The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot '60-'66 Trucks original engine for my 1963 chevy k10

Hey all,
I am hoping to find out definitively if my trucks 261 engine is the engine that it came with. I know it could be but would like to be able to prove it. Anybody know if that is possible? Besides the build sheet which I cannot find.
Thanks,
Mike

I'd first check the original engine number. Some folks here can decipher it, or there maybe a note how to do it in the tech tips. That way you could match up the truck year to engine year, where it was made......

are you sure its a 261 63 k models came with either a 235 or 292,283

well a 261 does look the same as a 235 and the real way to tell that is by eng nbr. 261 was more of a GMC application. and they were also used in Canadian Pontiacs from 57(that I know of to 62)
235 engs were used in 63 "k" application
ron
someone could have always installed it in there to replace a 235 over the years. I remember when we put a 261 in my brother,s 32 chev sedan back in the ealy 60s which I got from him a year later. it had come out of a 57 Pontiac

261s were available on USA K10 (four wheel drive) trucks into the 1963 model year (maybe until they ran out of 261s).

this documentation doesn't mention the 261 nor does the 63 manual doesn't either, but it doesn't list the 235 either
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=9169aad55cfc6d79&id=9169AAD55CFC6D79!354#cid=9169AAD55CFC6D79&id=9169AAD55CFC6D79!359&v=3

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=9169aad55cfc6d79&id=9169AAD55CFC6D79!354
you will have to copy and paste the links

ron

My research tells me that in 1962 and 1963 the 261 was an option but in 63 just until they ran out of stock.
This could also be(my opinion) why the 4x4 kept the 235 as standard in 1963. 1963 was a year of transition to the 230 engine, so it makes sense they wanted to use the blocks up that they had.

My casting#(3769717) tells me it is a 1959-1962 261 block. Which makes sense if they only used leftover blocks.

The # above my starter; (con4 G112)translates I believe;
con4= conveyer 4 (not sure what this means)
G=July
11=day
2= year (1962)


From what I can find on my serial # F0712LB.
F= Flint, where the block was made
07= month, July
1= day of month
2= year, 1962
LB=??????????????????(I do not know what this is)Help!




All this probably strongly suggest that this 261 came with this truck but I am hoping to KNOW! it does. Anything I am missing that will tell me that?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike

the casting date is when the block was cast, the stamped number is when the engine was assembled completely, they can be separated by quite a bit of time .... the LB will be the exact application, if anyone has that info

Bill

As per Bill, it can't be stamped until it's cast, so your date cypher is wrong. The Serno is F= Flint MI plant, stamped July 12, one day after casting. The LB is listed in 1957 as truck series 31-32-36-3800-4000.

The 230 is shown as STD, 292 and 283 are shown as optional in K series. If it was cast in mid year 1962 maybe they did use left over. I think I'm going to have to doubt that. What does the VIN tell you about what year your truck really is? Should start 3K...

You've read the Serial number wrong, the code breaks down as F= Flint, 07= Month (July), 12= Day, LB= application CLS60.

We are just starting on a '63 K10 so I've been doing some research.

"LB" is correct suffix for a 261 in a K truck, so yours is an early, "First Series Design" 1963 and your engine is most likely original to your vehicle.

Most likely, it seems that the 292 types came available when they switched to production of the 1963 "Second Series Design".

Can you please show me the website you got:

"LB" is correct suffix for a 261 in a K truck, so yours is an early, "First Series Design" 1963 and your engine is most likely original to your vehicle.

Most likely, it seems that the 292 types came available when they switched to production of the 1963 "Second Series Design".

I have used the GM heritage website and documents supplied by some Master Stovebolters and Inliners posts/websites. I need to be sure about posting info, so if there is conflicting info, would like to read up on it. Also can you please state where you got that there are 1963 first and second series Chevy trucks. I have never heard that but would like to know the details. Is that a K series thing? Thanks

So it looks like it was cast on July 11 1962 and put together and stamped with the serial on the next day, July 12 1962 or I suppose possibly 1963. I wonder if the application necessarily means it was put in a CLS60 or just prepared for it to be used at some point. In this case maybe used for a different application?
I have a copy of 'Standard catalog of American light-duty trucks' 3rd edition, published in 2001.
The book list the 261 as an option for the C10 in 1962 and the C&K10 in 1963.
These are the only years I am aware that it was an option.
My vin does start with 3k and it matches the frame number stamped behind the steering box on the drivers side. This tells me the cab goes with the frame it is on.
Thanks for the help with the numbers guys!

It would seem to me that they used up any leftover 261 engines that were originally spec'd for the CLS60 in the early '63 4x4s to use up leftover stock.

There is also a use for "left over stock" as service replacement engines under warranty. I am curious, would they have been able to just slap one in a 1963 truck? Would the engine mounts be the same, and tranny mounts and fit to radiator and wiring harness in a truck built for a 230, 292 or 283 on a truck rolling down the line? I know a 261 swaps with a 235. 63K10: You are lucky to have a 261, they are very, very sought after. The urban legend says they were used in 1963, the actual GM literature says not available. The urban legend everyone is relying on comes from "Wikipedia", as follows: "261 was available from 1954 to 1962. In 1963, the 261 truck engine was available in 4x4 Chevrolet trucks (until the engine sold out)." It has no source information in the 261 section. Wikipedia is a blogger contribution site, can be written and edited by almost anyone and is quoted and used as if it was true.

I would be interested in knowing more also.
My catalog list the 292 as an option for the C series trucks in 1963 but not the K series.

I wonder if anyone knows if 60-66 trucks came with build sheets and where they under the seat?

All I can say is in the GMheritage website under 1963 truck, The actual scanned copy of the GM Chevrolet Truck spec states what I said in my post re: engine availability for K10. I would trust that more than your catalog book thing. I will concede that the engine you have could be factory, so as to be a good flexible Stovebolt member. Only 3 minor facts bring me there: 1.Being considerate to other very senior members, 2.Wikipedia and 3. the fact that your truck was built at about the end of 1962 production, right when the first 1963 production would have started to begin sales in Sept/Oct. that's when left overs would have been used, maybe. Jim Carter and LongBox both say 261LB is for a BIG truck. Two good sources.

The GM Technical Specification Manual indeed does not mention the 261. Folklore, and owners, and Rockauto.com think they were available.

If the casting dates look reasonably close, I'd not doubt the possibility of the 261 being used into 1963.

My '63 K 10, # 129***, from St Louis Plant is a Second Series and has the 292. Trucks 118545 and later from St Louis are "Second Series", 118544 and lower are "Firsts". Similar for all of the other plants, as shown in the parts book noted below.

Because of differences in assembly, six cyl engine perch design and location, for example, and I think cab mounts too? and probably others, these changes to the assembly line would have been planned well ahead of time, not when they happened to run out of engines . Anyway,

The Suffix info is on p.46 of MSA-1 Chevy Inline 6 Engines Casting Number and Code Guide.

1963 Series Info is on P.14 of GM Parts Division '46-'72 Chassis and Body Parts Catalog for Chevy 1/2 thru 1 ton trucks.

My 1963 truck Heritage package was the least informational one of the several I have purchased

Folklore: "In 1963, The former 235.5 and 261 cubic inch sixes remained the standard engines for K10 and K20 pickups only." Now TC, I only slightly go with "left over" not "remained the standard". rockauto "thinks"? Good one TC. We are on the same page. Rock on Garth.

RickO:
People write those books without a lot of knowledge and research. They try to cover many years to get more purchasers to buy the books. They are published in 1979 and 2008. Not contemporary to the era. To use them to prove anything is iffy. Using Rockauto is just as reliable. Many vehicles have parts changes and TSB's referencing serial/VIN numbers, but they are not called first and second series. If GM had such a grand plan ahead of time I wonder why they would print a spec saying no 261 available? First and second series are typically used for major sheet metal changes. 1955.1, 1955.2 . Maybe it's just semantics. Thanks for citing your source. Well done.

Padresag: correctamundo, that's because there were no 261's or 235's allegedly available in 1963.

Yes, That's true of a lot of the books and info out there. Plenty of poorly researched, hearsay based misinformation...

But, and this is just for general interest, the '46-'72 Chassis and Body Parts Catalog 1/2 ton thru 1 ton Trucks Series 10-20-30 that I referenced is The GM Issued parts book that every Chevy Dealer in the country had in it's parts department. I pretty much take what it contains as gospel. Every restorer or enthusiast should have one, it makes for interesting reading.

The MSA-1 books have always been correct in my experience and I recommend them to anyone too. They're especially handy when id'ing used parts or whatever is bolted in your vehicle, probably more so for cars, but the suffixes and casting numbers for all of my K's, for example, have been right on the money.

Getting the details right is what makes this hobby fun for me. Good Luck with everyone's projects!

bartamos, What are you referencing for your "GM Chevrolet Truck spec" when talking about a no 261 option. I would be interested in seeing that.
You make some good points. Folklore very possibly has a part in it.
From my view, though understandably a bit bias seeing I own a truck in question, I do not see it as a stretch that chevy would offer an engine(261) that they where fazing out as an option. I also do not see it as a stretch that they would not include it in much of there literature. Seems their focus in 1963 was the many changes they made to the C series, leaving the k series hardly touched.

But that gets me back to where I started, a Proven connection between my truck and its engine. Does not look like I will get it, yet.

Thanks all, I am enjoying everyones input!

63K10 - see here, click "Chevrolet Trucks (All Models Not Listed Below) Show" and pick your year for a PDF of GM factory spec info

Bill

I looked through that 3 times but do not see any K series trucks?

Rick-O, What is the MSA-1?

it's the year you want, all series for each year are in one package, the K stuff will be scattered among the C series stuff - for 1963

Bill

Yes, that is the document I used, (thanks Bill) deep in the document under "Engine and Clutch" Page 1, you will see C,K, etc. Look close at the columns, they don't say K10 all the time , just K-C10, that means K10 and C10. Three engines as I said 230, 292, 283 V8. There were only two 6 cyl in 1963 and a 4 banger. But some real cool V8's. (409, ooourah)
Rick, good points about your Docs, don't have them. You can say that your engine is stock because this post is proving it can't be disproved even though it's not listed as available.
Chevy Inline 6 Engines Casting Number and Code Guide, author: Mark S. Allen, available on Amazon.com. How does the parts catalog confirm that a 1963 K10 had a 261? Can you scan the page and post it in photobucket or other for posterity?

I see what you mean. That means that the k series had a 230 as standard? I did not realize that it was even a question that the K10 keep the 235? Confusing?
I am not sure I can agree about your comment "they were books written by editors and normal people". The people that put together the Chevy spec info were probably editors and normal people. They might have been working with incomplete and poorly documented info from years back. Fine details about each year was possibly beyond the scope of the Vehicle info kits. We could assume that because GM was not making sales off these kits that maybe they didn't care to put the effort into recording all the intricacies of marketing the trucks.
I could be wrong.
Mike

Mike, the 'info kits' aren't speculation or marketing, they're information from the manuals of the years collated by the historical dept, pretty much the final say on factory documentation .... that said, it's also the case that there were variations from the general set, depending on the stock on hand and the particular situation at any particular plant, it wasn't unheard of that some excess from a previous year was used because it was excess to service spares needs and what was supposed to be used was short at the time .... I have seen reference to the 261 being used in 63 K trucks until stock ran out

Bill

Bill, Well said. What we need is a time machine, then we could clear things up for good.

Mike

some/much of the 261 info on Wiki was added by our tclederman

Bill

Bill, how would I determine if I put any of that information in there? I do not recall doing that (but my memory was never good). There is information in that entry that I know nothing about, however.

check the article history tab at top, about 150-200 back - and see your contributions

Bill

Yes, I just figured that out.

I think I'll try to edit that sentence out and leave that 1963 matter for someone else to deal with?

if there's no primary documentation to back it up nobody should have an objection to removing it

Bill

Done.

Here is a prelude to that non-documented information.

And, here's is the post that probably resulted in the non-documented information being added (by me, gulp).

As Yoda would say; Want to open a can of worms, I did not.

So if 261 was a factory engine in anything smaller than a C60 would it not have been a well know fact by the old timers?

www.msa-1.com ; 800-600-MSA1

I think I saw the '46-'72 book on CD somewhere on this site?

I looks pretty clear to me that 235/261 were The six cylinder choices for early 1963 4x4's ONLY and 230/292 were made the sixes later, like in the rest of the 1963 trucks. Most likely at series change.

Given the low 4x4 production numbers in those days, I'm guessing GM didn't deem it worth it to change only the unique 4x4 frame's engine perches, so waited until the second series with the rest of it's changes were phased in later in the year.

I'll betcha that 63k10 Mike's "Early" '63 has exactly the same frame parts as a '62 six cylinder 4x4 had, and that my "Late" '63 has the same ones as a '64 six cyl. does.

Bill,
I been thinking about your quote and looking over my 63 chevy shop manual. I am not convinced that the manual info should be the last say. These manuals were put together for general repair, not as all inclusive documentation. The 63 shop manual was intended for use through 66 with supplements each year. The book is large as it is, I could see why they might not include all info about 4x4 trucks. For the few who needed it, they could access the previous years manuals.
Also, the '4-wheel drive, section 14' of my 63 manual list the k series engine as a Thriftmaster witch is a 235? This seems to contradict the 'general info 0-5' section that list it as a 230.

I love a good mystery!

If you are referring to the 261 ever being an option in smaller that C60 series trucks, this page from the 1962 GM Chevrolet Truck Specification Manuals shows "yes" the 261 was supposedly available as an option in smaller than 60 series trucks.

For comparison with a few other years:
1963 engine applications (box at bottom of page - no 261 listed)
1961 6-cylinder truck engine applications (box at top of page - 261 only available as standard engine in C60)