The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline Wandering all over the road ... now what?

Well yesterday I got my 1952 registered and took her for a shake down cruise. The first thing I noticed was she was wandering all over the road. It felt like the road was taking the truck where it wanted to. There is a small amount of play in the steering wheel and I had my grandson move the wheel back and forth and there didn't seem to be any play from the arm on the box.

Where do I go from here?

1. Follow the steering gear adjustment procedure in the Shop Manual.
You will need a cheap small-fish scale (available a Walmart).

2. Have your inspected/adjusted and greased front end parts as described the the Shop Manal (including wheel bearings)?

3. What size tires do you have?
To what PSI have you inflated them?

Have you checked your toe-in?

I just checked the tire pressures and they ran from 24 to 39 lbs. I think that is a good place to start. The tire size is P235/70R-15. What do you think they should be inflated to? The Shop Manual doesn’t address anything close to that size.

If that doesn’t solve the issue, which I suspect will not, I’ll proceed to the next step.

Thanks!

1500 lbs empty/curb weight & 3250 full load weight

https://tirepressure.com/235-70r15-tire-pressure

My guess is around 30 psi?

Inflate to 30 psi, go for a ride at medium and high speeds.
If it is hard to steer, increase psi.
If it is "squirrely" and wanders, decrease psi.

What is the condition of the:
Caster (use tapered shim to correct) and camber (must bend axle to correct)
Spindle bolts (king pins)
Shackle straps and pins
Rear spring eye bushings***
Drag link ends
Tie rod ends
Wander cause is not always in the steering gear box

What Evan said. It never seems to be the steering box causing random wandering.
If this truck is new to you, your best approach would be to assume that the previous owner did not know how to maintain these old trucks.
This means that you will need to take apart and inspect every component which Evan listed above.
If you have a Factory Repair Manual, all of these items are covered in detail.
Carl

The steering box center point adjustment is the FIRST thing I do to address a steering wander condition. It's incredibly important. However, to do the adjustment properly, the drag link must be disconnected from the Pitman arm so the steering box is the only thing being moved- - - -not all the steering linkage, spindles, etc. Once the box is adjusted correctly, then work your way outward- - - -look for slack in the drag link, king pins and bushings, tie rod ends, wheel bearings, etc. Tiny errors in a bunch of places can add up until you're herding the truck down the road, not steering it!
Jerry

The previous owner’s did some shoddy work so I am suspect to everything that was done. I do have the Factory Repair Manual but I’m going to try the tire pressure first, then adjustment of the steering box as Tim suggested. To me, it makes more sense to do the easy things first. If that doesn’t help, I’ll go on to the other things Evan mentioned. Thanks!

I agree with HRL on the steering box adjustment. I really doesn't take that much time to do and doesn't cost anything --- except for some 000 grease. In my opinion, that's where it starts - - - at the steering wheel and box. Besides, you know you have a lot of play in the wheel, so you need to do it anyway. Just my opinion.

00 self-levelling grease was/is the GM spec for steering gear/box.

000 is thinner, like cooking oil.

Thanks Tim for turning me on to that tire pressure website. The tires I presently have are Cooper Cobras with a load rating of 102T. The website says for 26 PSI for 1642 lbs. I think that’s a good place to start.

My grandson (who has never added air to a tire) and I, set the tire pressures at 26 PSI. That did the trick. As HRL said, I’m no longer “herding the truck down the road“. I still have too much play in the wheel, so the next step is to adjust the steering box. Off the Wally World for a fish scale.

The truck tracked perfectly straight down the road when I let go of the wheel, but I did seem like it had a bit of understeer. Do you think if I added a few lbs. it might help the understeer. Could be I used to modern steering and suspension.

Thanks for all your help and I’ll keep you updated!

Go ahead and add a few pounds of air to each tire, and go for a ride.

Repeat this until it gets “squirrelly”, then back off one lb at a time.

See if this trial and error technique gets you a “better feel”.

Normal inflating at or just slightly over the pressure rating on the tire sidewall gets better tire life and better fuel mileage.

Ed

Finally got some time to look at why I have play in the steering. I jacked up the front end on the drivers side leaving the passenger side on the ground and tugged on the tire looking for loose components. The first thing I found is the rear mount on the front leaf spring is loose rocking on the frame. The rivets are loose. How do I go about fixing this. If I had room to swing a hammer, I would try peening it but with the engine in it I don’t think I have the room.

I was thinking that I could grind off the head and punch them out replacing them with a grade 8 bolt.

I found other issues but this is first on the list. Any suggestions?

If you go with bolts, be sure the unthreaded portion of the bolt goes through both pieces. You will have to use a longer then normal bolt, then cut off excess threads. Also be sure the bolt fits the hole tight, normally the hole is drilled to fit the bolt. You want the bolt to fill the hole, just like the rivet does. Be ready for a fight if you go down this path, even with the heads ground off, you will still have to fight the rivet to get it out.

There was a thread just recently about tightening up loose rivets. It was said to heat the rivet head till red, the set it with the proper tools.

I had the chance to work on the truck today and boy did I open a can of worms. In addition to the loose rear spring mount, the rear of the drivers side spring pivot bolt had slop. The other side was the same, so they both need replacement. After removal I confirmed their degraded condition. I also checked the king pins and tie rod ends.The tie rods ends are good only needing cleaning and re-greasing. The king pins are another story. The passenger side had a bit of slop, about .006” - .008” of radial movement as measured at the bottom of the yoke. I’m not talking about thrust clearance. The drivers side had .002” - .003”. So my question is how much movement is too much?

Since I almost had the entire front axle out I decided to remove the shackles to check them. They appear to be OK with no excessive wear. I do however need to replace the rubber grommets (grease seals).

My gut feeling is at least the passenger side will need to be replaced.

Its no wonder the truck wandered!

I decided to remove the spring mount and use bolts instead of attempting to re-rivet them. The limited space was the driving force. Removing them was a not easy. After reading several post on this forum, I decided to drill the heads, out to 3/8, then shear them off with a impact hammer. That worked well, however when I tried to use a drift to punch them out the rivets just rung indicating they were really tight. I decided to drill a bit deeper with a smaller bit so I didn’t hit the spring mount or frame. Using a 5/16” bit I went in another 3/8”. The the rivets punched right out.

This technique was one I learned as a machinist. I’ve removed many bushings by concentrating heat on the bushing and avoiding the outer casing as much as possible. The idea is the bushing is going to expand with the heat but the cooler casing is not allowing it to grow outward so it expands inward. When it cools it contracts the OD and the bushing usually falls out, taps or presses out easily.

In this case the drill acted as the heat source. I didn’t use a coolant, allowing the bit to heat up and it was enough to contract the OD of the rivet. The side rivets were fairly easy but the two under the frame were another story. Laying on my back I tried drilling out the rivets with little success. I ended up using a 2’ long piece of 1x2 pine and a block of wood as a pivot to apply some upwards pressure on the drill. That finally did the trick. What I wouldn’t do for a lift right now.

It was the right call removing the spring mount rather than trying to re-rivet it. The holes in the spring mount were tight but ones in the frame were oblong. The worst was .450”. Looks like I’ll be opening them up to 1/2”.

Much more work to do!

It's a lot of work but will be worth it when you are back on the road.

I'd reccommend drilling/reaming the rivet holes and using Allen head shoulder bolts and Nylock nuts to secure the spring mount to the frame. As I'm sure you know, drill bits do not make perfectly round, nor accurate-diameter holes. Any slop at all between the spring mount and the frame is too much. Use tapered punches to position the bracket to the frame, and clamp it tight while you're drilling/reaming. Victor Machinery Exchange has chucking reamers in stock at affordable prices.

www.victornet.com

Jerry

So, how much movement is too much with king pins?

I think most will agree that if you can detect any movement in the kingpins, they need to be replaced.

agreed

Hope the movement is in the:

1. Inside of the bushing
(best, but not the common problem - easy to repair)

2. In the holes in the axle, and that the movement is not more than an oversized king-pin
(somewhat common- relatively easy to repair)

3. Wallowed-out bushing-"seats" in the steering knuckles
(relatively common - difficult to repair, because replacement over-sized outer-diameter bushings are often hard to find/fit)

I’ve never replaced king pins before. I have read in the shop manual where they are available oversized. I would like to order them ASAP but I haven’t decided how I want to remove them (I’m contemplating buying a press). I would think that the wear would be between the bushings and the pin and in that case the standard replacement kit would be applicable.

Your thoughts?

Update: I was typing this before I saw your post Tim. From your post It seems I have to remove the pins before I order new ones.

Check with your local parts house for a rental tool, take it back and it is a full refund or keep it your choice.

"I would think that the wear would be between the bushings and the pin and in that case the standard replacement kit would be applicable."
"Your thoughts?"
Unfortunately, usually not - unless you have very low mileage/usage on the front-end parts.

Most people drive with loose front-end parts until the damage is critical - you will be very lucky if only the bushings/pins need to be replaced.

Most people did-not/do-not inspect and grease front-end/suspension parts at least once a year.

"Update: I was typing this before I saw your post Tim. From your post It seems I have to remove the pins before I order new ones."
I would do that.

Call around to see who has standard and oversized king-pin sets (so you will be ready to buy/order, if needed).

Ron, what rental tools are you referring to?

On the other hand all the kingpin replacements I've done have been fine with the standard kit. All those have been half ton pickups and none had been abused. Those I've seen with problems have been owned by friends and it was clear they had been driven much too long after they needed attention. I am not aware of any rental tool. Generally you need a press, time, prayer and occasionally penetrating oil to remove the pins. Good luck!

Prayer, of course, is alway good, but I have found myself mumbling other words when working on the front-ends/suspensions on all 5 of the A-D/ND trucks' that I have owned - they all had been well-used, but, they had not been well-maintained.

I have seen posts where a 20 Ton press didn't do the job. I have not seen a post where a 30 Ton press didn't work. I took my 38 kingpins out with my 30 Ton press and I was pushing on the jack handle pretty hard before it budged. One side took a lot more force than the other.

There have been discussions about floating bushings. I get the impression the the bushing can move relative to the spindle, enough to wear the spindle, and that becomes a problem. I think the original design idea was to allow for easy replacement without the need for machining.

I’m not too optimistic as everything on this truck has been well used, abused, under maintained with shoddy work performed by so called mechanics that shouldn’t have a wrench in their hand.

I decided a press was my best option so I went to Harbor Freight to buy their 20 ton press on sale for $145 today but they didn’t have any. This particular store just opened this spring. I have been there three times and three times they didn’t have what I wanted. I’ll have to try another store. Hopefully 20 tons with a torch, infrared thermometer, penetrating oil will do the trick. Oh no, I forgot prayer!

Don't forget the cuss jar, and worn out Chinese tools to throw. Neither will help get the job done, but it always seems to help me get through it all.

Sid at dropped axles replaced mine when he bent my axle.

Was that when he was replacing the king pins? That’s not helping my confidence!

Pretty sure if went to Sid's to get bent/lowered....don't think it was a side effect of swapping the bushings.

When I went to sids he identified that they would need to be replaced. He then replaced them after bending my axle. It was not done as a side effect of bending it, it was done because they needed to be done. He identified, and he had the tools/experience.

Chris

To maybe clarify a bit, Sid’s bends axles every day. It’s part of his dropped axle business. ndkid275 was having his axle modified and bending was part of the normal process.
Replacing king pins or bushings is doable by most folks with any mechanical ability. You got this.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Martin. When I posted that comment, I didn’t realize ndkid2775 had his axle re-bent to lower his truck.

During my career, I worked In the machine shop in a nuclear power plant, rebuilding industrial pumps, fans, valves, etc. which involved replacement of shafts, bushings which had interference fits that were either pressed or shrunk into place (either heat, dry ice or liquid nitrogen).

I have never replaced king pins before and I know with any project, knowledge is the key to success so having you guys at my back is priceless!

I’m off to buy that press

Getting the king pins out of the axle is usually the tough part- - - - -they can be stuck in there awfully tight at times. I've used a field-expedient press made from a hydraulic bottle jack, heavy wall square tubing, and round stock to push the king pins out while the axle is still mounted on the truck. A straight push against the bottom of the pin with the jack, and a little penetrating oil, heat, and massaging with a BFH will usually get them moving.
Jerry

I got back to working on my truck. I purchased the 20 ton press from HF and removed the king pins. They were easy to get out because they looked new and appears to have been replaced without addressing the real issue. Unfortunately it’s as tclederman suspected.


I took measurements and the OD of the pins and Od and ID of the bushings and they appeared new. The ID of the spindles were worn. The clearance was as follows:
Drivers: .003” on the top and .005” on the bottom.
Passengers: .002” on the top and .006” on the bottom.

It appears that I need oversized bushings and a reamer to match. Anybody know where I might find such bushings and reamer or any other suggestions I could do to fix the problem would be really appreciated.

Does anybody know if oversize bushings are available or should I be looking for replacement spindles?