The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk 1930 chevy truck title issue

Here's a real bureaucratic travesty.
Some of you have heard about my truck from my wifes farm.
My father in law bought the farm and the truck came with it. It was never taken off the farm on to the roads. It was used to haul hay and water around the farm. In 1956, he got a new truck and drove this one up on the hill and turned the key off. It's been sitting there ever since.

My father in law passed years ago. My brother in law has gone through all papers (which there are few of) to see if there is any record of the truck or a title.
No Luck!

Since there were no VIN numbers on vehicles in these early vehicles, the Colorado DMV says that I have several procedures to go through to get a title.

(1) I have to get an licensed appraiser to give a value on the vehicle.
I went to one this afternoon to feel him out before getting an appraisal. He really played it up to say it was a valuable collectors vehicle and he would have to do a lot of research before the appraisal to get a accurate value.
Him pulling up a couple of rust buckets on Ebay that were $8,000 , I could see where this was going.
Of course right now, it's a paper weight.

(2) once I get the appraisal, the rule is: I have to go to a bonding agent and post a surety bond for twice the appraised value. If it's $8,000.00 then I have to post a bond for $16,000.00 ***NON-REFUNDABLE***
WHAT?????!!!!!!! IT'S A PAPER WEIGHT!

(3) Step Three: Back to the DMV to fill out a bunch of more paper work, pictures of the vehicle, the appraisal, a certified letter from my father in-law. (Which is dead) Stating that he gave the vehicle to me as a gift. All of this has to be sent to Denver office to be reviewed for a tentative approval.
WAIT! I PUT UP A $16,000.00 NON=REFUNDABLE BOND AND I MIGHT NOT BE APPROVED?

(4) If approved, then I have to fill out another form or two and take everything to the County Sheriffs office for him to create a hand stamped VIN with an invented VIN number.

(5) step five: Back to the DMV. They have to do a title search on the number that the Sheriff created to be sure that there is no one that owns that VIN.
WHAT???? THEY CREATED THE NUMBER.

(6) Step Six: Back to the sheriff if everything checks out OK with the VIN. The sheriff then contacts the Highway patrol, mails all the stuff out to them, along with the hand stamped VIN plate.

(7) Step seven: State patrol will either mail me a letter or call me setting up an appointment date and time that an officer will be at my residence to physically affix the VIN tag.

This is such garbage. And because of government bureaucracy, has discouraged me so much, it may stop me from proceeding.

Any suggestions?

Don't blame the government. Blame crooks and car thieves for causing all this red tape. The appraisal is cheap. The bond does not cost $16,000, it's a simple insurance policy, about $300. There will be these costs on a FREE truck. Start the process so it gets done. What the heck do you want them to do? Hand a license plate over the counter to any Tom, Dikk or Harry who walks in? Without a vehicle for them to see or any ownership papers? $8000 sounds high but then again you did not say what model or condition. Your question about a frame and title is probably a joke but should not be included in your post in case it's not. It's illegal.

The bond is 10% so it would be $1,600.00 (Thats if the App. comes in at 8,000.
And with no guarantee that it will be approved.
The paper work says that there is a minimum $400.00 fee
There are eight other fees that add up to over $600.00 also.

Seems rather extreme to me.

Just take it one step at a time...

1. Get a copy of Old Car Price Guide and see what they value the truck at before paying someone. I'd say your condition is the lowest #6

2. Call your insurance agent and see what a bond will cost using that OCPG figure (times 2 per the DMV), they are not that expensive.

3. Have the living owner of the farm write the letter that they got it with the farm as abandoned property, which is true and keep knocking the pegs down one at a time...

As a last resort you you can pay a title service to help you out...they advertise in Hemmings.



Good Luck!

Mike B

I was typing when you added the second post...

Look in truck round up it will be way cheaper and do not tell us the outcome, we don't want to know...

Mike B

Thats scarey!
BTW, they have an abandoned vehicle law, we tried that route, but once again, it has to have a VIN.
I think it's that chicken and the egg thing. Lol

Bartamos, sounds like you understand the requirements of DMV.

Here is a brief story on another problem and wondered if you had any recommendations.

Party A lien sales a vehicle in CA with a under $4000 lien paperwork. The vehicle, a piece of junk is sold to Party B for 15k. Party B puts car on ebay and is sold for 30 grand overseas to Party C. Party C asks a friend to get a title from DMV after proper application for title paperwork is completed. Vehicle has been off the records for years. At DMV, the paperwork is confiscated due to the lien paperwork being under $4000 instead of over $4000 and the party C is told no title will be issued and the car has to be re-lien sold by Party A all over again. How can Party A re-lien a vehicle that was sold to Party B and resold to Party C as advised by DMV? DMV investigations states that Party C has to sue Party A, even though he bought the vehicle from Party B with the paperwork from Party A. DMV investigators won't give any further details or written direction and now everyone is confused after DMV cited Party A for supplying false info to DMV. ( Apparently the discrepancy of the under and over 4000 paperwork) Now, party A made 15 grand, Party B made 15 grand and Party C spent 30 grand and no one has a clear title for a vehicle that is clear in the system. I think everyone is confused! Is there any professional DMV people to comment on this mess?

I don't know the situation but IF the truck lies on family property and that property is owned by a family member due to inheritance, then the truck is theirs. They can sell it to you for $5 or $500 by using a bill of sale. That is a form of ownership and sets a price that it is worth. Maybe that would help. What someone pays for something is supposed to be an appraisers no. 1 method. (willing seller/willing buyer) If it's not on family property or some other issue, maybe the above may spark an idea. None of the above is crooked, dishonest or illegal.

PDlightning,
Wow, I don't even want to try to figure that out.

Who's on first, What's on second, I don't know.
Third Base!

And if you understand that. You're telling your age.

Dave,

Your truck DOES have a vin the LR xxxx Chassis number and the TI 91xxx Engine number were both used back in the 30's for title purposes. so a bill of sale would need one of those numbers on it (I'd use the chassis number because someone may change the motor some day).

Mike B

Bartomas,
We tried it that way at the DMV. They said NO that only shows that the vehicle was given to me. The property was owned by my brother in law. That's what I actually will have to do as a bill of sale.
They said that I still have to get an appraisal. They want their bucks.

Mike B,
This is an interesting theory.
I'm gunna see if there is a frame number and see if I can get it by the DMV. This DMV is in a small towm nearby.
If I have a bill of sale with that number on it and they try to run a title search, maybe it will come back with no one and that may satisfy them. Then I can make my own stamped VIN or get the Sheriff to make me a VIN.
Hmmmmmmmm. Very interesting.

Dave,

Frames were not stamped until 1955 second series. The two number you have (engine and chassis) are all that were ever put on your truck. Have the DMV run both of those numbers.

Mike B

Mike, understood.

Dino:Usually these bonded titles last for about 3 years and then you can get a real title. I know you are mad and rightly so but you will have to suck it up and be real nice to the DMV folks or they will be your worst nightmare. The cost all depends are your plans and motives. You want it because it was your wife's father's or you want to flip it or just restore or ? and what condition it's in and completeness and rare accessories. Probably far less 1930 Chevy trucks than Fords and so on.

Bartomas,
This made me think about a bill of sale from my brother in law. Why would I need an appraisal if I got a bill of sale for $200.00
If I purchased a junk 62 chevy from someone for $200.00 and that was on the bill of sale, that is what I would pay in taxes on it. Of course I would have a title in that case.
But getting a title is really not the issue here. It's getting a VIN # and that is satisfied by getting a letter from my brother in law stating that this vehicle was abandoned on the family property 60 years ago. I guess.

Don't over think it. IF he is the rightfull owner, then get a normal bill of sale from him stating your names, dates, description of vehicle, address and price. Or use a bill of sale form from the CODMV. The price may or may not mean anything to DMV because what this is all about is if someone comes along and proves it is their truck, they will get paid what they say it's worth up to $16000 or $8000 or maybe the truck. I know it won't happen but that is the procedure in most states. If you stick to truth and pay the money, you will sleep at night and be a better man.

HOWEVER:

In your unique situation where you know the history, you know that no one could prove ownership but you, you don't need to do anything or spend any money. Get a bill of sale and an affidavit from the brother in law. If you are going to fix it up and drive it, that takes years and money and plans change. If you are going to flip it as is, or sell it after fixing, you still don't need a title. Sell it on with a bill of sale. Take a pic of it on the farm and drag it home and stare at it, love it, admire it, clean it up and examine it.

I agree with Bart...less is more.

Mike B

I recently concluded a similar odyssey in getting my 54/55 2-20 GMC COE registered. I won't go into the details but will add one other thing to consider (but, I was luckily able to avoid).

I failed to try to register this truck when I bought it in 2007 for $1,500.
I had a "defective" title and "defective" bill of sale.
Both the title holder and the seller have died in the time since I bought the truck.

If I had not been able to find a helpful/reasonable person at DMV (County Clerk Office), I would have had to get a bonded title (which would become a real title in 3 years if no one makes claim on the truck).

The amount of the bond would be the value of the truck. (the present appraised value, since I did not have valid sales-receipt/document)

The bad part of this (in my situation) would be that I would have to get an appraisal of the COE now:
- after I have almost finished restoring the truck (maybe 10x to 15x the amount I paid)
- because, I had a defective receipt: no date and no notary signature).

On my 5th trip to the DMV, I was served by a reasonable person (a friend of a friend) who was determined to find a way to work this out for me.

The moral of my story is:
1. have friends in high places
and/or
2. get your title resolved before restoring your "junker"

All states have ways to get/use/provide/accept a bonded title.
All states (I guess) want to get the taxes due on the sale of a used vehicle.

Don't even start that subject here. Using a title off of a different vehicle to title your vehicle is illegal. It's a form of fraud that we on the 'bolt don't condone or allow to happen on this site. I have deleted numerous threads in the For Sale forums for offering titles. It seems the easy way out and probably is but consider this, it's dishonest and representing a truck as something it's not.

Find a different appraiser. There are certified vehicle appraisers all over the country. Google it.

Hey Tim,
Thats why I don't want to start on restoring the truck until this is all solved.
If I do it after I restore it, value will cost me a lot more. A bunch more.
It's killing me. I want to get started and can't.
I have no intention of selling it. This is the only thing from the farm that we can pass down through the family. It will be cool when it's done. My kids are really excited about it.
This sets up a different problem, because all three kids want it willed to them. Bummer!!!!!
Hah
I would be curious to know if others that have these old vehicles that were passed down through the family, if the original title had any identifying numbers on them and when the title was transferred, did the DMV make them get a VIN number created for it?

If you have to use an appraiser find a different (honest) appraiser than the crook you went to. Looking at your photos previously posted your truck is worth no where near $8000. At this point it is worth salvage value or scrap iron value. Get a bill of sale from the current owner of the farm and start your process there. Get the title work done before you start dumping money into the build that is unless you plan for it to never be on the street. It is a process and you will just have to deal with it.

As Tiny says the Title for Sale sites are selling an illegal product. While the probabilities of getting caught are slim they still exist.

I agree.
At this point, it's a large paper weight.
But when you have these rust buckets selling for so much, how do you justify scrap?
Heres a good example. Ebay listing for a 1932 truck rust bucket body. No frame, engine, etc.
$8,000.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-Chevrolet-Canopy-Express-Pickup-Truck-1925-1926-1927-1928-1929-1930-1931-/181680340728?hash=item2a4cfdfef8:g:ed4AAOSwBLlU9Kno&vxp=mtr

Tim has a valid point. Find a reasonable DMV person. I had to do that once, saved me a lot of grief. Ask around which DMV works best.

I've titled many old vehicles through the years and never had a problem. The chassis number or engine number were the identifying numbers (vin) back then and they still work today. I've never had the DMV change any of the old title/vehicle numbers to something modern. You're luck as you still have both of these numbers on your truck!

Mike B

It may be listed on evil bay for $8000 but is it selling for that price or just being re-listed again and again? Ask your insurance agent for a list of reputable appraisers in your area and use one of those if it comes to that.

First off you notice there are no buyers at that price. I'll wager a cup of coffee that he gets no takers. Secondly it's a canopy express which is fairly rare BUT not worth the asking price. I could ask $100,000 for my '38 but I'd never be able to sell it for that.

I like the way this discussion is going. Good advice on playing this on the up and up. Sure the alternative way some use can work, but is it really worth the risk and potential cost? In the end, for me at least, I'm the guy in the shaving mirror. Who do I want to see looking back? Will I really be able to enjoy the finished product?

I have had at least 6 different 1954 truck titles from the states of Oregon, Washington, and Virginia. The titles used either the Engine Serial Number or the Vehicle Serial Number. In two of those states, VA and WA, either of those Serial Numbers was used for different trucks.

My guess is that whichever of the two codes from a new truck was given to DMV (or the County Clerk's office) by the dealer, that SN was put on the title. Unless: the state had an official first-hand look at (observe) a specific code (from a specific location).

I cannot figure out why an engine code would be used as an ID, except that a ID code-plate could more easily be fooled-with than could an engine?

Martin, said it best. Ask your, or anyone else, insurance company for a list of their approved appraisals. Get that appraisal and check it off...

Lets all remember, each state DMV is a little different. We all have our tales...try getting one in S.C.!!
I've found that one DMV is different from the other in the same state.
Above all else, be patient, consistent and talk to folks with experience. You can win this battle without it costing you and arm and leg.

Alvin,

That is why I got my COE registered in NY before I move to NC.

I have been told that DMVs in NC can be difficult for people from the boonies (rural areas, such as the one we are moving to).

My NY registration should sail right through NC DMV - I am already looking for a few historic license plates.

1 plate was used in NC in 1954 (rear plate - the lighted plate); and,
2 plates were used in in NC in/after 1955 (front and rear).

Hi All,
It was a very good day today.
I took off work and decided to go straight to the sheriffs office before going back to the DMV. Realize this little town has only two young girls that work there. I suspected that they weren't sure what they were talking about. Especially when I asked them they looked at each other with that "Dear in the headlights" look.
The paperwork they gave me didn't seem to fit my situation and everything kept going back to the VIN number.
Upon arriving at the sheriffs office, I explained my situation to the lady at the window. She directed me to the sheriff that is in charge of VIN inspections. Heres what he told me.
These girls don't know what they are talking about.
Apparently, it is a fairly simple process, but with a lot of things to do.
All I have to do is schedule a VIN inspection with him first.
It's only $20.00 but he is there to verify that there isn't a VIN.
He gave me a form (A declaration/explanation of why there is no title) and said that I need to fill it out explaining the situation. He said this is very common and won't be an issue.
He will then give me a report that will go along with my declaration and two pictures of the truck to take back to the DMV.
I also have to send in an appraisal however, he said I don't need a professional appraiser. I can just go to a dealership an get a simple appraisal on their letterhead. It just has to appraise at at least $200.00 because I still have to get a surity bond for at least $400.00
I called my dealer and emailed them a picture and they said that they would consider it scrap salvage of $200.00 and would be glad to do me an appraisal for me free. Woo Hoo
This is to be sent off to Denver with a whole $3.50 fee to get a VIN plate made.
Once it arrives, the sheriff schedules an appointment for the Highway department to come affix it to my truck $40.00
Not sure what the surety bond will cost. But doesn't sound like too much.

Plus, I found a passenger door today for $49.00. It's complete with all of the wood in good shape, handles, knobs, and even the glass. Woo Hoo!!! Just have to find a drivers door now.
Thanks for everyone that directed me in different directions. It's easy to get angry when several government officials give you different answers. I went to DMV and told them what the sheriff said. They called the main office and verified that the procedure is correct.
They did say that I would have a rebuild title for three years and that it would change to a real title if no one comes in with a title to claim it within three years. Probably how long it will take me to get-r-done.

Congratulations, Dinodave
You found the right person, who was able to give clear and correct answers.

In general, a DMV does not want to give a title/registration/ownership-confirmation to a vehicle that might be stolen. If they do make a mistake, and they did not follow procedures, the DMV is at fault and liable for facilitating fraud - they have to pay the aggrieved real owner for the value of the vehicle (if the vehicle subsequently has left that state/country, or cannot be found).

...and a home made pie to the Sheriffs Dept. topped with doughnuts. AFTER you get the bonded title. Glad it worked out good for you. Glad you are restoring the truck. A great family heirloom! Little towns are better.

Boltergeis,
Why are you looking for antique license plates?
Do you put those on the vehicle?

BTW, Looks like everyone has a nick name.
Someone put a nickname for me. Wrench Fetcher.
Does that mean I'm a Rookie?

Yup.

So how long before I graduate to another nick name?

Who knows Dino did I mention patience earlier! LOL

Congrats on your success. That is great....and you'll find that other door. Patience grasshopper, patience.

I hope I don't have to wait until AFTER I have finished my first restore.
To show you how big a Rookie I am, I didn't know why this site was called stovebolt.
I was going to ask, but didn't want to look stupid. I guess I blew that!
I googled, Whats a stove bolt?
Wow,I'm right on the front end of the stovebolt era.
Glad my bucket isn't a 1928 or I couldn't be a stovebolter.