The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Help in Florida - 1959 Apache Starting Problem (Dead)

I am the new owner of a family owned 1959 (Shortbed Stepside) Apache with Chevy 235. It was running in last couple of weeks as I have a video. Came off the transport truck and was told the battery was dead or weak so I pushed it in the driveway. Finally got back to it due to work related travel (Defense Contractor) Turned key to left for accessories, lights work fine. It did seem weak so I replaced the battery, stomped the foot starter and nothing. Made sure key was to the right to energize the coil, nothing. Not a single sound from the starter.

Ordered a new starter, new positive cable to battery and starter, new ground strap from starter, original wiring harness, new ignition switch, spring for starter arm and few misc pieces. Installed new starter, replaced ground strap, positive battery cable, spring and tightened all wires at ignition switch.

Again, nothing. Not a single sound from the starter when floor button engaged. But noticed that the battery gauge jumps from F to E when I step on the starter button. Lights still work in accessory mode. Is it grounding out somehow? Do I need to rewire the whole truck or bypass the ballast resistor? Every time this happens the new battery drains down from 95-100% (per my Diehard digital charger) to less than 50% with just a few start attempts.

I just don't get what is happening. Ignition switch wired as following: Currently the heavy black wire from top starter button is going to BAT, ignition coil wire running to ballast and side starter are on IGN, and red wire running to instrument panel (have not investigated all wiring) is attached at ACC. This is how it was when it showed up.

Any ideas to check here? Thank you so very much.
Andy

Will the starter motor run without engaging the drive gear? Just use a big screwdriver or a pry bar to depress the switch at the starter housing without pushing the pedal to engage the drive gear in the flywheel. If the starter runs that way, check to be sure the engine isn't locked up by putting the truck in high gear and rolling it forward. The engine should turn.

Did you bench test the replacement starter by connecting jumper cables to it and operating the linkage? "New" doesn't always mean "good". In this kind of situation simply throwing a wheelbarrow full of new parts at the job doesn't mean you have diagnosed the cause of the problem.

Would you allow a doctor to start doing major surgery on your body without a good diagnosis of what's making you sick in the first place? No difference!
Jerry

Agree with Jerry, if you don't hear anything at all, I would start by testing your old starter out of the truck with some jumper cables.

Can you spin the engine over by hand? (spin the fan blade, may need to push down on the belt but should be able to at least get the engine to move some)

I will try the starter button without the drive gear being engaged via the pedal. I tried that previously with the old battery and starter combo with no dice. Will try the new starter and battery tomorrow. If this doesn't work then where so I start? Testing the replacement starter on bench.

Thanks for your advice.

Good points, 69Cuda. Concerned about possibility of it being seized to some degree ---- I tried doing this and the fan blade will spin with heavy resistance but it looks like it is just spinning out of the belt, the whole unit (engine shaft or belt assembly) doesn't seem to be budging at all.

yes, pull new starter back out and test on bench. Also, make sure the engine is not seized. (that is why I suggested spinning by hand)

You can also pull the inspection cover off the clutch/flywheel and using a pry bar see if the flywheel will move....It should not take much pressure. This will help confirm if you can't turn it with the belt/fan.

If you choose to remove the new starter for bench testing, there is plenty of room to use a pry bar on the flywheel teeth through the starter hole to engage the teeth. With that amount of leverage available, the engine should turn easily. It's still simpler to use the weight of the vehicle to bump the engine over by putting the transmission in gear and pushing (by hand). Don't get tempted to tow the truck and pop the clutch with the transmission in gear- - - -you can break an axle, damage the transmission, or bend connecting rods if the engine is seized up tightly.
Jerry

I may have missed it in your write up . but if the starter is not making a sound that is the place to start. From frame to the bat con on the starter is there 13 v? Is there 13v on the ign side of the ballast res.? If itsa a stomp start There is a button(looks like the headlite dimmer sw) on the starter push that and listen for the motor to spin. Try this and answer back. If you were closer I'd drive over.

Hey, I would pay for your time and mileage getting over here to Valrico (Brandon) area if you can help. I just need a hand with things and trying to salvage this family truck. Really need to get it running right if possible and make sure it is tuned up and in good shape.

Thanks for the advice!

Thanks, Jerry. Man, appreciate the insight. If I hadn't saw the truck running in a video, I would have thought I was crazy, but it just doesn't seem right ---- like something happened to it. In any case, hopefully I can get it running properly.

Definitely needs a fair share of work to get it running right. Will try the bench starter routine and flywheel/engine turnover procedures and report back.

Thanks.

If you pull the spark plugs that will make it easier to turn the engine by hand. If it turns easily then make sure #1 is at TDC and look for the BB on the flywheel . If that looks ok then remove dist cap and see that rotor points to #1. If it turns easy and all looks ok then check the starter again. It should make some noise. You didnt say but do you have a volt meter? a analog one is best as you can set points and get a steady volt reading. Good luck. Small steps will get you to your goal.

I put the truck in high gear and bump it forward, I can see the fan, alternator pulley and belt move. It doesn't appear to be seized up at all.

I put the truck in high gear and bump it forward, I can see the fan, alternator pulley and belt move. It doesn't appear to be seized up at all.

Pull the starter and check it yourself or have it check at a shop.if the engine is turning over your problem is with the starter or maybe a wiring issue. Check all the ground connections from the battery to the cab and starter to ground.

Hey. I am from NOLA. Grew up on Westbank. Lived in Metairie before Katrina through 2010. Small world!

Yes it is, smaller than people realize. Did you have an AD style truck and live in Mandeville at one time? I remember talking with someone a couple times that had some problems with an Ad truck.

Battery negative to ground behind tray to truck chassis. Positive to top solenoid on starter. Wire from same starter post to BATT position on key switch, wire from side post on starter and 12V coil to IGN position on key switch. Red cable heading to instrument panel on ACC position on key switch. Not sure what is wrong. Will pull and check starter.

Looking at the wire diagram from shop manual,and you have the right wires and looks like they are connected correctly. Hopefully you just got a bad starter.

Your getting excellent advise.
If you have a remote starter switch (don't cost much at your LAPS), you can connect it directly to your starter and bat and engage it while on your truck. This may help you isolate the issue.
I may have missed something, but sounds like there's a big drain on your battery. (short somewhere??)

What would be a likely cause for a short? Possibly the ballast resistor on the firewall? Can think of anything else...

The Ballast Resistor has nothing to do with the starter turning over, only the actual running of the engine. Do the tests recommended by Jerry and others above and the problem will be found.

Temporarily connect a jumper cable from the battery ground terminal to the bellhousing or any place on the engine, then try to crank the engine. It sounds like you're losing a ground from the engine to the chassis. There is SUPPOSED to be a ground strap from the bellhousing to the body and/or frame.

Most of us run a long battery ground cable all the way to one of the bolts that attach the starter, or at least to a bellhousing attaching bolt. Then run a smaller ground strap to the body to get a good circuit for lights, heater motor, etc.
Jerry

Good that you got the engine to move some. Still looks like the starter. did you keep the old starter? if you did it would be easy to bench test. One of the post mentioned a remote start sw. If you have a stomp start there is no solenoid on the starter motor. Depending on how the truck gets power I would try to isolate the start ckt from the rest. First issue is to get engine to spin. Is your battery in the stock location on the fire wall? disconect everything and just have acable to the engine (neg) and a cable to starter (pos)and have someone push the stomp pedal while you watch the starter motor for movement or noise. If nothing pull it and bench test. Then you will know you are good to that point.

I have a ground strap from bolt on starter to frame and other ground is from battery negative terminal to frame. The lights work fine. Doing nothing but reconnecting the battery cables, the starter ran but slowly for about 10 secs and now nothing. Lights still work. Fluke DMM shows 12.34V across battery. Seems very strange. Will test starter isolated from truck and see what happens.

Did
You
Run
A
Temporary
Cable
Directly
From
The
Battery
Ground
To
The
Starter?

You have all the classic symptoms of a dirty ground connection.
Jerry

Headlights go off completely when I stomp the starter, like a weak battery. Is this normal? Seems like a short or weak battery but battery is brand new and has 12V+ on it based upon my DMM.

Thoughts?

I have taught automotive electrical troubleshooting for over 40 years. PLEASE do it my way! You have a bad ground connection.
Jerry

Lol.... I am doing it shortly. Sorry Jerry.

One thing to remember doing Jerrys checks. Just because the cable is there and connected to something doesn't necessarily mean the connection is clean and bare metal to bare metal. To be safe, take each connection loose and wire brush or sand it prior to putting it back on. Good luck.

That's the reason for bypassing all the intermediate connections with a jumper cable. If the starter spins normally, or at least better, then disconnect every connection until you find the bad one. The hot side can be checked the same way. Be absolutely sure both the battery posts and inside the cable ends are shiny clean. Scrub them thoroughly with a wire brush.
Jerry

Connected jumper cable from batt negative to starter ground strap. Batt positive to top starter connection. Same exact symptom. Lights go dark, off instantly when starter floor button is pressed. 12.64V across the battery posts.

Idk.

Bad starter?

To start the diagnosis (sorry about the pun):
Take the starter off,
clamp it in a vise,
attach battery/cables appropriately,
the starter should spin.

2 bad starters?

Battery cables can get corroded underneath the wire
insulation where the eye can not see it. This is why
a voltage drop test is needed. If you do not have a
good volt meter then physically take apart all the wire
connections and clean them as Jerry said.

If all contacts have been cleaned and still have a problem
and the starter motor spins good on the bench then go
with new battery cables. Jeffrey

OK, I apologize for butting in and may not be as experienced as you guys are; I have to agree with Jerry and the grounds. It may be possible to have fried 2 starters but I would say it's the battery ground at the frame. The starter should spit the "bendix" out and you should be able to hear that. If that's not happening, you've got a load drop caused by a short to ground. With the headlights dimming or going out like that, I'd be willing to bet it's corrosion either on the block or the frame wherever the main ground is.

The "Bendix" on a stomp starter is all mechanical. It should be possible to run the starter without engaging the drive gear by pressing the button without pushing the starter pedal (which apparently hasn't been tried). This should be a 5-minute diagnosis job for someone who can run a voltage drop test. The circuit is as simple as it can possibly be.
Jerry

I put the old starter on the bench. Negative jumper cable to bolt flange area starter for ground. Positive to top post on starter. Large screwdriver depressed on button. Nothing. Guess I need to try the new starter next. What a joke, who tests these and how often do these starters fail?

Yes, take the new one off and test it. Also, take the push button assembly off and run power directly to the stud sticking out of the starter housing. What is the voltage at the battery posts while the start pedal is being pushed? (This takes two people- - -one to operate the pedal and another to measure the voltage.) It's remotely possible you've got an open circuit internally in the battery- - - -even a new one. It will show normal no load voltage and then drop to zero as soon as the starter load goes on it. Make this test directly on the posts- - -NOT the terminals bolted to them. Then repeat the test with the voltmeter connected to the cable terminals, not the posts. If the voltage is good at the battery and drops at the cable clamps- - -clean them!
Jerry

I always test them this way, when they show the symptoms that you posted.

No cost, and only a little time involved - also, if the starter behaves OK on the bench, if you clean/shine/copper-goop all re-connections (both the mounting surfaces, the bolts, and the cable ends), you probably will have solved your problem (bad grounds/connections).