The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay electrical conundrum...get ready, it's a doozy

I've had '50 3100 for over 10 years, and, in that time, have never been in such a quandary.

I converted to 12 volt several years ago, put in Old Air a/c, and pertronix pointless ignition.

A few weeks ago, the A/C compressor wouldn't come on, and I got that worked out, then recharged the system. Then when I was running the truck with the a/c compressor on, engine started sputtering, then died. I got it started, but just barely. The carb was super flooded; took off, blew out passages, to no avail. Even put in another carb that works (still nothing). Haven't been able to get it started since.

I've replaced PErtronix with regular points, switched out coil, checked compression and spark (i'm getting spark), put in new condenser, and put in new high wires from coil and to spark plugs about a year ago...practically brand new. I've found TDC, replaced rotor in number 1 spark plug position, gapped plugs and points to spec. I'm getting gas to carb, spark to points...have NO idea what it'd could be. I suspect there's a short some where, but have checked everywhere. Wow, I'm lost. Any help??

Have you tried disconnecting everything except for the starter and running a fresh hot wire from battery to coil?

If it won't run like that you most likely have ignition/timing/plug wire order issues.
If it will run then something in the rest of the system is the issue, add functions back to the system one at a time to figure out where the problem is.

Grigg

why "suspect" a short? get out the meter and start checking - you either have a fuel problem or an ignition problem, determine which .... take off the fuel line at the carb and stick it in a can - crank the engine and see if it's getting fuel ..... check power to the coil, distributor and plugs, especially when cranking, might be an ignition resistor bad or the coil itself .... recheck everything you've done to it since the problem first occurred, problems can easily be caused by repair work

Bill

again, I've checked everything you mentioned...getting fuel, taken meter to everything, checked to power (in initial post)

Grigg, you suggest a wire directly to the +side of coil? I'm not sure how that would be any different since I'm currently getting 12v there as is.

if it's getting fuel to the carb, and spark to the plugs [not just to the coil+] ..... what's left?

Bill

Exactly!! That's why I posted!!

If it's getting fuel and spark to the plug the only thing left is timing. If the spark isn't there at the right time she ain't gonna run. Checked your timing, firing order, and distributor rotation direction?

Start over and don't ASSUME anything. If it's timed close, getting good spark and you put a little gas down the carb and it does not fire, then you are still dreaming and have not woken up yet. Even if you are off by one plug on the distributor it will backfire thru the carb. Double check distributor, where no. 1 really is and all the plug wire routing. Check the choke operation. When trying to start, do not touch the throttle after sitting over nite, just put a little gas down the carb, that way you take the carb out of the loop. If it fires for a few strokes. Then try again with some throtle pumps (2 or 3 only to begin with). With all that flooding it does sound like a gas thing. Don't forget TDC is 180 degrees from no start. Take out the no. 1 plug and slightly pack a kleenex in there, when it blows out hard, thats the TDC stroke, then place timing mark on zero (probably have to go around twice to get back to TDC/zero) and check the distributor.

Pull the distributor and check the gear. Might be buggered.

The carb was "super flooded" where there any signs of gas in the crank case?. Perhaps the oil has been washed off the cylinders walls. A couple of squirts of oil in each cylinder wouldn't hurt.

Larry

Is the distributor groundedto the engine? I know it is with pertronix, but i cant remember if it is with traditional points. I was looking at wiring diagram from truck shop manual, and it only shows wire coming from points to negative side of coil. Doesnt indicate separate wire going from outsideof distributor and grounding to engine.

Is there a ground wire from distributor to engine? I know there is with Pertronix, but when I installed traditional points, was that ground wire supposed to be taken off? I didn't think so, but when I check user manual wiring diagram, there's no indication that that wire is there, only wire from points to neg. side of coil And in the section on distribur (cleaning, install, etc.), there's no mention of the wire.

The distributor is grounded to the engine by contact. The wire on the Pertronix is not grounding the housing, it is grounding the Pertronix works.

So I don't need a separate wire grounding outside of distributor to engine? You definitely do with Pertronix

You say you are getting spark to the points? Is the spark getting to the plugs?

Pull the coil wire out of the distributor cap and hold it close to the block and have someone crank the engine to see if you are getting spark out the coil wire. If so, then see if there is spark at the plugs.

The rotor could be burnt through allowing the spark to go to the distributor shaft instead of going out each plug wire.

I'm getting spark to points and plugs

It's sounds weird that a company would design a distributor that does not just use the case/housing which touches the engine, as ground. But I don't know about Pertronix stuff. Anyway if you have mistakenly grounded the distributor, it won't start and will possibly flood. OK I just I watched a youtube on the Pertronix igniter into a Delco distributor. The Petronix is grounded by the plate inside and the two wires are red to ignition pos and black to neg coil terminal. There is NO mention of a separate ground wire to engine!!!!! If you did that, you may have destroyed the Pertronix or maybe if your lucky just prevented the truck from starting.

What did you do with the compressor? Was it an electrical clutch issue. Have you disconnected the compressor or any other parts you changed related to the AC. I would start there.

What's confusing is that(going back to look at Pertronix install instructions) it says that if you disconnected distributor ground wire, reattach it securely. Which makes it sound as though it's there with traditional points as well Ive had Pertronix in for several years, and I can't remember if there's separate ground wire that attaches to outside of distributor and grounds at engine

the only time a ground wire to a points distributor body might be useful is if the shaft is so worn the distributor wobbles around when running - I had intermittent problems on a GMC 228 that were due to that .... but if you have strong spark to the plugs and fuel into/out of the carb, than not starting would seem to be a timing issue

Bill

Everybody is reading and posting at the same time on this one, did you read my last post? ALso some units will not work with ballast resistor. Check with Pertronix, they have changed their mind on this issue.

Hi, starsfan, did you just fill up the tank just before the problem started. About 2 years ago I got a bad tank of gas and found out that is way more than E10.( Maybe E30)( The fuel was sold as up to 10% ethanol) The truck stalled about 1 block from the gas station. I checked the carb and fuel pump and they were clean. I pumped out about 2 gallons of fuel and then it would run poorly. I used about 1/3 of a tank and filled up at a different brand gas station and then the truck ran a lot better. And a second note, today at work another mechanic was winterizing a stern drive and it would not start. It turned out that it needed new spark plugs. The old plugs looked very good.

I've seen several situations where "good-looking" spark plugs simply wouldn't start the engine after a flooding situation. There's something about getting fuel-soaked that can permanently short out a plug, for whatever reason. Try swapping the plugs and see if the problem disappears. I've also lined a set of plugs up on the welding bench, and used an acetyline torch to heat the tips red hot and burn away any deposits as an emergency method of getting a flooded engine started.
Jerry

Hey, folks, thanks for all of the suggestions. I'll try to answer the questions: I cleaned spark plugs thoroughly, they're sparkling (remember, I'm getting spark to each). Not to say I won't get/try new ones.

Regarding compressor, the air conditioning system is disconnected. In fact, I've disconnected everything (I'm re-wiring the truck in addition to all of this)...the only wiring is this: wire from alternator to ammmeter, power to switch, wire from switch to + side of coil. And, of course, all of the high tension distributor wires connected, in addition to wire from points to negative side of coil.

Regarding ballast resistor, I'm using one of their coils that INCLUDE a ballast resistor.

As well, there's the ground wire from distributor case to engine. This is the wire in question...because I've had Pertronix so long (and their insturctions have that wire), I can't remember if it's required with points set-up. And with that wire there, the Pertronix has worked perfectly for years.

I could go on and on about making sure that wire is still grounding the case but you have spark at the plugs. It's just a backup to the case touching ground I guess, anyway do the gas down the carb test in my post and report results. Don't know what the compressor has to do with this but disconnect it electrically until you figure out starting problem. Did not see any info on the web for Petronix with a wire for ground. If it won't fire after gas down carb test, take that wire off once. And as stated DOUBLE CHECK TDC, etc. If an engine has timed spark and gas, it starts or trys to start.

a ground wire to the points distributor body is not necessary or original, but won't affect any thing, obviously it isn't "shorting" anything if you have fat spark to the plugs

you're using the Petronix coil with an original distributor, or you've gone back to the Petronix distributor again?
have you tried the points dist with an original style coil?

you've checked the timing again?
are you sure the dist isn't in backwards?
is the advance mechanism on it good, both vacuum and mechanical?

Bill

Important!!!! Please indicate "can't get it started".... does it fire at all, does it run a little, does it cough thru carb, does it not fire even once???????????????? Does it turn over fast or slow? Remember, gas down carb test is after sitting over nite with NO throttle movement by you at first.

does not fire at all, not even once. turns over fast. pertronix is still off, using traditional points. using pertronix high power coil, but have also tried coil that requires ballast resistor, which I hooked to. checked timing ad nauseum.

I need a mechanic to come to the house in Dallas, get it going. Unfortunately, I don't have time to spend on it; have two kids, job that keeps me on road quite a bit, coach teams. I'm going to get it painted, finish up wiring...all of this work/time is in prep for selling it...going to use some of money to get my son car when he turns 16 in a few months.

Well maybe we will all learn something form the mechanic. Please let us know. I guess your son does not want it?

Is it possible your timing gears are suspect? It seems like you checked everything else.

Have no idea how to check for timing gear issues.

My son doesn't want it...he likes it, but, after having to on many occasions pull over and diagnose a problem (even put in new points and condenser at one point on side of road with him), he would like something a little more dependable. At 16 it's all about appearances...think he's afraid he'll have his head stuck in engine compartment at the time a girl he likes drives by.

I got a 52 1 ton when I was 17, it was great fun and my everyday driver. I learned a lot from and with that truck, looking back wouldn't do anything different and glad I had the chance.

Grigg

i'm with you grigg. i would have killed to have my truck when i was 16

Both my kids- - - -son and daughter- - - -were glad to have some wheels, and they weren't the least bit hesitant about doing whatever maintenance was necessary to keep 'em running. A kid with an attitude like that would find himself walking! My daughter did have a little problem keeping a boyfriend- - - -she could fix cars better than all of them, and outshoot most of 'em. She loved to bring a new guy out to the shooting range where I was sighting in a rifle I'd just built. She would sit down at the shooting bench and start blowing up water-filled 2-liter Coke bottles at 200 yards. Then she would give the guy a sly smile and say "Daddy shoots a LOT better than I do!"

The guys usually turned a "whiter shade of pale"!
Jerry

Sounds like he has put in some time fixing it or helping to fix it. Dependable and air bags is what I wanted for my grandson at 16. He would have taken an older truck but they are not as safe for a new driver in a big town. It does not matter what we would have wanted.