The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Slooow 6V Starter fixed !!!

Thanks everyone who responded to my previous starter post. My starting problems are over.
As it turns out, the starter I got from Chevy Duty was junk. It had several problems. So instead of sending it back and taking a chance on more junk I had it rebuilt instead.
In addition, I had them put in high torque field coils and now my truck starts better than my S10!
It really spins fast now. I'm running a 6 volt battery that has 650 CCA. I was going to go for the Optima but with the upgraded starter there's no need . I'll post some pictures of my truck in the next few days.

The optima is still a good bet, Lotsa reserve.

I have two Optima 6v batteries and one 4 year old Advance Auto standard 6v battery that is still working fine (with 00 cables and a good starter). No need to get rid of a good battery that does the job; but, when the AA battery gives out, an Optima will take its place.

Hey Joe,
I'd like to hear more about the "high torque field coils" that you had installed in your starter and who did the work.
Denny G

Hi Denny,
I took my starter to Trapp Generator and auto electric in Pottstown, PA to be rebuilt and they suggested the high torque field coils. I guess they have more windings than the stock ones which gives the starter more torque. They said they do alot of antique and classic starters and generators for cars and motorcycles. They knew exactly what I had when I walked in and turned it around the next day.
The starter spins the engine fast so it starts great. I have a friend with a '48 Plymouth and it spins faster than his engine which has the stock field coils.
If you want their info, let me know.

pisses a guy off that some aftermarket suppliers peddle junk! i find i'm better off sourcing those types of parts locally as customer service is lacking at times. with "rebuilt" parts their is no legal guidline manufactures go by. the excuse's i have run into were "well it tested ok! the one person for sure getting rich in the aftermarket parts business is fed-x and ups,they get paid regardless.

I'll have to look into that, there's a rebuilder in a town bout 20 miles north of me. Been by there a hundred times and keep saying I'm gonna stop and check it out, now I've got a reason.
Denny G

Looking at a Delco starter, it doesn't' appear there is room for any more field windings. I think the recipe for more torque is larger gauge wire and more turns. The shop would rewind the existing field coils to facilitate higher current readings which equates to more oomph for the starter. I think this is how it works.

Stuart

Not sure but I dropped one off for a '50 216 this morning and explained that if it had two coil that he may be able to put four in it. Said it would only cost about 50 dollars and he would check out the armature, turn it and put new brushes in for that price.
Now, like most auto repair shops now days, he will probably find all kinds of other things wrong that will drive the cost up to a couple hundred bucks before I can get it out of hock.
He did try to talk me into putting an 8v battery in, said that a lot of the farmers do that for their equipment, and all I would have to do is adjust the regulator.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I already dropped off the starter so I don't have it here to physically look at. It's hard to tell from the pics in the manual but it looks like there are only two coils in the case. It also looks like there are two empty cores or pole shoes at 90° to them. Why Delco would put the two empty shoes in the case is beyond me, these guys were always trying to save a penny everywhere they could.
The truck starts fine as it is, it catches the first or second time round but that slow grind just doesn't feel real comfortable when you’re used to the 12v systems. Also it’s 85° out side right now and when things cool off round here I’d like to feel a little more umph when I stand on the button. This will be nice if this works and another thing I like is that it will be indistinguishable from a stock starter. Now I’m wondering how it would crank with an 8v bat behind it.
Thanks for bringin’ up the subject Joe.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny, I would suggest you try the rebuilt starter at 6 volts. I have tried 8 volts in the past and was not satisfied with the results. Bulbs don't last as long etc.

Denny,
The guys at Trapp generator where I got my starter modified advised against the 8volt battery. They seem to feel that is is a band aid.
I have been seeing a few guys using them here on the forum so I guess they work. If you go that way, let us know how it works out.

Having my starter rebuilt with the high torque coils cost me $95.00. They put in new bearings, brushes, cut the commutator and checked everything out and fixed a couple of contacts as well as installing the new field coils.

As far as I'm concerned, it was money well spent. Now with the "super" starter, clean grounds, a new battery and heavy gauge wires, my starting problems are a thing of the past.

Funny that I didn’t even consider that but ya got a good point Cleon. I’d be running the lights or any thing else that was a continuous draw at 33% higher voltage than they were meant to operate at. Scrap that idea!!
That sounds about right to me Joe, what he quoted me seemed pretty low, but I asked him a couple of times and that was it, fifty bucks, we'll see.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

don't know why you guys don't just go to 12V and be done with it - that 6v starter will spin that engine to life in microseconds

Bill

If ya don't know by now Bill, it probably won't do any good to explain it! My buds are always tryin to sell me on a 235 or better yet a 350 or a T5 or on and on. Kind of lookin for sumpin called originality, at least so as it don't show.
Denny G

what's more "original" about using updated techniques to boost the starter? many of these trucks were upgraded to 12v by the late 50's, doubt many back then used technical tricks on the hardware ... and what good's original anyway if ya hafta "lie" about it ["... so as it don't show"]? besides, isn't yer battery under the floor?

Bill

You win!
Denny G

AD,

Since when does "many" equate to "most"?

Bill said that many had been converted to twelve volts, and many were. Actually many, but not a high percentage, got Olds, Buick and Cad engines before the SBC came out. He did not say that most were converted, as most were not.

Many were changed to 12v; many weren't.

My last three 6v trucks (purchased over the past 10 years) were not converted. This does not prove anything about many or most 6v trucks, except that the three owners kept them in running condition (all three trucks benefited from a change to correct 6v battery cables, however).

It's nice to hear people's opinions (preferably, when they are asked for) but why not just congratulate ResoJoe for a successful diagnosis and repair, instead of trying for a "religious conversion"?

Makes sense, TC. Congratulations on a succesful resolution to the starting problem, Joe, and thank you for sharing the information on field coils.

AD,

Sorry if I came across as strident. My 33 sedan is unmodified, but I wouldn't mind an overdrive to keep the RPMs down, not for going faster.

agreed tc, restoration does get a little religious, doesn't it? and yes, good on Joe for figuring out the problem, tho' I suspect the 'high torque' part prolly wasn't necessary

if I wanted any of those things, AD, I would buy a new truck, and I never have and never will, I've always driven pre-72 trucks, not because I like "restoring", but because I like the trucks, to drive, I resurrect them ... and the 6v trucks I've had have stayed 6v because I knew how to take care of them [and they CAN work as well as 12v, if properly maintained], tho' I did put a 6v alternator on my 46 because I didn't see the point of special ordering a new generator and regulator when those got to ailing beyond repair [worked great too] ... it really is over-the-top to equate converting to 12v with power disk brakes

OTOH in nearly 50 years of driving, I've seen more than a few 6v trucks and cars [I did say "many"] that were "modernized" to 12v not long after GM realized it was better, after all it doesn't take much more than a new generator and regulator to "convert", and the 6v starter then works better than new, and a plumber or farmer or carpenter, or trucker wasn't concerned about "original", he was concerned with getting as much dependable use as possible out of his investment, just like my Dad, who ran old Chevys as taxicabs, and all were made to be 12V if they were old enuff to be 6v originally [maybe why I have seen 'many'] ... you may not have seen many that were converted back in the day because you weren't paying attention back then, and now there aren't a large percentage of real working trucks left .... in fact most of the remaining 6v trucks may still be alive because someone just quit using the finiky [poorly maintained] ol 6v thing and left it behind the barn for you to "restore"!!

there's nothing wrong with 6v, especially for a "restoration" that doesn't get used much, but on a vehicle that gets used hard daily, like my resurrected 58 [yes, originally 12v, and now with an alternator], not having to be concerned with keeping everything 110% so the electrics are trouble free is preferable

if your primary concern here is show quality originality, that's your choice, but many, maybe even most folks here want a running driving truck, for relaxation, for pleasure, for ego, for work, for the heck of it, and having one that starts anytime, every time is usually preferable .... remember there's over 15,000 members here, and "some of us" who insist on strict originality might only be a few dozen

Bill

Valid points Bill but I think this thread really got away from the "original" topic. I just wanted to share some info I found out with the group. Original, not original doesn't really matter. Everyone here probably has a different reason for liking old trucks. I've had mine about 8 years and just like driving it around for what it is...a cool classic truck with good points and some things that are a pain. But that goes along with it. Now it is more fun because I know it will start again when I make a stop or go to a show.
Sure I drive a 12 volt S10 to work because I have to get there on time but when I drive my 51 "time machine" I don't worry about that. I carry a tool bag for when things don't quite go right. I like the foot start and the 6 volt. It just starts much better now though I suspect it has more to do that I went through the entire starting system such that it is and repaired all of it and the rebuilt starter is icing on the cake.
I did send in some pictures and a story for the gallery so hopefully it will be up soon.
thanks guys,
ResoJoe

I just got back from the starter rebuilders with the 1107055 8G7 starter that I dropped off nine days ago to have additional coils installed. According to him this is not possible with this starter because of the space that the starter switch occupies. He claims that the internal connection prevents adding a coil at the pole piece over which the switch mounts. He says that the solution has always been to use a Cadillac starter case, which has four coils and is a little longer allowing room to mount and hook up the foot switch.
So, just what did your rebuilder do to get around this Joe???
Here is a picture of the stock candidate starter from a 1950, 3604, 216:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2625075880098611668UwOVLX
His suggestion was again, to use an 8v battery, and when I brought up the matter of what affect it had on 6v bulbs, etc., he made the case that the generator was already running at 7v to 7.7v if the regulator was set properly. I believe he is absolutely correct about this now that I think about it.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

If you installed a 8 volt battery, wouldn't you have to kick your regulator up to 9.5 volts cut off just to charge the battery. This would make short life of 6 volt lamps that see only 7.5 under full charge.

Stuart

Not sure Stu, but I don't think so, if you were pumpin’ close to 8v out I think it would work ok. I'll have to stop by and pose that question to them, they have been around for a long time so they must know a little some thing about the subject. From what the guy was telling me, it's done all the time and I've heard of a lot of guys here that are running 8v bats.
If worst comes to worst I suppose one could break down and slip a high wattage dropping resister under the dash to get rid of a couple of volts, they're cheap.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Eight volts from the generator would not charge an eight volt battery. If any battery only reads its nominal voltage, it is at least 50% discharged, so charging at that rate would accomplish nothing. The only people who resort to eight volt batteries are those who have been unable to diagnose a starting problem,IMO. There would have to be a voltage drop problem if the six volt lamps have a normal lifespan on an eight volt system.

Can't comment on this one anymore Baldy, till I talk to the experts at the rebuilders.
Denny G

Baldy,

I'll comment on it and I 'ain't even an x-spurt'. In order for the 8 volt battery to maintain a charge, the charging system must be adjusted to put out 9.5 volts...that's west coast volts!

Stuart

So Stuart, I don't know for sure, that's why I'm not commenting. But I do still have a bunch of questions, like just exactlly how much is that 6v generator capable of putting out before you say it's reached it's limit and is over loaded?
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny Graham,

Again, I'm not an auto-electrician, but I have read about folks on this very forum who have full fielded their generators into a staggering 20 volts. Your generator has the capacity to charge the 8 volt battery easily. I know you have dinked with your voltage regulator just recently, so adjusting it for the increased charge rate should be a piece of cake.

If anyone can pull this off properly, it would be the Sandwich Man!

Stuart

Not sure just how to take that swing Stu, but I did just reset my voltage regulator and you may be right about the output. One thing that supprised me was that at speed before I was reading in the mid 8v range on my DVM and by backing off the voltage points only 1/4 turn it came down to 7.4v at speed. Pretty touchy old piece of equipment.
I kind of hoped some of the guys that are running the 8v batteries would chime in, I know there were quite a few that said they were using them.
Gotta go, UPS just brought my HogRing pliers so now I can get started on my upholstery.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Gents,

I have a 6 volt starter that is working in a 12 volt environment on my 1942 truck. My problem is that the strater spins too soon, and is chewing up the gear on the flywheel. If I don't hold the starter rod just right - it makes an awful racket and fails to drive the engine.

What can I do to delay this - grind a bit from the manual starter arm that pushes the drive gear - or is there a better way?

I appreciate your thoughts on this.


Stewart

Stewart,

I'm not sure on this, but I sort of thought the little starter switch had elongated holes where it's mounted on top of the starter.

My idea would be to slide the switch back a tad so the starter drive was almost completely engaged before the starter was asked to spin.

Be sure to inspect all the linkage for sloppy joints, and give the starter drive a exam too.

Stuart

Stuart,

The battery contact switch does not have much adjustment, but I will ask my starter/generator rebuld guy if he has one with more, or slots instead of holes.

The joints are all sloppy, but a spring in the system takes most of it out. The starter drive gear must be quite a bit harder than the ring gear on the flywheel as it does not have a mark on it.

Would the switch to 12 volts make the starter spin faster?


Stewart

Stewart,

Yes, the swap to 12 volts will make the 6 volt starter spin faster...but it shouldn't spin sooner. See what your starter man can discover and let us know. Good luck.

Stuart

Stuart,

I pulled the starter and took it in today to the fellow who did such a fine job with my 12volt generator - London Generator, London, Ontario.

The fellow said that it looked like the starter lever was worn ( sloppy ) and that the fingers inside wre not pushing the starter drive gear far enough forward. I suppose that, coupled with spinning faster on 12volts, would be just about where I am.

He frowned on grinding material from the arm to provide more stoke for the control rod - to give positive engagement before starter drive happened; but he said that he would look for another lever if we needed to try that route also.

He does not see 50 year old parts every day, but he did think that he remembered a contact switch with slots instead of holes to mount to the case. It was with the old timer parts at the store room, and he would let me know early next week.

I shall report back then.

Thanks,


Stewart

Howdy all,
Here comes a comment from one who is currently running on an 8 volt battery, bought before I read all the better advice here. The generator did not charge the battery before I tweaked the regulator. After doing that, it has been performing fine for 2 years. The voltage regulator is set at about 9.3 volts. In those 2 years I have had to change one headlight, which was over 25 years old. Also, here in Sweden the law says I must drive with the headlights always on, so they are getting plenty of use. I think the concerns about bulbs not tolerating the higher voltage are exagerated.
That said, my next battery will be 6 volt.
Karl

Thanks for the first hand report Karl, I've been waiting for someone that was using one to step up to the plate. That supports what the starter rebuilder says. Is there any particular reason you won't replace the 8v with another? Did you notice much difference in the cranking speed when you put the 8v battery in?
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL USA