The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Rust inhibitors

I keep hearing about rust inhibitors but I really know nothing about them. Should I look into using one of these products on my AD resto? How are these products usually used; meaning are they applied before the primer coat? Thanks for the great advice as always!

I have to tell you, I am not a fan of these "Magic potions". If you are refering to the products such as "POR-15", "Rust Bullet" and the like. However, I have and will use them under certain cercumstances. They are however NOT to be used unless you REALLY need them to "cover up" rust. That is all they are doing is "covering up" the rust, that just isn't a proper repair.

If you are refering to products like Epoxy primer, etch primer, or metal conditioners within a paint line like PPG, DuPont and the like, these are very useful and should be used on bare metal under you paint system.

I understand metal conditioners and primers what I was refering to other products. I was under the impression that there are products out there that can be sprayed on bare metal, under the primer coat, that will prevent the metal from rusting ever again. I don't know if this is just in my head or what? That is why I'm asking. Thanks!

Oh yes, you have been hearing it, they are marketing lies. The web is full of this talk about the magic potions.

There is NO such thing as something that will keep the rust away for ever, NO such thing. The best you can get is to etch prime and epoxy over that. Or etch prime and certain urethane primers over it. Then apply your top coat or base coat over that.

The thing is pick the paint company you plan on using, PPG, DuPont, Sherwin Williams, what ever. Then use the COMPLETE system they offer.

There are some products like Zero Rust and POR, that offer great products to apply over rust that can't be cleaned properly or where you just want to save time. But under your paint on the outside of the vehicle it is not a good choice.

I personally have a 72 VW bug with a rusted floor. I will be using POR on it instead of "doing it right" by sand blasting and etch priming. It just isn't worth it to me with this car to do it right. The POR will do just fine and it will last and look good enough for my little bug.

But on the outside, etch primer, urethane, sanding and base/clear.

I'm curious about the condition of your steel that would have you looking in the direction of one of these products under a "system".

I am doing a full restoration and I am going to sand blast everything and repair rust with patch panels. I have just heard alot about these products and I now know that it is nonsense. I thought it was, but I was just asking. The condition of my steel depends on where it is. Thanks!

Hi,
Im basically doing the same thing as you, but before sent it of to the painters I used some green rust repeliant (found it at Lowes), Like they said it wont prevent it forever but when i put it on my truck it looked like it was working, some bubbles came up, then it dryed and I sent it to the painters. But if you dont watch what you've done, you will notice new rust coming back. I suggest you do that then keep it out of the rain then send it to the painters. I'm not a big fan too, but whats $15 going to hurt you? Hope I helped...

Ingo,
Sounds like you'll have the external steel pretty well prepped so the automotive system should do a fine job for you.

For the nooks and crannies on the inside and all the cavities that will not get a white metal blast but will get closed up never to see the light of day again, then I would highly recommend ZR for all that steel.

2000 hour salt spray numbers, single package system, no isocyanates, goes on like paint did 20 years ago and it's not $150 a gallon......

Bruce Palmer
[email protected]

My dad had an 86 Chevy Astro van that was galvanized from the factory. It had spots where the paint had chipped and NEVER rusted! I was thinking of doing this to my truck. There is a place here in town, where I live, that could dip an entire truck cab. The thing is, I always thought that it was hard to get paint to adhere to galvanized metal? However, I am certain the Chevy Astro was galvanized underneath. What does anyone else think?

Zero Rust is the best. I have used it on panels that have been took to bare metal and it works great. I tried a few other products, rust converters etc. those are crap. ZR goes on easy, less toxic than other stuff, and it lasts.

I use whatever Eastwood sells and have had no problems with areas treated with it .I use it in areas with light rust that doesn't require panel replacement before I start the body work because it soaks into any little pits that paint or primer would bridge.

I used it first on a quicky Duster for my daughter that has a hard time with cars and trees. Anyway, I ran out of the stuff on a portion of the car and two winters later that portion of the car was all rust, and the treated portions were fine.

So I think a wholesale disreguard of rapid oxidizers is off the mark.

Larry

I use the eastwood rust products also and an pleased with the results. I clean up or sand blast the rust areas first, and give it a light coat for a litle extra insurance

I need to quickly take care of surface rust on the top of the cab. Would any of these products help for a temp fix, without being an problem until I'm ready to paint?

That is the first thing I do to a project when I buy one, spray all of the bad spots to stop the rust until I can get to it. Has never been a problem for me.

Larry

Well, I would have assumed pileing on with responses by now, about this product or that product but, will answer by saying that yes, our product will do a very nice job of locking down the rust until you're ready to do something about it.....
Bruce Palmer
[email protected]
www.zerorust.com

oriely makes a great 2 part system a metal cleaner and a conditioner it will eat the rust away what is left is just nice metal to work with. it shoulb be cleand with laquer before paint.

i am sand blasting all my body work and using ecthing primer to reduce the rust, putting the body work in my attic to be finished later. i have a 2 car garage and spare is a premium. then i will pull the engine and cab and work on the frame. now i do have a question about the blasting of the frame. should i disassemable everything from the frame, blast and paint and then assemable it back or should i blast and paint the rolling chasis as is? i am think about doing the disassembly of the frame. also what to use on the frame? ZR? POR? thanks in advance.

Rust is not a living breathing animal. There are products designed for rust protection and are not magic potions. They do not just cover up, they do work. For a successful repair you need to eliminate the rust because finish products may stick to the rust, but the rust does not sufficiently bond to the base metal and will not allow for a good moisture barrier. You can eliminate rust and prevent it in metal that has rusted through in area's, but it will not have the strength it had when new. Phosphoric acid removes rust, etches the metal in preparation for adhesion of top coats and converts it to a zinc phosphate which is proven to inhibit corrosion. Rust will not develope without moisture. This is where the so called magic potions come in. There are a couple of products on the market. What these products do is to seal the metal from moisture. With the absence of moisture you are assured rust will not (ever) return. This is from my 25 years experience in restoration and as a chemical sales rep. as well as dealing with over 500 accounts per month and asking them what works. Good luck with your projects and I hope this helps.

When I mentioned "magic potions" I was not refering to a metal conditioner that contains Phosphoric acid, that WILL remove rust. It is the mainstay of every REAL paint company out there. What I was refering to is POR and the like. They DO NOTHING but "cover up" the rust. They do not "convert" or anything of the sort. They "encapsulate" as the marketing department says. Look up the word "encapsulate",it is basically "wrapping around" or "covering up".

If POR did what they say it does, it would be found filling the hulls of freighters in 55 gallon drums going to every corner of the earth. It would not be found only in a swap meet stall in pints (ok, they have quarts and gallons) next to a guy selling Rally wheels and hub caps. :rolleyes: It would be in the Fortune 500 list, it would be the biggest thing in news in the trade journals of many industries around the world.

It is a snake oil, not much unlike the "engine rebuild in a can" or diet pills.

What do they put on the Golden Gate bridge (Click here) no POR there, how about Off shore oil rigs? (click here) no POR there either. NO, just zinc rich primer just as EVERY automobile manufacture uses! Galvanizing is Zinc by the way. It is called a "sacrificial" coating. It "sacrifices" it's self for the good of the parent metal.

If POR did what they say, GM, Toyota, Ford and the like would be buying train loads of it and guaranteeing their cars forever against rust. There would be no rust on trains, bridges, trucks, metal buildings, EVERYONE would be happy to pay the cheap prices POR sells for. One of it's main ingredients is a sap from a soft pine tree, sweet. :p

There is nothing we could ever do in our garages or shops that would prove one way or another. You need serious testing with a standard to prove anything. Slathering it on some rust and calling it good because it didn't come back doesn't mean a thing.

I am sorry, they have their place, I just want to throw up when I read over and over on forums about people believing the marketing depts sales pitches.

MARTINSR, I wish you would quit beating around the bush. :p

krissly1, how do you get ZINC phosphate from phosphoric acid and iron ?

Most if not all the rust inhibiting products on the market contain a zinc phosphate additive. This is the same additive that some of the paint products mentioned in the earlier posts. As for the Golden Gate Bridge, there are a few reasons. It would be costly, a controlled enviroment is preferred for the proper application of this type of product and containment during application of phosphoric acid on such a large scale could be hazardous as well as a liability. General Motors and any other auto makers would have no reason to make an automobile last forever. Therefore it would be not cost effective to treat the sheet metal for lifetime corrosion protection.

My vote goes to Zero Rust. It is the easiest to apply/reapply and does the job when applied as instructed. Cannot beat the prices either. Rattle can or pints available.

[img]http://hotrodders.com/images/smilies/smash.gif[/img]

No, most "rust inhibitors" do NOT have any zinc in them. There are "pretreatments" like POR's Metal Ready that do, they are a metal conditioner like DuPOnt, Sherwin Williams and every other company has had for half a century or more. But the government doesn't make them put the % on the MSDS (which I have in front of me). I suspect it is very little. It is largely phosphoric acid. POR-15 paint does NOT have anything of the sort, neither does Zero Rust paint as far as I remember. These products COVER UP the rust, they do not convert it in ANY WAY.

Now, if you think there would be a money issue in protecting one of the most recognizable land marks in the entire world (The Golden Gate Bridge), you are mistaken. And what would that have to do with off shore oil darricks? Why don't they use it there? Now remember, they use a zinc rich primer, POR has NO ZINC in it.

Your kidding me about GM not wanting to make a car last forever right? Of course they want to make it last forever. That is why there are 100,000 mile rust thru protection (with the zinc galvanizing and primer) and 100,000 tune ups and so on. It is a misconception that they "want" the car to wear out so you will buy another. We will buy new cars because we WANT new cars. This is America remember, do you really think all those people in the new $60,000 Cad Escalades bought them because their "old" car wore out?

Do you think all the cars in the wrecking yards were unusable? Send them to some third world country and you will see them last another 40 or 50 years and a million miles! We are a wasteful society. The MARKETING dept would love to say to someone that the car would last forever. People would love to hear it, they would not keep the car that long, but few think they are going to "not want" that new car they love today in a few years.

I did try POR-15 on the inside of a panel I could reach to apply the stuff but couldn't reach well enough to sand the rust away. I was disturbed to discover after following the instructions that the very expensive POR-15 simply peeled off in sheets, leaving the rust in the same exact condition it was prior. When I went to the paint store, they showed me a whole bunch of prep stuff from the same company that I needed to spend even more money on to insure the POR-15 worked.
I think it's misnamed. The stuff is so pricey that it should be called "POOR-15".

Anyway, I gave up, got in there with sandpaper the best I could, and then used one of these rust converters that turns whatever's left black and chemically alters it so that it's not rust anymore. In fact, the instructors at the body and paint class I take at night recommend that stuff.

Sometimes, what are you gonna do? You can't get into the inside of frame rails. If you could dip an entire frame in acid and then galvanize the whole thing inside and out, that would probably be the best. On frame rails, I wouldn't care if paint didn't stick.

The prep is probably most important. Without the proper preparation it's like MARTINSR says, you are just covering up the rust. Like I stated in my previous post, POR 15 will bond to the rust but the rust does not bond sufficiently to the metal. If all you do is spray on a metal conditioner and call it good, you will have rust return soon.

Krissly, we are heading for a middle ground here

I don't mean to sound like this is any kind of attack or something, it is nothing personal. I am peeeeeed about how POR is marketed that's all. You see, POR in it's very own instuctions tells you to "scrap off (or something to that effect) the loose rust" as a preporation for painting with POR paint! That is what it tells you to do, just scrap or wire brush off, I forget the exact language. Then paint the POR right over the remaining rust! This is just ludicrous!

It is wrong to give people the impression that this is going to fix their rust. I will read on forums all the time how people are believing this crap! I tell you, it is just like the diet pills, if it is something a person WANTS to believe, really WANTS to believe like they will loose weight without any work, they WILL believe it no matter how ridiculous the statment is.

If you were to treat the rust proplerly with the metal treatment (conditioner) with acid to convert the ferris oxide to iron oxide and then prime it with a good primer (preferably Epoxy) then paint it would be much better than slathering on some tree sap, don't you think?

If you were to treat it properly, then apply the POR it would "do the job", sort of. But then, you don't need the POR at all do you? It is NOT the miracle "This is not paint as you know it" (right off the POR instructions) product. It is just not a special once in a lifetime product.

Let me put it this way, if you use a "regular" primer and paint system without cleaning the rust off, up against POR without cleaning the rust off, POR will likely win. It is a "covering" that is better than "regular" paint systems. But it is NOT in anyway better than fixing the thing properly with a real paint system.
That is my point.

I'm powdercoating my frame; no need for any rust inhibition there.

Mike,
No rust inhibition needed in the powder coating realm is a valid statement as far as it goes. One thing to be aware of is that not all powder coaters are created equal and poor surface prep and cleanliness can kill a powder job very easily.
I'm not telling you this 'cause I'm the Zero rust guy. I'm telling you this 'cause a friend had a batch of steel carts go gunny bag on his customers in about a year due to the powder coating falling off in sheets.

I did have one powder coater here in OR use ZR to repair poor (read thin) powder applications when they happened, so as great as powder coating may seem, there still has to be enough film build to seal the steel just like there has to be enough ZR or anything else to do the job.

Good surface prep and enough film build you should be really happy with powder coating......

Bruce, thanks for the info. I'm utilizing the expertise of a powdercoater in Fla, Panhandle Powdercoating. They have an in-house blasting facility, so the frame is never in the weather once I bring it to them. He's done many a resto, and I have utmost confidence in his abilities, esp since I will be right there taking pics for my website....

I'm involved in racing (own a sign business), and the frames that have been powdercoated look like they did when they were first done.

This statement is false. The following is a link for instructions to the proper use and application of POR 15
http://www.por15.com/uploads/files/por-15%20application%20sheet.pdf
This tells you to First wire brush loose rust and scale. Second is to remove grease and oil. Third use a metal conditioner. And finally apply POR 15. This goes for any product. I agree with MARTINSR, if one uses any product thinking it is a magic potion and just paints over the rust without the proper preparation, the results will be a failure. I was not the first in this post to mention the POR products. I actually stated there are a few products on the market. I have used a few that were successful on jobs completed by me. But in all fairness and since the POR brand was mentioned, I thought I would use there product as an example. And I am not a POR representative and yes I have migrated to POR products with great success. I posted this for those that are researching products and methods for a successful Stovebolt project. Many products on the market will prevent future rust problems, with the proper preparation. Good luck with your project, whatever products and methods you choose.