The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop HEI conversion

do I still have to use a ballast resistor if Im changing from a pertronix setup in my old distributor to HEI distributor? it doesnt say anything about it in the instructions about it

Nope, connect the HEI directly to 12v power, no ballast resistor needed.

ok thanks

I wish I had a better handle on this. I will put myself forward as the village idiot and just ask the question which will seal the deal for anyone who was on the fence about Deve.

So you are going from HEI to HEI and you are wondering if you need a ballast resistor? Pertronix and the old distributor is that Chingadera Dads was talking about that I am thinking about upgrading to, to make my system HEI??? Someone try to help me connect the dots. I already know its ME.

Pertronix is more or less an electronic switch that replaces the points. Both it and the HEI work by what is called the Hall effect. Why the Pertronix needs a ballast resistor, I'm not sure, I guess something to do with the design of the circuit. I'm not sure but can the Pertronix be used with a stock 12 volt Delco coil, or does it have to use their own coil? HEI usually has the coil built into the distributor. Though early Chevy 6 cylinders used one with a separate coil.....
So actually I've probably told you nothing you didn't already know... LOL Me,I wouldn't over analyze it Deve....

John

I have a Pertronics system and DO NOT USE a ballast resister. I am using the Pertronix Flame Thrower coil.

Pertronix ignition does not use a ballast resistor. It needs a good voltage supply, 6 volt or 12 depends on which unit was purchased.

A 12 volt Pertronix conversion still uses a ballast resistor.
The only exemption would be if you are using a coil with a built in ballast. With out a ballast/dropping resistor the coil will over heat.
It is true that the Pertronix its self runs on direct 12 volts, but not the coil.

HEI not only needs full 12 volts, but it also needs a heavy-gauge wire from the ignition switch to the distributor. Use at least a 12 gauge wire, and 10 is better. The way the HEI system develops the 50KV+ firing voltage capability is by flowing a pretty heavy primary current through the ignition module. The heavy wire is essential to having sufficient current flow for the system to work properly. A clean, properly-gapped spark plug will fire at about 10-12 KV, so a HEI has nearly 5 times the voltage capability for good ignition. On a dyno demonstration I have cut the ground electrode completely off a few spark plugs without noticeably affecting the performance when using a HEI distributor.
Jerry

So if I upgrade to a Pertronix whatchamacallit HEI module in my stock distributor with a 12v resistor coil, I am good right? I guess I still don't know the difference between the chingadera, whatchamacallit, and the actual HEI distributor that Pertronix sells. Which one is better for OUR application? Thanks again!

Use the Pertronix as a fishing sinker and get a HEI!
Jerry

The module or the entire distributor? OMG!

Deve, you will never get anyone to agree on this topic.
I like the Pertronix because it leaves the distributor looking close to stock. The exception is there are two wires coming out of the distributor instead of one.

Tech Tip on to make a late model HEI dist work in the 216 & other early 6 cylinders....joe

No matter whether it is Pertronix, HEI or stock points, none are a 100% reliable. I don't know about the Pertronix, but points can sometimes be fiddled with and you can get it home if something happens. HEI your pretty much calling a hauler to get you home (I've had the module quit one time on an HEI in the car, just like shutting the switch off). But the HEI is pretty reliable most of the time and proven.

John

I've had one hei coil burn up on install, swapped it out with the same kind and it's been running for 16years.

The Painless wiring harness uses a 14 ga wire for power to the HEI and it works just fine. I've read in a lot of places that you don't need more than 14. Going to 12 or 10 is safer, but not necessary.

" Going to 12 or 10 is safer, but not necessary"

Why did GM waste all that money putting heavy wire (10 gauge) on millions of OEM-equipped HEI units? This is yet another bunch of self-appointed experts declaring themselves smarter than the engineers who spent years of R&D developing a system that works. When my research engineer brother does his computer modeling projects for the automobile manufacturers he bills his time out at $1,000.00 a day. He can predict the total lifespan of a part without ever physically building it. Do hotrodders have access to that sort of sophisticated computer program?
Jerry

I have tested the load drawn by a HEI years ago and it was surprisingly little.
I asked Tom Langdon, who was a GM engineer, why GM used such a large wire for HEI's. He said it was only done for radio suppression.
I generally do not use over 14 gauge wire for HEI's

Deve,

Pertronix's sell HEI replacement modules and points replacement modules, I didn't see whole distributors but didn't really look that close. The HEI replacement module goes into a GM HEI distributor, it will not fit a points type distributor. The points replacement module is simply a electronic switch that replaces the mechanical points. I have no information on the HEI replacement, but have seen a lot folks reporting trouble with the points replacement unit. Leaving the ignition on seems to kill them pretty quick.

Just don't confuse HEI and Pertronix's, they are not the same thing.

HEI distributors are totally different animals, they were designed by GM from the get go with electronics and built in coils. You need to use full 12 volts with at least 40 amps for best results. Also use 10 to 12 gauge wire from key switch right to distributor and from battery right to the key switch. Don't hunt under dash for ignition circuits to tap into, run a dedicated wire right off battery or alternator. Will it run on small wire, sure for a while. Will it provide full output on small wire and fewer amps, doubtful, but is done all the time. Yes they will run, but as Jerry put it, "GM didn't spend all that money on wire for nothing".

Go with a true GM HEI setup and you will not be stranded or disappointed.

Joe

Pertronix sells both entire Distributors:
http://pertronix.com/prod/ig/flame/dist/cast/default.aspx

and modules:
http://pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx

So Jerry's post has me confused. Do you hate Pertronix, or, more likely you were referring to the modules. But since they are both made by the same people, what's the difference in the internals that a person wouldn't want the module?

Before you answer, look at the specs of the distributor. They look very much the same. (I think they are both just breakerless points solutions but I am no expert). I would love to purchase a full GM HEI setup for my 261. Where do I get one?

My gripe with Pertronix is the fact that their products are completely proprietary. If any part of the system fails, the only repair option is to purchase that part, or possibly the entire unit from the manufacturer. General Motors began building HEI (High Energy Ignition) systems in the mid-1970's, and produced untold millions of them for almost 20 years with few variations of the basic system until elecrtonic spark control replaced vacuum and centrifugal advance systems in the late 1980's. The HEI units made for 194, 230, 250 and 292 6 cylinder engines can be adapted to stovebolt engines with a very simple modification to the distributor housing to assure that the distributor drive gear and the oil pump drive function properly. Repair parts are available at any auto parts store, local or online, and they're reasonably priced.

In my admittedly biased opinion, Pertronix ignition systems, either complete distributors or conversion units, are overpriced and of questionable reliability when compared to an original-equipment GM unit. It would be difficult to give me one if I had to use it in a daily driver vehicle. Your mileage may vary!
Jerry

Yeah I'd go for a re-machined original GM HEI. John

I recently replaced the Mallory dual point distributor and MSD Blaster coil on my 235 with a large cap HEI from a 1975+ Chevy 250.
I got it on ebay and it is new, polished, with a performance module, and 62,000 volt coil in cap. The collar on the shaft has been machined off so it drops down into a stovebolt properly and it comes with a new billet clamp / hold down. It also has adjustable vacuum advance.
I chose the large cap version because the wider spacing between the terminals inside the cap reduce crossfire and because it can utilize a larger coil. I opened the gap on my plugs to .045.
What a difference it made! The truck starts instantly now. Performance has increased throughout the RPM range and mileage has increased as well.
One thing to note however, is that if you have a Wayne or other finned aluminum pushrod cover you will have to grind some fins down to be able to rotate the distributor to set the timing.
Now, it certainly doesn't look stock at all but the benefits far outweigh that to me. If I'm going to a show I can easily remove the HEI and drop the Mallory back in.

and once again here's the Tech Tip on to make a late model HEI dist work in the 216 & other early 6 cylinders....joe

Great write up on how to modify one of these. I always thought the housing had to be machined in a lathe for fitting.
John

Was this ebay sale a one off sale or was it a company who mods and makes them? A link would be cool.

The PC Patrol zaps Ebay links as soon as they appear. There are six stovebolt HEI distributors on Ebay right now. Search "235 Chevy HEI distributor".
Jerry

Geez, I started a whole topic of discussion here, didnt I?? I bought my new HEI on ebay from swapmeetparts.com ....I had a regular stock distributor and I bought one of those 90.00 pertronix setups and installed it and it worked fine in my original 216 motor, but now Im just finishing up my 235 build and Im putting all new everything including a new late model HEI in it, so Im real excited to see and hear this motor run

Its funny how hard it is to get information out of some people. Here is the problem.. and I know its me, but maybe others have the same brain damage I do. So lets ask...

1) Langdon has an HEI distributor that looks more original. What are the drawbacks of Toms distributor?

2) Since our 261 engines top out at about 3000 +/- rpm, what is the REAL differences between a Pertronix breakerless setup and the best HEI setup out there for this particular application?

3) I don't like purchasing something so important to the project on Ebay. They can go away without notice. Is there a part number from a reputable company where I can order the actual GM HEI with wires and everything I need, or what is the answer for such a low RPM stovebolt engine that worked pretty decently with breaker points. I just want to remove the mechanical aspect of points for greater reliability and less maintenance. How hard can it be? LOL! PM me if you have an idea you don't want to say.

As anyone paying attention knows, Deve here can make anything out of nothing. Sometimes I don't like to be bothered with mundane tasks when I have other things to do. I just want to call up a company and order something. I like Ebay for stuff I am doing and do not expect that person to ever place their wares on Ebay again. Ebay means ZERO reliability as far as longevity. That's why there are Ebay police. We can do better here on the Stovebolt and rely on real vendors selling parts now AND in the future. If companies are on Ebay, decent reliable ones also have their own website and ability to do business off ebay. /offthedamsoapbox

Where do I purchase a GM dist and HEI wires/whateverelseIneed? You are smart enough to just spit out the answer, I know you are. Just relax, and come right out with it!

Deve, talking to you is pointless! Are you that clueless, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?
Jerry

1) Don't know there is any problem with Langdon's
electronic distributor. Advantage it looks like the original from the outside I believe. Disadvantage, might not be able to run down to the local auto parts place for a piece to fix if something happens it quits working, maybe you can.

2)Pertronix is an aftermarket deal that has a module that installs inside the stock distributor and for full potential of it needs their ignition coil. Rpm really isn't a factor with a 3000 rpm 6 cylinder. Solid state ignition really has the advantage over points when the rpms get above the 4-5000 rpm range. Above this single point ignition voltage starts to drop off, electronic maintains a more constant voltage from the coil. Was one reason for dual point distributors and magnetos back in the day in race engines.
3. Not really sure who sells a complete HEI with wires ect...You don't want to use your original solid core wires with HEI.

I'd go to the local salvage yard and snatch one off a Chevy inline six and make the few simple modifications in the link above. If you would feel better, toss the cap, module and coil pack and replace with all new from the local auto parts place. Pick up a set of new wires for your truck too. New wires are probably resistance wire anyway.

John

It's a great opportunity for some of our experts in engines to provide a service if none exists. I know I would purchase one from another bolter. I would think there is some commerce opportunities here if there really isn't someone who does this already. For example, I purchase everything Jerry sells or rents. If I thought he was an idiot, I wouldn't bother. But I feel I KNOW him and his expertise because he's a regular contributor here who makes sense for the most part. I think we have the expertise collectively to offer something that's better than something we get off Ebay hoping the guy who took our paypal information is still there next week.

The reason I bring up RPM is that most of the web sites that sell solutions to points talk a lot about improvements in the 4k-6k range. That's why I think a lot of us purchase Pertronix modules. They fit that niche. If someone can come up with something more reliable, that would be great! So far all I am seeing here is talk, but no website, or some kind of credential that we can point to when we are dissatisfied. All of our local salvage yards took the money and ran when the steel prices went up.

I'm happy with the pertronix in my Suburban.

Hey,Hoozat! I bought my HEI/plug wires from "E-Bay/Swapmeetparts",too! Very pleased with the results,plus this guy's been selling for quite some time,with 100% Customer Satisfaction,behind his name! He called Me, acouple of weeks AFTER the transaction,and asked if his dizzy worked,since I have a 261,and his was listed, as a 235. He was willing to send my money back,if I wasn't satisfied! Customer Service above and beyond! That's the only way I do business on "E-bay". If someone doesn't have 100%,DON'T DEAL!! 97-99% isn't cutting it. You or I could end up being the dis-satisfied 1,to 3%.

the unit that really works well is the stock system. Been working well for about 70 years now. In 30 years, the ONLY time my truck has never made it home was after I installed pertronix. I'm not sure what I, or anyone else was trying to accomplish. Points aren't really much trouble at all. At least I haven't had any problems with them over the nearly 40 years I have been using them. Something I can't say about the pertronix. I do know that the truck didn't run any better, and I never had problems with "high speed miss" to begin with. And as far as "messing with points" I can honestly say it has never really been a problem, ever, in my entire life. Something I can't say about pertronix. I have a brand new pertronix unit in my garage, that they sent me after I sent the cooked one in. Which by the way is completely different than the one I returned. This one doesn't use a magnetic ring, it just picks up on the pointy parts of the cam inside the distributor. I should just go ahead and sell it, I just can't bring myself to install it.

Oh let me take a shot at this!

1) I just got Toms HEI system and still need to install it. It looks almost original in terms if its overall size. About the same diameter but a tad bit taller. It does not have the coil located on the distributor head so you need to find a home to mount it. It also requires a bracket to mount the coil that YOU need to get. I think the only possible drawback to toms setup is the fact that it has a custom machined body to allow it to fit in the 235 block. So if for some reason you need to replace the body and or internal shaft you would need to do the machining again. However if you need to replace the coil,cap, wires, or other internal bit you can get them at any shop over the counter. Parts are from a mid 80's 2.8L system.

2) I currently have the Pertronix system. I had worn out points and wanted something simpler to maintain because I was in a lazy mood when reinstalling my old ignition system. I did not put the pertronix in looking for a performance gain. I have read posts about people saying that the pertronix system has fried on them and they have no choice to go back to the stock setup due to the fact you can't walk into any shop and get the pertronix parts. The pertronix system still needs a resistor. You still can do a external one but it has to be the correct vale, or you can buy the Pertronix coil that has one built in (the coil is yet another part that a general automotive shop will not carry in stock all the time) My current pertronix coil gets so hot you can't go near it and that scares me that one day it can go.

The actual performance gain if any between HEI and pertronix Ii can't comment on with proof in numbers and recorded data, but I have heard lots of good reviews from people going into a HEI system that the engine can start better, and run smoother due to the fact you can regap a bit larger and get a better burn (not sure if it's the placebo effect or the truth). Supposedly you are feeding more voltage with HEI then the pertronix. Most of the people who claim these gains are the ones who have done additional mods to the inline and not running stock. Im going to HEI so if something blows I can go get parts for it asap at any shop and any performance gains will be a bonus.

3) I have seen lots of distributors being sold on ebay that say drop in but like you I don't like the fact you can't get any real info on the units nor can you call someone to troubleshoot an issue. I have a feeling they are not made from scratch directly to fit but are just modified units to fit your application. You can find links just like the one posted on one of the other pages in this topic on how to mod a larger HEI unit to fit. You can buy a new unit from summit racing for a mid 80.s 2.8l and do the mods yourself. Or follow that tech tip link and buy the (new) same distributor from summit and mod that. I have dealt with tom now for a bit and overall he is a great guy. Granted I got frustrated with the carb issue I had with his units but that has been sorted out and is another story. He seems to know his [censored].

try swapmeetparts.com thats where I got my GM hei for my 235 motor, it came with all the wires and instructions how to install it, with no modifications needed.... 159.99

This is the one you want!

All that cash should buy you some horsepower.

http://www.swapmeetparts.com/servlet/the-902/Early-CHEVY-Inline-6/Detail

Hoozat, where is the link to the actual distributor? The one wolffcub mentions at that same site is a bit pricey for me. $1500?? Great info here. The reason I keep posting is, I am trying to make sense out of all this, and its still as clear as mud.

The one on greasygringo that lists the parts to make your own, seems like a homemade pertronix type module.

Tom Langdon's also seems to be a homemade pertronix module/pertronix distributor type thing. Am I wrong?

The pertronix module OR their flamethrower dist uses the same technology which so far all of the above is not real HEI, but more of a electronic points replacement solution.

Then there is the ONLY real HEI I have heard so far which is the GM HEI distributor mentioned, but, its just baffling to me why people mention something you cant buy! So, if there are vendors who sell this one, please let us all know. Once we have a handle on this, its an option for the countless people wanting HEI. I would also hope this real GM solution isn't one of their first attempts because they stranded countless thousands in the early 80s with a half baked solution. I want the one with the bugs worked out.