So I just pulled the casting numbers on my "new" truck and i see that its a 409. obviously a later swap but I see they sell for a pretty good chunk of change. Why is that, how come they are so desirable?
And more to the point, should I keep this motor in it? I'm going for a restomod so it doesnt matter to me that the W block shipped with the truck.
Just looking for input/suggestions. Everyone thinks Im crazy because I love the old GMC V6's and i'd love to get a 478 in this truck.
Hy Spartan, as tclederman eluded to the engine was made famous by the Beach Boys song, that and the fact that they performed so well in stock car races. I can remember that the machine shops were panicking when the engines got old enough to require rebuilding, In those days most shops used a boring bar which registered on the top of the block. The 348/409 engines combustion chambers were actually in the top of the block and the cylinder heads were flat like most diesel engines, this design resulted in the top of the block not being perpendicular to the bore, so the machine shops had to make an adapter to bring the top of the block perpendicular to the bore, I remember 17 degrees but that memory could be faulty. The 348/409 engines are unique in the Chevrolet engine world and because of their rather limited production they are sought after and famous.
Spartan old people like me think W block engines are just kool looking especially with a dual quad or tri power setup . If it were my truck I keep that engine in there. But it's not my truck so do what ever makes you happy, and enjoy your truck.
Brian 1955.2 3100 Truck The older I get the more dangerous I am!!!!!
Spartan old people like me think W block engines are just kool looking especially with a dual quad or tri power setup . If it were my truck I keep that engine in there. But it's not my truck so do what ever makes you happy, and enjoy your truck.
Thanks Brian,
I think it looks pretty cool as well. I just saw an original edelbrock manifold for 6 holly 94's. I think that would be awesome. Never ran a multi carb setup so it seems like a nightmare to tune but i think itd be a head turner for sure
348 and 409 W blocks. Dip stick on driver side for 348. Passenger side for 409. The 409 is worth thousands and thousands if complete. Pull it out and sell it. $5000 minimum. Get the serial code off of the front head pad and post it. It's a stamped number not a cast number. .
The GMC V6 is neat, I have one. Very inexpensive to buy. 305 cu in and up. A basic boat anchor but very well engineered and nostalgic. Torque monster.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
348 and 409 W blocks. Dip stick on driver side for 348. Passenger side for 409. The 409 is worth thousands and thousands if complete. Pull it out and sell it. $5000 minimum. Get the serial code off of the front head pad and post it. It's a stamped number not a cast number. Could be really valuable if off of the right vehicles.
The GMC V6 is neat, I have one. Very inexpensive to buy. 305 cu in and up. A basic boat anchor but very well engineered and nostalgic. Torque monster.
Thanks Bartamos, what is it that the serial code will tell me?
And I have wanted a 478 for a long time now. I finally found one on craigslist in SF area but the guy wants $2500 and that just seems too steep for an old motor that few people know exists let alone want.
Tells you the car hopefully. May tell HP and etc. Go out and get that number. It is an alpha numeric serial number. Be sure to just use a non metal brush and clean off the pad with gas or carb cleaner. The SUFFIX LETTERS ARE REALLY IMPOTANT TO READ ACCURATELY. This could be your lucky day. (Impala SS). The 409 was built 61-65.
Post a few pics before I have a heart attack. Be sure the dip stick is on the passenger side.
Yes $2500 too high but the big motor is the most wanted by GMC nuts.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
The dipstick is on the passenger side, but more importantly the casting number on the rear of the block definitely says its a 409. I'll get a few pics in a minute, this motor sounds pretty awesome it has a beautiful rumble.
If it has the original air cleaner, that could be up to a separate $1000 maybe. You can run it if you want to. I would not. Get a good video with sound before you pull it, if you do. Don't tell me if it has dual quads. Just don't tell me. This is one of the only old school hot rod Chevy motors that keeps going up and up.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
No not original. As I sad earlier, 409 car motor is 61-65. Impala SS. This W block was the first Chevy Big Block/Rat Motor. The 1958 348. That's why I thought it might be a 348 truck motor. The serial should be on a stick-out step pad on the passenger side head, in front of, and below, the valve cover.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
No not original. As I sad earlier, 409 car motor is 61-65. Impala SS. This W block was the first Chevy Big Block/Rat Motor. The 1958 348. That's why I thought it might be a 348 truck motor. The serial should be on a stick-out step pad on the passenger side head, in front of, and below, the valve cover.
I believe they did not use the 409 on truck. Not positive. The 348 is known to be a "truck motor", sort of. The 348/409 was offered on all the Impalas (5) as RPO. The SS option can be 348 or 409. The 409 ran a 15 sec 1/4 mi right off the factory line. Very few SS ordered with 409 in 61. Z11. 4 different HP's. That's why you need the serial.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
Without question, 100% pull it. What model is the 59? It's possible if the motor is 63 and up, that your trans will fit all V8's and the motor mounts may also. Someone may know better about that. It will make the swap easy.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
There were two series of 409's- - - - -car and truck versions. Truck 409's came with low compression for use with regular gasoline, a lugger camshaft, and a much more rugged lower end than the factory hotrods. Lots of dump trucks and road tractors ran them. Pull some casting numbers, especially off of cylinder heads, and do some homework. The 64 engine with the 2 4-barrel intake and a hot factory cam is the one everybody goes ape-scat over. One of the schools where I taught from 1980-85 had a 1965 single 4-barrel version that had never been started, donated by General Motors. We tore it down once, and the pistons still had the weight handwritten on each one with a felt-tip marker. After I moved on to another job, somebody stole it. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Yep, and the 409 would have been virtually a bolt-in swap for the 348 that might have been original equipment. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
"Drive it like you stole it!" Just be aware its a torquer, not a screamer. Above 5500 RPM the valves start getting a little twitchy. When the 348 came out in the 1958 Impala with three 2 barrels, the guys who were used to running their tight-winding 265's and 283's by just standing on the loud pedal and letting 'em scream hand-grenaded a lot of engines. Keep it under 5 grand and it will pull like a freight train. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I see the air brake compressor so it is probably a high deck 409 truck engine. If the top water pump bolts are nearly even with the deck it is a car engine and if the bolts are 3/8" or so below the deck it is a high deck. The low deck engines bring the big bucks and have songs written about them but the real racers used the high deck block for reasons given by Jerry plus they could be stroked a bunch. A stock bore 409 with a 454 crank gives 503ci---just one example. The head design is terrible, the valve train lousy, and very feeble rev capacity. With that said, Dennis Piranio in Denton, Texas did thousands of hours of standing in front of a flow bench and strobe lighting valve train action to come up with a "W" engine that makes around 700hp normally aspirated (carb). Just the story on valve train geometry will leave your mouth hanging open. If one needs bored now it is no sweat with the Rottler Boring Machine as it never touches the block deck. Picture of a 409 (503) that turns ten second 1/4 mile times in a 4000# car; not bad.
The 348 was the only engine put in the 1959 100 Spartan, there were no other engine options available, so the 409 would be a bolt in replacement motor.
The 1965 Truck 409 V-8 and the 1970 GMC/Chevrolet 478 V-6 both have almost the exact specs...HP (252 vs 254) and Torque (390 vs 430) with the 478 being about 110 pounds heavier.
If it were my truck, I'd keep the 409 as there's really no gain in doing all the work necessary to shoe horn in the 478.
Mike B
Mike Boteler
1956 Chevy 3100 Resto Rod 1952 Willys M38 Army Jeep 1983 Jeep CJ7 Laredo 1984 Jeep CJ7 +++++ Silver Spring, MD
If it were my truck, I'd keep the 409 as there's really no gain in doing all the work necessary to shoe horn in the 478.
Mike B
Thanks Mike. The 478 swap would be just because I wanted to be different. Not for performance. But you'd keep the 409 over swapping to a 454 or ??? This thing is a blank canvas to me right now, I'm open to all the cool options.
The cool factor of a W engine is over the moon, especially to the millenial mouth breathers at a show and shine who have never seen one. If you plan to make the truck work for a living, the 409 is still a good option as long as you don't over-rev it. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
...if i remember correctly(?) wasn't the oil filter on different sides too?
Back in 66/67 I had the 58 impala 348 with 3 duces... I rebuilt it and ran like a wild cat with a sand papered butt....but like Jerry said, don't over wind it. I was always in high gear and hauling by the time most folks were still in second.....oh, I still have the scars from its final ride.
...... I'd be happy to come get it and you put that V6 in your truck. I can leave tomorrow.
The W engines were never really intended for passenger cars. Chevy had the 348 in the final stages of development as a medium-duty truck engine when the supercharged 57 Ford 312's started eating the 283-engined 57 Bel Air's lunch at the drag strip. Chevy hustled up and cast a 3-2 carb manifold and had Zora Arkus-Duntov grind a hot cam, and rushed it into production in the first-year Impala in 58. Later, it was made into a 409, and even a few W-style 427's were built for NASCAR racing when FIA set the max displacement for race engines at 7 liters. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
...if i remember correctly(?) wasn't the oil filter on different sides too?
Back in 66/67 I had the 58 impala 348 with 3 duces... I rebuilt it and ran like a wild cat with a sand papered butt....but like Jerry said, don't over wind it. I was always in high gear and hauling by the time most folks were still in second.....oh, I still have the scars from its final ride.
...... I'd be happy to come get it and you put that V6 in your truck. I can leave tomorrow.
If you supply the V6 I seriously might consider it. I really want one of those beasts. Deck it for 11:1 and keep her running on propane. Dream machine for me.
Just wondering- - - - -how many 478's have you rebuilt and/or run in the trucks they were produced for? Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
For the most part your truck is bone stock and everything bolts up and lines up. Swapping in that monster V6 will change EVERYTHING as nothing stock will work from the bell housing forward and EVERYTHING will be hard to find or need to be custom made/fabricated. In the end the WOW factor won't be any greater than the 409 that's in it now. 99% of the car show people don't even know or care what a 478 is, it will just be another big truck with a big nondescript motor...
Get the 409 running and see how your buddies react to it...I bet they'll love it!
My .02 cents,
Mike B
Mike Boteler
1956 Chevy 3100 Resto Rod 1952 Willys M38 Army Jeep 1983 Jeep CJ7 Laredo 1984 Jeep CJ7 +++++ Silver Spring, MD
Ever heard of something called a "billet crankshaft"? They've been around for at least 60 years that I can remember. King's Crankshaft will build one in just about any main bearing size and stroke length that will fit inside a block. The 38 pound King cranks we used in small block Chevy round track engines cost $5500.00 back in the 1990's. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Thanks guys that's why I started this thread for the conversation and to get good input. Sounds like i should just keep the 409 and that's fine because it is a cool motor and I like it. Drove it around a couple hours today and it's got plenty of power. Runs like a darn top too.
I guess the next question. What do you guys think about keeping it running on propane? I kind of like it, it's neat and different. I know lots of the pros and cons as this isn't my first propane rig, but what do you all think? Should I swap back to gasoline?
