The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Project 1959 235 Rebuild

I decided to do a fully documented How-To on this engine rebuild, so am starting a new thread. It will be fun! I am hoping to get each of you to comment and criticize as the project advances. So check back from time to time and tell me what I am doing wrong.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

Hopefully it will help others when they do the same thing.

Great detail on the lifters Deve, and excellent pictures to go with the steps you use. I will be following. As a real novice, but with a will to learn and no availability of experience from anyone I know or ever knew, your project will be of great value. Just the lifter steps so far have been great to see. Is the kerosene wash tank, etc. a home grown or did you purchase as a unit? Looks like a really handy deal.
Dale

I have 4 Harbor Freight 3 gallon parts washers. 3 of them are for storage. This is because the minute you put Kerosene in them, the motor starts melting. Just exactly like the Wicked Witch. So, I purchased the last one I bought and then decided I have had enough of that horrible woman, and purchased a Little Giant replacement pump.

This pump is made to use the very highly caustic Kerosene or most any petroleum derivative. You see, it's not really HF or Northern's fault. They are being government compliant, meaning WATER based fluids only. It took me a few hours and a few runs to the plumber to get the parts to convert it over, but now it works all the time and doesn't fail every few weeks. I've had this parts washer for over a year now and it works every time! What a concept! I gave the water based fluids a try, and I just wasn't sold. Time is important to me and this method cuts to the chase.

So, $40 or so for the tank, $120 for the correct pump, another $20 in misc parts for the conversion. Not cheap, but you never have to do it again! For engine rebuilding, its small but efficient and all I really need. DO try to use water based for awhile when you first get your tank. If that works for you, then no need to spend more money.

I'm in, let's get busy.

Added some more on the rocker assembly. Once that has been fully addressed, time to move on to the block.

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Deve...can you add a quick link in your tag line to the 235 rebuild project so we can navigate there quicker. Appreciate it.

Completed the Rocker Assembly today. Next few days I have to take care of real work stuff, so look it over, tell me what's wrong, missing, incomplete. This isn't your normal everyday good-ole-boy rebuild job, it's very thorough, so please keep me on track. NO corner cutting here! MUCH thanks to Pre68Dave for keeping me on track.

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Nice job Deve. It takes a ton of time and patience to document a project like this. Maybe with this much detail, I won't screw it up.

If you have questions, be sure to ask. If I don't know, I will find someone who does. By the time this is over, every system on an engine will be covered. Lots left to do!

I don't think that I want to introduce silica sand to my engine internals. Too many places for the tiny abrasive particles to embed themselves into, it seems to me.
Carl

Deve,

The only comment I have is I'm not sure I would sandblast anything that goes inside the motor. I'd be afraid some of the embeded sand would not get cleaned off and would end up floating around in the oil at a later date. Am I wrong in my thinking?

Mike B

Fair enough. And if you don't remove the sand, it's a really bad thing. I don't know of a better way to get rid of 50 years of crud. But, nothing is left to chance. And that's probably where I need to explain further. I blow everything off with 110 pounds of pressure, then use 400 grit paper on the flat surfaces to remove any pits created by the blasting, another round of air, and then, douse everything in WD-40 cleaning off any residue with paper towels before putting it all together.

Would that work for you? It's what I did on not just this engine, but every engine I have done over the years. I do this same procedure on ALL internal engine parts. But you wont find one grain of sand anywhere when its done. It's either that, or have all of this residual crud on everything that you cant get to with a wire brush. Please argue the point if you still disagree with the idea. BUT.. you have to come up with an alternative that will ensure there is no residue anywhere that is just as dangerous.

Since we're on the topic of cleanliness, what are your plans for the oil pan? I have removed the spot welds to get all possible grit from underneath the baffle attachment points and on others I have cleaned as best I could and then painted with Glyptol.

Deve,

I would think any of the following would be better...Hot tank, Steam Clean, Engine Degreaser and Pressure Wash, Hand wash in a Parts Cleaner, etc.

I let all of my small stuff soak in a pale of Economy Lacquer Thinner. It will soften the hard thick gunk if left soaking overnight making it easy to brush away in the morning.

Mike B

I pressure wash before I start removing the engine.
I throw all my nuts and bolts into a bucket with white vinegar for a couple of days. Wash them in water and baking soda and a steel brush to remove grease. Wash them in parts washing fluid and brush again if needed.

Pressure was the engine block, heads, pan, etc. and then bring it all down to a shop for baking and washing.

Most of my cleanup isn't needed, but I like to bring my stuff in cleaned up.

Yes! Great information. I think all of the above are great ways to do it. I am not set up with any of the above equipment or chemicals other than my recirculating Kerosene parts washer. You can't say it's finished with just that because it's recirculating.

I haven't addressed the engine shops part of the article yet, but the Head and Engine get a thorough washing at the engine shop. The Oil Pan I will sandblast and I will get everything out from under that baffle, then dump about a pint of gas in the bottom and work the sand out of it. Again and Again if needed. I am also not beyond removing the baffle, but I haven't gotten that far yet. Almost there.

I am in total agreement that sand is not to be a part of the complete engine and I go to extremes to make sure that doesn't happen. It's just that I am a clean freak. I will adjust the article to mention all of the above and the dangers of using sand. Thanks so much! It really helps to get more input! Please keep it coming. I do not profess to be a professional engine rebuilder and count on you guys to keep me on track.

Other than blasting the pan, wash it out in your parts washewr and then find a plastic container to put it in with vinegar. It will take the rust off in a couple of days.
You can take it out and scrub it and put it back in if needed. It will take it to bare metal. No thoughts of sand in the engine then.

After giving it much thought, I decided to add a new section near the beginning of the document entitled Parts Cleaning Procedures. I will use what you guys have provided me, so if you have other thoughts on that issue, now is the time! I will be playing down the concept of sand blasting and will mention it only because thats how I do it. Most people do not need the option because they won't fully understand the consequences of not getting ALL the sand out. Does that sound about right?

I have updated it to add the cleaning part. If you want to say it a different way, or feel your idea isn't being given enough thought, please say something. Thanks!

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Deve, isn't one option if you're going to have a machine shop, check cylinders for taper and possibly bore the cylinders (and tell us what size pistons are needed), grind the crank, mill the heads and block...that they will just cook it and boil the block and head for you to clean all the crud out? Know (and fully appreciate) you're trying to do as much of it ourselves as possible to keep the cost down, but some of those things are going to be beyond the capacity of most folks. Not sure how you were going to integrate machine shop work in the rebuild?

I've done this several times Allen. I still may not be the best at it, but pre-planning everything is an essential part of the experience! The piston rods, oil pump parts, etc are not addressed by the machine shop. They CAN be, but it costs more. Anyone with a wire brush is qualified. There is much more to this article.

But yes, I am figuring in their cleaning. Thats really an essential part of this. In fact, I have asked the machine shop to clean it again because they didnt do it good enough the first time. Once my thing is done, they do the final cleaning. It needs to look really good. Otherwise, they are not happy. Its like taking a well done steak back to the cook because its blood red inside.

We arent there yet. But when we are, I will explain why the cooling system is prone to failure because they rarely properly clean the water jacket the first time. The last shop I went to, puts a plug where the spicket should be. Then, when you put the spicket in there, no water comes out? Why? Because they didnt CLEAN THE DANG ENGINE like I expected them to. My fault for not explaining that I wanted the engine to be CLEAN during the CLEANING procedure. LOL! What a concept.

Its all about personal experiences and the differences in the professionalism of the shop. And, to be fair, they didnt see it was ME that was coming. But in writing a how-to article, you try to cover all the bases of what-ifs. It will all be part of the finished product. It will be much more valuable if people like you keep asking questions. Thanks!

There are several levels of what the engine shop will do. You can pay them to put together a short block, even a long block. This how-to is about neither. We just want them to make sure the block is serviceable, hone or bore so that the cylinders are all the same size, go through the head for serviceability, install the valves, etc, and then we take it from there. A Ring compressor, a torque wrench, some knowledge, and we CAN do this. I usually let them order the new pistons, rings, cam, bearings, etc etc. Thats how I plan on the integration. Its about a grand cheaper to do the assembly yourself. Plastigage is your friend. Dont take my word for it, its in the shop manual!

We are going to clean first, THEN let them clean it. I do not trust their cleaning will be to my satisfaction, so I do it to my standards, then they do their thing, and the whole effort is better off for it. I have gotten several blocks back with actual dirt still on the outside of the block, so I preclude that scenario. Only takes a day or two and worth the time!

I live in an area (Central Kansas) that is steeped on farming and not so steeped on making things look pretty. My mission is to get things working every bit as good as the self taught engineer and then take it a step further. It will be fun! I have done this before. It WILL make sense when we get there.

Did you really push kerosene through a pressure washer? Kerosene takes to long to clean a part to me... Mineral Spirits all the way.

Second, although you show a shop manual, you never refer to it.. even AFTER you sandblast the rockers?!?!?!?! Did you mic the rocker shaft and rocker bushing? The 58+ shop manual I have puts the ID of the rocker arm at .7925-.7935 and a length of .9354... you still in spec? 'Wiggles a bit' is probably not the fit you are looking for.

I applaud your effort, and your motor most likely will start/run after your done... but as a tutorial... I would not recommend your process to anyone. IMHO you're simple sandblasting anything (the interior?!?!?!) and your tolerances are 'it wiggles'.

English is a tough language to master, I have trouble with it everyday. No, the Kerosene is in my parts washer.

A common misconception about sandblasting is that it takes anything at all off the metal. You're setup might, but mine doesn't. Not one infinitesimal bit. I do not sandblast the shaft at all, and as I said, I sandpaper the inside of the rockers just to make sure there is no residue inside. That oil track inside needs to be clear. Way more damage is done during normal operation. There is zero wiggle. You can't change peoples experiences with sandblasting. All you can do is just know the method is solid if you do it right. The sand I use is the consistency of flour or powdered sugar. At 40psi it takes a long time to clean stuff, but nothing does a better job.

You can think you know if that makes you happy. I am not talking to you in my how-to article. Its not about using mic's either. Most home garage mechanics don't own one. This is for the guy with minimal tools and the desire to learn something new. I take all the parts to the machine shop for checking that stuff, and I HAVEN'T GOTTEN THAT FAR YET!! But from past experiences, I am well within tolerance. The rockers are rarely the problem on these engines, its the shaft being badly worn that causes problems.

Please lets not go down the sandblasting is bad road. I have corrected the How-To so the new guy doesnt get himself in trouble, and we can now move on. I wouldnt use anything else. Between the Kerosene, sandblasting, sanding with light paper, lacquer thinner, and compressed air, I am very pleased with my results. There is no way anything having to do with sandblasting will change any tolerances.

I am known for doing things a bit differently. Has to do with my lack of formal training and just figuring out what works and what doesnt. I am not pigeon-holed by following accepted procedures. When I learned about dropping the air pressure in the blast cabinet, then about the better air nozzle that about triples the air velocity for blowing the whole thing off when done, my problems were solved. 40 psi blasting the sand, a few hundred removing it. Please, just let the sandblasting thing go. How do you convince people that this isnt just about engine overhaul, its about putting that engine back to its factory pristine glory.

This is what happens when you put something out there that isn't complete, trying to get opinions. Its still worth it. You guys for the most part have really helped me with this. The tolerances will all be checked by the machine shop. If there is anything even close to out of tolerance, it gets replaced. You know how long winded I am, yet you keep on tasking me! HE TASKS ME!

Thanx, as always. for your efforts, Deve. This project you've embarked on is timely for me and I will be using it as I pull BillyBob's engine to freshen it up a bit before I strap the blower I've ordered from James Larrowe on it.

Thanks Larry, YOU have been at least as much help to me as I have been to you.

I added the Oil Pan text today after spending the day working on the Pan. The next few days will be Valve Cover, Lifter Side Cover, and then addressing all three as far as finish.

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I appreciate Deve's work too although I may do some things differently, but that doesn't matter. It's the learning that's important.
Aside to Larry. Please, please post your work when you assemble the engine and blower combo.

It will be in a series of BillyBob log entries, Drew. The first since 2011. I have the blower in my possession and more parts are on the way. Stay tuned and back to the regularly scheduled programming.

Its your motor, feel free to a pair of pliers and not the correct wrench if you like.

But I would suggest that you end the idea that you are 'helping out the little guy' when you do not follow accepted standards and practices with respect to something as expensive and potentially dangerous as an automobile engine.

No, you should not sandblast bearing surfaces (aka rocker arms). Its only partially about removing material, but MOSTLY about the finish and the fact that you obliterated a machined, low friction surface for a rough pitted surface that will wear out the rocker shaft much quicker (ZDDP will not save you).

It just plain bad advice and not acceptable unless you are re-machining the surface.

If you do not have a set of mic's then a $20 HF caliper will suffice. It will get you close enough to determine go/go-no on a part.

Just like you.. I'm trying to help the little guy.

What kind of disappointing is that all the 'nice people' are posting encouragement while ignoring damage and just plain bad advice given.

"The King has no clothes" comes to mind.

Like all forums, advice given freely is just chatter for us to sort out on our own. No need to get down on anybody.

As long as Deve is learning what common sense has taught everyone else, and our forum fertilizer flinger is taking him to task, the rest of us can deal with the stomach cramps a good series of belly laughs will bring on. Keep it up, guys!
Jerry

Yeah, exactly. So far the criticism has been about par. I listen carefully to what you guys have to say, then ask some non-forum participating friends, if serious enough, call my engine shop, then weight it all, and off we go! Nothing new today. Had to go purchase an engine stand. I repurposed my other two.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

Spent the day working on this engine restoration. Lots of tin work. Even the timing cover, people take a screwdriver and pry out the seal, then pound the new seal in. Thats good and all, but I would appreciate it if they wouldnt miss! Lots of dings around the seal area. The valve cover was really bad. All part of the fun!

Then I did some fun stuff like removing the timing gear cover, oil pump, etc. Please if you dont like the way I say something in the article, correct me.

One thing I cant remember is.. When you purchase a new cam and cam gear, do you also get the retainer? I do not remember ever removing the cam gear to get to the retainer. Old age I guess. The Balancer will need a speedi sleeve, but I will describe how that is done as well later.

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Deve, don't you stand the chance of ruining the 2-part balancer by removing it with that puller? There are 2 threaded bolt holes in the center of the balancer specifically designed for removing it. Maybe you might want to study the Chevrolet Truck Shop Manual before you add information to your blog. I envision an uninformed newbie stumbling into your blog, before you have a chance to edit it, and proceeding to cause damage to his pride and joy.
Carl

Yeah, I have that one too. The 2 pc was easier. Comes right off. The HF unit is much harder to use. Cheap construction, doesnt make me feel safe, like it will slip off or something? Do you really think a person can warp that thing with a 2 part? I have been reading up on what they said 50 years ago in the shop manual, but not sure if I put that thing in my 20 ton press if I could warp it. But, I dont want to cause problems for anyone else. Something to think about?

Nevermind the slipping off comment, it cant using that one, but I broke that one years ago trying to take the balancer off. The hub just snapped. What do you expect for $12.99. The 2 pc one is much nicer. Opinions please. Been taking off these balancers for years with this one. LOL

How could the Harbor Freight style puller that I posted slip off?

Here are other brands/choices. I'd stay away from the "claw/talon" style puller. It is more likely to cause problems for someone else, if the balancer is reluctant to be moved.

What year Shop Manual are you using?

The 1959 Truck one? I even gave the tip for making it come off real easy. Of course if you used the one you suggest, and tapped it off, the same result would occur. Interesting, but I use what I have. There arent alot of tools in the shop manual that any of us possess. So, over the years, I use what works. Do you honestly think that HB could warp before the threads stripped out of my puller?

"Of course if you used the one you suggest, and tapped it off, the same result would occur."

What is "tapped it off"?

What same result?

Here is your grabber set up.

Here is the puller set uo.

Read the writeup Tim. Its all there. Tapping the balancer while putting pressure on the puller, makes it come right off. Its crazy how smooth that works. Been doing it for years that way. But I am sure I could warp the crank by doing that, so I should stop doing that too?

I dont want to do the wrong thing here, so let me look over the shop manual again, I know what it says chapter and verse, but if using that cheaper puller works better, I can change the text, no worries.

This is a collaboration, so I WILL collaborate. I would love to hear what others think about causing warping?

I am getting emails from all over the world showing interest in this Article, so its very important that WE get this right. I think the text I just changed in the Article will help explain that we are home garage mechanics and we do not have access to most of the tools in the Shop Manual, so we use what we have.

In the case of a $13 HB Puller, I should have just gone out and purchased another one and taken pics of that, but this illustrates the point made above so that people don't feel that their shop or their skillset is inadequate for the job. Later I will be listing a "Tools Needed" section that will give them the proper tools listing. Guys, it's just not finished yet!

I will be MUCH more particular when we re-assemble the engine, but during the teardown, I am trying to get the job done. No parts were harmed in the making of this Article.

Thanks Carl for saying something. Its the right thing to do and makes it so that we don't have erroneous information out there! Erroneous no, HUMAN yes.

Yep, that balancer is toast. Even if it doesn't fail right away, it's been damaged internally. That's why they put the threaded holes in the center- - - -you just need a puller adequate to do the job. Do you seriously intend to publish that advice? Shame on you!
Jerry