

A Garrett T03 turbo, which is both water and oil cooled and is commonly found on turbo 2.2 liter Dodges, would be a good size for a 235. In a 135 cubic inch engine, the T03 begins to get strong at about 2800 rpm. On an engine with 100 more cubic inches, that'll push the powerband further down. You'll probably start pulling at around 2000 rpm, which is also about where the 235's torque peaks.

With the right cam, you could probably do 4000 rpm on a 235. I usually don't go much past 3600 rpm on mine. You can go higher, but you have to do some pretty significant building up to get there. Look at Leo Sanducci's site and check out how he built up his turbocharged inline 6. You could do something similar. For example, if the block will support a 0.173" overbore, you can use forged small block Chevy 305 pistons. I don't know the compression height comparison, but you could probably get big block Chevy rods for it, which come in a variety of lengths. The big end of the rods can fit on a 235 crank turned to that size and rebalanced. Then a good cam, and you could easily see 5000 rpm.

If you do that, then you probably want to up the size of the turbo to match. Like maybe a Garrett T04, or even a Super 60 maybe.

The heads don't flow the best, but the turbo will force feed it. I'll bet you can make your own fuel injection system using a V6 EFI system from a salvage yard. Or just put a hat on a carb. I'd probably use the head with a good valve job to improve flow. Leo Sanducci cut one cylinder each off a pair of AFR aluminum SBC heads and welded them to make a single inline cross-flow head. Very trick but very expensive.

I'd like to turbocharge mine. I have a few extra turbos and I'll use a T03 with a hat on my carb. The turbo will probably have to tilt down to fit under the alternator.

thanks guys, i am learning a lot here. i think that the turbo thing is an interesting idea. someone posted a thing about throttle body injection on a 235 that seems interesting.

check the post called "tbi on an i-6" in the general truck talk section for that tbi 6 post.

Great post Hot Rod Dad!

Ive seen alot of blow-through carb turbo setups. Switching to EFI isnt a must but it would be nice. I think running some kind of intercooler or alky injection would be more important than EFI.

It would be looking for a guy with a Eclipse/Talon or turbo Mopar who is getting a bigger turbo. A Mitsu. TDO4, Garrett T03 or T04 would work great.

I would really go buy this months CarCraft and look at that Falcon. The Ford I-6 is alot like the GM ones. The intake & exhaust are on the same side. I would build something like they did.

I don't know the finer points of sizing a turbo to reduce lag or optimizing a specific rpm range but I have been around Leo's 292 drag car some and I know when he changed from NA engine to a turbo he changed the rear end to run lower rpms. By lower I mean you don't have to run 8K to make power. Also changed cam. Intercooled methanol injection, 10 something 130 mph quarter mile. He is hoping to improve on that. Check out http://www.customdesignperformance.com/leo/leo.html

i have seen that guy before...that is quite out of my league, but still cool to see and dream about. i am more thinking about a few internals and headers, along those lines. i am going to have to regear the rear-end and the cap on the project will be the t-5 tranny. i cannot stand getting passed on the highway by everyone!

Hey Fort Knox check this baby out on Ebay!!!#8032086860.Little much for the wallet but shows you that it can be done.
Hobert

apache - i have seen those on ebay a couple times. they are pretty cool, a little out of my price range. do you think that is made for the truck 235 or the corvette / car one? or is there a difference? yeah that would be fun to have under the hood, that would surely turn some heads when an old six banger truck came screaming by with the blower howling!!!

I'll bet Leo spent a LOT more building his drag stovebolt engine than he could have with a comparatively powerful big block Chevy.

He still would have needed a power adder, but nitrous oxide would have done it. Wouldn't have been as unique, but you'd have to be one dedicated stovebolter to spend 20 to 30 grand to prove a point. Not trying to be mean, but it reminds me of ricers who build Hondas into dedicated 10-second dragsters to prove they can run with the big dogs with fewer cylinders.

...Extreme expense not-withstanding, Leo's ride still is very cool. Some drag racer friends of mine have mentioned that they'd feel pretty bad being humbled by a stovebolt.

Without getting into blower or turbo territory you can still build a reasonably powerful 235. Given the rpm limitations you'll have to also work on the driveline to maximize your returns-

I bored mine 30 over, milled the head 75, decked the block 50, replaced the valves/seats/guides and checked for clearance- Added a 3/4 cam and stronger valve springs to combat lash- then the classic dual offy set up with two two barrel carbs and split exhaust, added an oilfilter and hei ignition. Then bolted to a t-5 and 3.73 posi rear end with original springs and sway bar that I'll eventually switch to a four-link set up.

Sure, I can't really get the engine over 4,000-4,400 rpm's, but with the right gearing that's plenty for what the truck's suspension and areodynamics can realistically handle without seriously endangering my life.

Well the thread did start out on how to make power with a 235. As far as how much Leo spent to make his 292 go fast I don't know. Is making power with a big block cheaper than with a six? Maybe. I was at the track when Leo beat a big block Chevelle with is 292 53 Chevy. Priceless.

As someone who helped Leo back when he was building his Chevy and a Stovebolter with a stovebolt in his old truck I can say that I think it would be kind of boring if everone thought the only way to make power was with a big block. The same goes for my truck. I could probably build a 350/350 cheaper than my 261/T-5 but I see way to many of these at shows already. When I decide I need more power than I have now with my 261 I will probably add a turbo.

Leo has raced six cylinders for a number of years starting with 235's and his 53 Chevy was a car he had back in high school. I'm glad somone is doing research on how to get power out of sixes and having fun doing it. As far as going to extremes, isn't that what drag racing is all about? How fast is fast enough? Just a little faster.

I even like to see the rice burners at the strip. Saturday night and kids showing up wanting to race their street 4 bangers. This is good American fun. If some build their rice burners to the hilt, well again, going to extremes is what racing is about.

The thing I don't get about drag racing is building a powerful big block and than having a computer cut it out halfway down the track so you don't break out of your time.

Just my 2 cents

i agree, individuality is what the sport / hobby is all about. i have had a big block, a small block, a four banger, a v-6, and even a straight six before. i think that it is cooler to have a 235 in my truck than anything, it was a farm implement for most of its life. this truck was not meant to go fast or any of that. if i do breathe some street life into it i am certainly going to keep the 235. i would enjoy changing it into a five speed, for mpg's and driveability. but i love to hear that old six fire up and shuffle down the road.

Subtle and submlime creativity is one of the things I enjoy about building these trucks and every other car I've built, including the diesels, 4s and 8s.

At the simplest end of the spectrum its figuring out that big block rod bolts are perfect replacements for the originals but only if you grind the heads down a little 'cause otherwise they hit the cam. Or that certain readily available valves fit just fine into these heads and with hardened seats work alot better with unleaded gasoline.

How and where am I going to mount that power steering pump when I've already got an alternator and a/c compressor on the driver side of the block, is a puzzler that I've enjoyed.

At the more complicated end, wondering if I can use the fuel injection set up and other stuff from the tried and true Jeep 4.0 inline six.

Building a 350 or other more common engines have their own problems, but most of them have been worked out by others and are available over the counter and ready made, which is great for other things, and the fun for me then is in other things.

That's just my two cents.

I'm not slamming on Leo, and I do think his 1000 hp stovebolt engine is extremely cool, but in looking at what he did to make that engine so strong made me cringe at how much he must have invested in that engine alone.

His choice of a Stude to put it in was a little bit odd, but aerodynamically, it makes a lot more sense than pushing an old truck down the track with 1000 hp.

My only point was, it's a lot of money to spend to prove a point, but is no less cool! Yes, you can build a high compression big block and put a couple of hundred horse shot of nitrous oxide on it and get to those power levels, and probably keep the cost down to half as much as Leo's engine probably cost him. It reminded me of ricers who won't hesitate to build a $30,000 4-cylinder to run within an inch of its life to get into 9 or 10 second territory, when a venerable V8 could be built to do that for a fourth as much and not have to be trailered back home.

But that's just the practical drag racer in me talking. To set the record straight, Leo's stovebolt is extremely cool, and extremely unusual, and I would love to see him run. But those of us without money to burn choose the cheaper routes to speed. That's all, and that was just my 2 cents.

Fort Knox, try here http://www.inliners.org/
in the classified section under parts, Performance

235 w/turbo making 1400 HP !!

would make a nice ride for kicking the crap out of those little tuner cars!!!

41Chevy - that is pretty neat! i wish that i had the money to buy something like that and dump it into my truck. i would love to drop the hammer on some chumpchange imports. but oh well, until then i will chug long with my 235.