The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Primer or filler first?

Installed an inner door bottom and lower skin on the left door of my son's 66 GMC. Took the door down to bare metal and now do I prime and then use filler or use filler on the bare metal and then prime?

PPG Omni AU epoxy primer and "Plus 1" fiberglass reinforced waterproof filler.

I epoxy primered first, then build primer, then filler, the build primer.

I used PPG DPLF expoxy primer, K66 build primer, and DCC acrylic urethane topcoat. The reason I did build primer after the expoxy primer is twofold. First, the epoxy primer must be coated within 7 days of application in order to work properly (according to the tech sheets). Secondly, when sanding down my filler, I only sanded into the build primer, leaving the epoxy primer intact to seal the metal. (Use different color epoxy & build primers to help this)

http://www.autobodystore.com/filler_&_epoxy.htm


Check out that one.
I have heard it done both ways.
I have never done it at all so what do I know other than I have read about it a bunch.

Check out hotrodders.com they have several discussions about this too.

in2deep, that is an interesting test...I have always just applied it to the steel so I guess I am good so far... (??)

I looked at the autobodystore test and was considering filler onto the bare metal but then talked to a bodyman today and he said filler over primer.

Sounds like there is good arguments for either way. Maybe I'll flip a coin?

fill always on metal. Ive seen way to many cars with cracks that I had to fix because someone primers then put filler on top of that.

The only filler I have ever used over primer and ever been given the ok by the paint reps is finishing putty or premium filler with a high talc content ie yellow as can be.

Why do you guys think that on American Hotrod and other shows they first are shooting Epoxy Primer then filler?
I learned in Paint school (a lot of years back) to use filler over bare metal with at least 60 grit sanding scratches. I thought that maybe the technology has changed...?

I have always put the "Bondo" over bare metal. I don't trust putting it over the primer. If you use 40 grit sanding disks on the bare metal then apply the filler, it will still be stuck to that fender long after we are all dead and gone. Then, (like DustyG says) I use the body putty over the primer to fill the small imperfections.

On TV:
Chip Foose-Overhauling,
Biker Build off,
Orange County Choppers,
West Coast Choppers,
Pimp My Ride,

They all fill then primer but what do those guys know?

Hammy,
The ONLY one of those you mentioned that is even partially credible is Chip Foose.

Honestly would you let the guys from pimp my ride touch your truck. I hope the answer is no unless you want it to come back with six TVs and a holly hobby oven installed in the bed.

hahahahaha....so true...holly hobby oven..hahahahahahaha....sorry, dont mind me :rolleyes:

Well I didn't flip a coin but I think I've decided to use the waterproof filler on the bare metal, get things close, then epoxy prime, then use a "lightweight filler" for the imperfections.

I haven't done a lot of body work in the past so all this is a bit of a learning experience for me, thanks for all your input.

I don't see any need to use epoxy primer over filler. You might as well use a good filler primer. Epoxy primer is for metal prep...
At least that is what I understand. Thats why these guys on TV put it down first on bare metal.

You have to be a chemist these days when it comes to painting!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dave64:
Well I didn't flip a coin but I think I've decided to use the waterproof filler on the bare metal, get things close, then epoxy prime, then use a "lightweight filler" for the imperfections.

There seem to be about as many ways of doing this as there are Bolters...but the method you've described is the way I've always done it. It's how I was taught back in 1963 when I took a summer school course in auto body following my sophomore year in high school.

The teacher was a retired auto paint and body man who had been doing body work since the 20s. He taught us to take the surface down to the metal before using any Bondo-type of substance, then smooth it and shape it if needed. Then spray primer and use spot or glazing putty (which at that time was just real thick primer) to fill in any nicks, scratches or minor imperfections.

If a second coat of Bondo was needed after priming, he made us sand it all down again to metal and the first Bondo layer.

I know things have changed a lot since then. Two-stage paints and epoxy primer-sealer hadn't been invented yet. I've only used the epoxy stuff a couple of times, myself. I'm not really familiar with the newest technology in this area. So I always go back to the old ways: bare metal, Bondo, prime, then glazing putty, followed by block sanding and the color coat.

I'm in the middle of a couple of projects where I'm doing this now: my Ugly Truck from the cowl back (I just finished the top and back of the cab) and my 63 Nova, cuz the previous owner's paint and primer decided to peel off the top. So that one's going down to bare metal..and strangely enough, from the cowl back also...since the front end is fiberglass. They're both gonna end up in flat finishes for the moment. The truck is gonna remain satin black and the Nova will get a coat of neutral (beige, sorta) primer-sealer...and possibly a coat of white acrylic enamel, since I don't wanna put a ton of money into its paint.

Holy crap is that an understatement! Try putting a PT-19 up against a F-22 or a victrola up against a surround sound CD system, a Model T against a Cad CST-V, blood letting against modern medicine.

Listen, glazing putty should NEVER be used first off, lacquer primer, forget it.

If you properly apply plastic filler over bare metal, it works well. If you will notice that is the manufacturers recommendation. However, they can't say "use epoxy primer" because the plastic filler manufacture doesn't make epoxy primer (none that I know of that is). So, they can't be telling you to use epoxy when there are so many different epoxys with a varying degree of quality.

They say bare metal, and bare metal works. However, a good quality epoxy primer over the bare metal before filler just makes more sense technology wise. Most quaily epoxy manufacturers have recommendations for this procedure.

Brian

Well, like I said, things have changed a lot. I've been using glazing putty for 40 years...and while it's certainly not for any serious repairs...well...I'll prolly continue to use it for minor surface imperfections.

I know that I'll prolly have to drag myself into the 20th century and use more epoxy primer/sealer. But, like many other "newfangled things" (computerized cars, rap music, Pimp My Ride shows, etc., etc.), I try to hold out til the last possible moment.

I must be gettin old. (I still play my bass along with music from Led Zeppelin, Ten Years After and Cream...and I have no desire to join the modern genre of music and bass playing techniques. If it was good enough for Jack Bruce and Leo Lyons, it's good enough for me.)

LOL, Ray, let's make a distinction between "styles" and technology. "Pimp my ride" and other nonsense should not be compared to real entertainment. What you may watch it on, now that is technology. An old Hendrix concert on a nice flat screen with surround sound is just fine with me.

Heck, the guys in those bands you are talking about paved the way for the bands of today, most don't even come close in quality thought.

Your "glazing putty", toss it in the garbage and get yourself some polyester putty. It is about as easy to use but far superior.


“Basics of bondo types”

"Regular" polyester body filler, and polyester "putty" is basically the same thing. They are both, you guessed it "Polyester" based. Polyester is what fiberglass is made of. The fillers have talc and some other components that give it "body", that is the basic difference between fiberglass resin and polyester body fillers.
The Putties have a finer ground talc than "regular" filler. They cost MUCH more, but are well worth it for skim coats and minor repairs. Being they are polyester they use a hardener and CURE like fiberglass.
The old "spot putties" DO NOT use a hardener and are simply lacquer primer . They are JUNK and should not be used.

Some examples of these products are as follows.

“Reinforced” polyester fillers:
These can be aluminum filled body filler for metal surfaces. I is very hard to sand and not good for the finish work (needs a skim coat of a “reg” filler or polyester putty) but will fill much more per coat reg filler and has more corrosion resistance.
A Fiberglass reinforced filler is similar.

Examples are:
Evercoat’s “Metal-2-Metal”, “Everglass”, “Kitty Hair”, “Tiger Hair”
3M’s 05815 Short stand filler, 05813 Long strand filler.


"Regular" polyester body fillers:
Evercoats RAGE or "Lite weight" and others.
3M's Lightweight body filler #058001

Polyester putties:
Evercoat's "Polyester glazing putty", "Easy sand" and others.
3M's "Flowable finishing putty"#05824 or "Piranha"#05821 .

"Spot putty" (junk, not recommended) Usually found in a toothpaste tube looking container.
Evercoat's "Ever-glaze" #403
3M's "Acryl-green" red or blue #05960,05964,05966
Dupont’s 2286S, PPG’s DFL17

I personally recommend Evercoat products.

Martin, yer right about the difference between style and technology. I agree with ya. And I respect your experience, since I didn't do what you do for a living...you are much, much closer to the bleeding edge than I am.

You've convinced me to try the polyester putty. I'll pick some up the next time I'm at the auto paint dealer.

The one thing I've liked about Acryl-Red is that it doesn't require mixing. But I can give the Evercoat stuff a shot.

As an aside, you've given a great list of products and the categories they fall into. This should help a whole lotta folks out.

Btw, I've checked out your 48 and it's a real gem. It's amazing that a guy can hold onto a project vehicle like that. (I thought I had a page with your truck bookmarked, but I can't seem to find it.)

I think the longest I've ever owned a car or truck is 11 years: my 85 Monte Carlo. Back on track, you know your stuff, Martin...so thanks for sharing it with us.