The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Starting old 235

Hello all, I appreciate your help; I work long hours and don't get enough time.

I am trying to start a 58-62 235 Ci in a 49' Suburban. The PO mentioned it ran 5 years ago. I had starter problems and the original would not turn the motor. The motor is not seized as far as I know. I can turn it at the flywheel using a screwdriver.

So what I have done so far and what problems still remain
New starter
Grounded the block to frame
New positive and Negative battery cables
++
After that, the starter turns the motor, but not very quickly or consistently; what I mean, is if I crank it 6 times, each crank is different and longer or shorter than others and seems to follow the sequence every time.
2nd Issue, voltage to the coil, but no spark to the plugs. I removed a plug to check spark to ground. No spark, I can hear compression and smell the starter fluid from the cylinder where I removed the spark plug.
To note, due the size of my available battery from my running 66' Suburban, I am jumpimg the battery to the new cables

Let me add, after removing the crusty contact dist. cap, i put a new cap, rotor and wires. I will check points next

thanks for your help!

Have you tried to turn the engine over with the spark plugs removed? What does the oil look like? Black? New? Any water?
You don't want to get in a hurry to start the engine before you determine why the engine won't spin freely by the starter. Horrible, irreversible damage could result if one cylinder fires and the next one becomes locked up.
Look into these few things and get back to us. Then we can walk you through your ignition issues.

Thanks Carl, the oil looks good, golden brown, no water

I will remove (all?) the spark plugs tonight and crank

I am enjoying this very same experience, a 1953 with a 60 235 that is unknown. I would first check the compression. Nothing else matters if your compression is low or inconsistent between cylinders. Bottom of this article:

http://devestechnet.com/Home/TuneUpGuide

You came to the right place.. lots of expertise right here.

Hey Deve, so you have same turning over issue?

No. My compression turned out to be decent at between 118 and 123. But you have to do this first to see if the engine is worth moving forward. Start there, then move ahead. It is a great place to start.

I take it that you are boosting it with 12 volts. If it is a six volt starter, it should really move. I would ditch the starter fluid for sure. If the timing is too advanced, it will stop the rotation dead or almost stop it as it tries to fire.

Yes should be 12 volt starter
Thanks truckernix
I will try to set points and static time

52carl removing the spark plugs worked, now turns over good by starter. Removed valve cover and head looks good, clean and oil wet. Rockers look nice and tight. Any further help is appreciated

biglou,

You might want to determine if your engine has mechanical or hydraulic lifters (I think that is not mentioned by you, above). This info might not be critical to starting your engine, but it is nice to know.

One way to be almost certain of which you have is to find and post the Engine Serial Number here (the ESL is stamped into the block, to the rear of the distributor).

Someone here will help you decode it.

Hey tclederman, thanks for your post. S/N 3837004, should be 55-57

That is the block casting number. It most likely had hydraulic lifters.

Look in the location I posted above. The engine serial number will confirm hydraulic/mechanical.

If I read it correctly you are running jumper cables from battery to new cables. you would be better off and it would have less voltage drop if you took the time to attach your battery directly to the new cables.

Ok checked all cylinders for compression every thing above 115
Now when I align the bearing on the flywheel with the point, the rotor is pointing to 9 o'clock

That will be where you will want to line up the #1 plug wire, then go through the firing order to correctly line up the other plug wires.
Carl

Ok final update
Checked compression in all cylinders, everything above 115
Did the straw technique on #1 cylinder. Upon smashing the straw, the rotor was pretty much at 1 o'clock; the bearing was lined up on the point as well. The points were not particularly on the lobe, so I adjusted the dist. and set the points to .016".
Put new plugs in and tidied up; now it's back to struggling to turn over and no sort of sound of trying to combust.
Now I mentioned prior, I am running the power remotely via external battery and jumper cables. This is because I am borrowing my battery from 66' GMC Suburban and it doesn't fit in the underfloor battery well. I will buy a battery soon and avoid any voltage drop
Now to the questions
I have read that the dist. Clamps should be parallel with the block and the rotor pointing to 6 o'clock. If I'm pointing at 1 oclock, is my dist out 180? Also the clamps are diagonally to the block
Is the timing that far off that it won't turn over strong like when the plugs are out?
Since it has sat for a number of years, could the exhaust be blocked by rodent debris and causing the struggle?

As always, thanks to those that have read and responded to my post

it doesn't matter where the rotor is pointing, just get #1 up on TDC on the compression stroke, and wherever the rotor is use that as #1. As long as the wires go to the cylinders in order you are golden. You can set the timing by having #1 on compression, with the pointer on the BB, loosen the clamp on the distributor, turn it clockwise till the points open then close, then using a thin piece of paper (cigarette paper type thin)between the points, turn it counter clockwise till it just lets go of the paper with a light tension on the paper. Then lock it down, and you should be nearly dead on. As far as struggling to turn over you either have a bad starter, bad battery, or more likely bad cables and or connections. (I.E. jumper cables)

The only way you will know that it is ready to fire on #1 is by the position of the valves. With the valve cover off and the pointer at the flywheel at the ball or triangle, both rockers on #1 cylinder should have play in them.

Unless the jumper cables are made of welding leads as big as your thumb, trash them and connect the battery directly to the starter and the engine block. You're whizzing in the wind otherwise.
Jerry

Got it
Will install battery today and check!

Ditto. Tried what you're trying and got tired of whizzing in the wind

Thanks hot rod Lincoln
That was it; it coughs and sputters. Timing is way off at 35 degrees

Can any body help with timing?? Does 35 degrees seem feasible

Set to the timing mark to get it started.

Warm up the engine and then reset the idle speed, and then reset the fuel mixture, and then the idle speed (if necessary), and then set the timing. I use a vacuum gauge for mixture and timing.

Ditto with tcleaderman. The "BB" will get it started. The Vacuum gauge is your best friend. A dwell meter will let you know the point gap and coil are happy. (humor and opinion)Timing light? We don't need no stinking timing light. Honestly, a timing light(with the delay function) could be helpful when you want to know the "Total" advance, with the engine tuned. Useful when attempting to replicate when changing after a complete tuneup(points, condensor, cap, rotor, and plugs). But..I would still use the Vacuum gauge and leave the timing light for the more modern stuff. Just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks guys
I have the dwell meter but no vacuum gauge

Ok, update
Almost got it to start with some coughs and a little fireball out of the carb

Cranked with the distributor cap off, saw the points open and close and spark
Put everything back together, cranked and check dwell, 35 degrees
Tried cranking with original carb, no coughs, removed the original Rochester carb, intake manifold flooded with gas

Installed newly, professionally rebuilt carter YF carb, better attempt to start, hear some coughing from the carb and exhaust sound out if the tailpipe
Tried to start with choke on and off. It's so close!
Opened the throttle and looked down into intake manifold, new carb still puddling intake manifold
Is this normal?

Did you set the timing to the flywheel mark? Might as well verify firing order while you're at it. 153624. With the the flywheel mark on pointer, the #1 cylinder should have both pushrods loose and rotor pointed at #1 wire. If all those things are not true rotate the mark around one moe time and check again.

The pool in the manifold is probably from cranking and cranking and no start.

Mine exhibited similar symptoms until I manually advanced the distributor a smidge.

Double check the firing order 1-5-3-6-2-4 (in clockwise rotation).

It sounds like you are very close to starting it. At this point I would make very small adjustments to the timing. A little one way and then maybe a little the other way. If it stops dead or almost stops when you are cranking, the timing is too far advanced. I also like to power the coil from a separate source like a battery charger. That way you get a full spark even when the starter is dragging down the battery voltage.

set your initial timing like I said previously, you will be nearly dead on. Don't worry about dwell right now, just gap the points correctly. And no 35 degrees isn't feasible. You need to follow the steps I gave you, (there is a couple of more ways to do it, but it will suffice) you can't just look at the rotor and guess that it is close enough. if you aren't on #1 TDC you will be on #6 TDC either rotate the engine one revolution or just relocate the wires accordingly.

Brokenhead
Thanks for the follow up
I thought I had every squared away and was so close to starting
I will start over again
In regards to play, approx how much are we looking for? If I recall, both 1 and 6 rockers could move a little, for example the push rods could be moved slightly

"Loose" and "tight" pushrods are much too subject to interpretation when trying to establish which cylinder is on the compression stroke. Here's a better method:

Rotate the crankshaft in a clockwise direction, either by bumping the starter or putting the transmission in high gear and rolling the vehicle forward, until the #6 exhaust valve starts to open. It's the last one at the back end of the cylinder head. Continue turning the engine until the exhaust valve opens fully and starts closing. Watch the #6 intake valve (second one from the rear) and stop the engine just as it's beginning to open. This position is called "rocking", with the exhaust closing and the intake opening. At that point, both the #1 and #6 pistons are exactly at the top of their stroke. #1 will be at the top of the compression stroke with both valves closed.

At this crankshaft position, rotate the distributor housing clockwise until the points close. Turn it back CCW until the points just barely open. Lock the distributor adjustment down.

Use whichever distributor cap tower the rotor is pointing toward as #1- - - -position doesn't matter. Arrange the remaining wires clockwise as 5-3-6-2-4. Install the distributor cap, turn on the ignition switch, and crank the engine. I guarantee it will start!

This timing procedure has worked for me for almost 60 years.
Jerry

Thanks Jerry!
I will try tomorrow and report back

that is what I said...

Thanks all of you
I will try to get to it tonight

Well that was it! After following the procedure told by Hotrod Lincoln and Brokenhead, she started right up! Hell even with the vacuum advance, she came right into 5 deg. Btdc using timing light
Thanks again guys

Once again the collective wisdom has prevailed!

very good, I been checking back to see how you did. Some times watching these threads is like playing chess by mail, gotta wait for the next move.