The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop **FIXED** Need help - Chevy 216 (New Orleans, LA)

My 1953 3100 1/2T truck was running better and idling like a champ. The only issue was that is was not restarting when the key was turned off. Had to wait like 10-20 mins to restart. Starter seemed a little weak the restart phase.

So....I decided to pull the original starter, the brushes were worn, armature was OK according to my growler, but didn't want to fool with replace the starting gear as it has some chipped edges.

I purchased a really nice remanufactured starter along with replacement rotor, condensor, plug wires and ignition coil.
Points looked good and gap was OK for used. Bought a really heavy-gauge fabric covered 6V battery cable from Optima 6V to the starter. Sounds like an ideal electrical tune-up.

Marked the distributor cap, took pics and then drew a schematic of the spark plug wires and their location relative to the cap before disassembly.

Installed everything carefully and it runs 100% worse than before. Check the wiring, the plug firing order, everything was as I had recorded. It runs but sounds REALLY rough, and stops on its own with a loud, almost metallic grinding sound. Doesn't idle at all, just sounds bad.

Sounds out of time now (did I rotate the distributor perhaps just slightly when putting it all back together) Will it start or run out of time? IDEAS?

I never removed the distributor from the block. Now, I don't know what to do. Starting is harder than ever and just doesn't sound right anymore.

NEED A MECHANIC.
Will pay good money for some hands-on assistance. Want to learn, but need a trusted guy who doesn't mind coming over to my garage and working on the 216 at my house. Live in Mandeville, LA.

I just need these issues resolved and I believe that I have reached my level of competency and patience at this juncture.

Please consider helping me out if within 300 miles. Will pay for mileage and hourly rate . I don't want it towed out to a "shop" that doesn't know how to work on these trucks and end up getting shafted without learning anything.

Thanks so much!

Hey Im working on a 216 too what kind vehicle yours in sorry don't know much bout that still learning my self any help of things you know would be great

hope you find someone to show up, but meantime I'll suggest that you start putting old ignition parts back on [assuming you didn't chuck them], one at a time - start with the plug wires .... doesn't sound like anything you did wrong as much as defective replacement parts .... your original problem was more likely fuel than ignition, like flooding at shutdown, in combination with the starter getting too hot [the slow cranking]

Bill

Bill,
Defective new parts? That sounds super. I did actually replace the ignition coil back to original - no change.

Left the rotor (since one of the plastic retainers to the left of the tip was broken allowing it to slide side to side), starter works so leaving that. My original plug wires were bad shape, a few of the connectors are frayed and loose.

The only part I didn't replace was the cap. I don't know.
I just need some guidance and assistance. The money tossing at the ole' beast isn't working. ----

funny, no one mentioned the possible flooding at the carb. Did a rebuild on the Rochester a couple weeks ago. Seemed to run better, but still wouldn't restart well at all.

Now, I fear I have multiple problems brought on by my ignorance and raw stupidity. At least it used to idle!!!

Saint,
Have a look ing the back of the shop manual, there is a section on how to re-install the distributor when the engine has been turned. That way, you will know the spark is happening at the right time. I couldn't tell from the post above if you'd pulled it or not? If you didn't pull it out, you don't have to now, but you mentioned you might have turned it. This part of the book will tell you how to static time the engine too, and check the plug wiring again.


Then, you can pull one of the boots back on the plug wires, and hold the wire back from the plug an 1/8" or so, you should see a nice bright blue spark there, when someone cranks the starter (with key on).

I find that sometimes when I'm getting frustrated, I have to step back, relax, and start over fresh.

If you can type in full sentences, I'm sure you can do this.

For your amusement, you can read through these stories, and you'll be surprised how much you'll pick up.

http://www.gus-stories.org/Alpha_List.htm

I am wondering why you would replace the starter w/ a remanufactured (?) unit if all you found wrong was a $7 set of brushes. Also I'd bet the distributor didn't get placed back in correctly. After 50+ years of fooling around and wrenching I've discovered the number of people who rebuild carbs vs the number who know how to rebuild carbs is about 10,000/1. I'm on the 10K side of the equation and thats why I let a pro do it.

If I were closer I would come help. Sounds like you have the timing way advanced. The dist could be a tooth off or the wires in wrong. Like Lang says, find top dead center then pull the cap & the rotor should be pointing to #1 & the points just opining. You sound inteligent enough to solve this yourself with a little studying. You will be smarter & proud when you do.

Simply because I wanted a new starter. The old one had a rusted casing and the gear teeth were worn down. Didn't want to deal with it, so I went new. (New to me) Not everything needs to be rebuilt by every owner. Wish I had done less quite personally, but I am where I am at this juncture with apparently no mechanics within 300 miles, I will have to figure something out. The Carb was pretty straightforward and ran much better after I finished. This was before my dive into the distributor debacle.

I never removed the distributor so not sure how my timing got freaked up. I don't know. I guess it is just good luck.
:-)

just wondering if maybe you didnt crack a spark plug when messing with the wires. you didnt say you replaced them but if you did you should pull them again and check the spark plug gap also. also i would recheck your firing order and make sure you put the wires on right. pull the cap and have somebody turn it over so you can see which way the rotor turns and then i would put the engine on top dead center on the #1 cylinder. you can do this by pulling the number one plug and turning engine over till the compression stroke. then start reinstalling your wires on the cap starting with number 1. the rotor should be pointing at that terminal. then work your way around the cap the same way the rotor turns with the plug wires in the correct firing order. then reinstall your dist. cap. double check that your wires are going to the right cylinders. sometimes its easy to cross them so what i do is actually run my hand up each wire to its correct cylinder. if your spark plug gaps are good and your firing order is right you should be good to go. i would suggest also checking your timing after getting it running. anyway the only way to learn is to keep trying. if you gety fed up stop for a break. good luck MO

Thanks, mo. I get really inspired and even confused by your insight at the same time. :-) i need to get over my fear of understanding TDC and timing an engine. I am still really confused about how to tell what stroke in cylinder 1 is correct. I hear about silver ball, bell housing, TDC, etc and I just want to understand it and know that I wont do anymore damage to this thing....

Thanks so much........

Andy,
Sit down and take a deep breath, It's probably something minor.Could be a lot of different things,but I would start by looking at the distributor.You said you replaced the condensor but not the points?I would look carefully at the points,but also the wire from the coil that goes into the distributor. The wire if it's the original will probably be old and the insulation will be cracked, that being said look closely at the wire where it goes into the distributor.The wire could be grounding itself as the distributor advances causing the engine to run rough/backfire.Easy fix just replace the wire,I think napa carries the wire. Check the connection to the points from the condensor, some point sets have a slip connector some have a screw post to hold the wire on, just make sure its a good connection. The points have a sping that may have lost tension. Your problem could be minor and probably is,take a deep breath and check the little things,as that is where the answwer is. If I can get free saturday,maybe we can get together and get you back up and running.

Tommy

Tommy,
You are right. Just overwhelmed and frustrated that my truck has had issues since arrival and I haven't yet had a chance to really enjoy it. After spending so much $ on parts, accessories, trim, cabling, then registration and insurance I guess I just grow despondent about the whole process. Need to step away and recharge. I am not really good with points, so might need some guidance.
The coil to distributor wire is a little loose at the distributor. It has plastic molded piece behind the bolt/nut apparently to keep it from being grounded.
Cannot get this tight enough for some reason.

If you are available to come out, I would be truly honored and thankful.
I will definitely reimburse you for your travel, time and labor. Not to mention beer and BBQ. :-)

If not, I will figure it out over time. Thanks.
Cheers.

Failure for someone that is determined is only temporary!!!!! This is just how u learn. Yes it takes way longer than having someone teach you but believe me, in the end you will "get" the leason much better. Be patient and everything will work out. Sounds like you have a small problem so don't freak out. One suggestion, since you didn't remove the distributor, and it ran fine before the tune-up, don't pull the dist. just to see if it is right. It is if it ran good b-4. Like everyone says, you've just got a defective part or MOST LIKELY, just made a small mistake. Besides, you've got a treasure-trove of people here to help you!!! That's more than the average joe has when learning something new!!!

One other suggestion. When replacing parts, any parts, try to do the whole project at once. It sounds like u replaced most but not all of the "tune-up parts". In the case of a tune-up, there is no sence replacing the condenser w/out the points. or definitely, the rotor without the dist. cap. Many parts work together or in conjucture with eachother, so do 'em all if possible. Besides, tune-up parts are cheap. The starter is a good example. You found a couple problems so u just replaced the whole thing. I would've done the same thing. Now you'll probably never have to deal with that starter again. Just replacing the brushes and maybe the gear would've still left you with an "old" starter.

You are correct panhead. Temporary can just seem like forever when you are clueless about something. Frustrating for me especially since I am an engineer. I will figure it out, but won't tell Tommy to stay home if he wants to join the party.... Haha.

Forgot to put the starter return spring back on. Guess that didn't affect much in the big scheme of the engine performance issues, but found it lying on the fender apron.

Hey Saint,

Best thing I ever did with my Stovebolt was get completely comfortable finding Top Dead Center. Once you're over THAT hurdle, everything else seems MUCH easier. If you can find TDC, then timing becomes far-less intimidating. I had NO experience with old engines, and heck . . . I'm a frickin' English Major! So don't stress too much, this is supposed to be fun. You'll be proud once you get past this.

So . . . the post about checking plug wire order is spot-on. When you're familiar with the firing order, you can double-check it yourself, without having to worry about comparing it to how the "old" wires were on.

There are many posts here about finding TDC. I like the companion cylinder method (search on it here or google it), but others like the thumb-over-the-hole or stick-in-the-cylinder way. Regardless, pull the plugs so the engine turns over easy, and make sure it's out of gear (made THAT stupid mistake ONCE!). A starting handle makes it easy to turn the engine over slowly, but lacking that, you can usually turn it over with the fan if you tension the fan belt with one hand while turning the fan with the other (wear gloves). Engine rotation is clock-wise as you look at the fan from the front.

BTW, this is all MUCH easier with a second person. Wish I was near you, I love helping with this stuff. But St. Louis is a little too big a commute! :-)

Another thing - for static timing, once you are able to find the BB timing mark on the flywheel, I like to use a multi-meter set to "continuity" for figuring out when the points open. The "tone" let's me know when the points are still closed, and I just turn it until the tone just stops. Eye-balling it is usually "close-enough" with these engines, however - they're actually fairly forgiving, if you can believe it.

I hope this helps at least a little.

-Michael

Just to confirm

It was running fine
You did not remove the distributor from the block
and you may of rotated the distributor?

Correct. It was running fine and idling like a champ, nice and low & steady. (after recent carb rebuild and adjustment) - Truck would NEVER restart after running. 10 seconds running or 10 minutes. Never made sense, so I decided to replace some other ignition parts. Spark plugs were replaced a couple weeks ago, so that should be a problem. (Truck was running good at that time)

Distributor never removed from block. I may have twisted the cap left slightly to "align" it like I thought it was when it was removed. I took pictures and drew a schematic.
I never touched the points. I replaced the condenser, 6v ignition coil and plug wires. The only shifting that may have occurred would have been a twist of the distributor, like pushing against the vacuum advance and twisting slightly right or left. Did this only after I thought it might be a little 'off' when I put the cap back.

I have a new cap on order. Some of the holes in the cap are 'shiny' and some are really dull. Test for continuity confirmed that are ports are OK, but still looks a little worn.

Also replaced starter and heavy 00 gauge fabric covered cables. Grounds are good. Nothing else adjusted.

i wouldn't jump to the conclusion so fast that this issue isn't causing at least some of your symptoms.. you did say this in your first post: "...almost metallic grinding sound..." Could that be the starter gear still engaging the ring gear? Could this sound you hear be interpreted as poor idling?

Did you put the spring back in and run the motor?

after reading some more of your post you might just have the cap spun 180 check and make sure you have it in the right place. sometimes they look like there on right but there not. make sure its sitting down nice and tight against the distribitor.

Can you post the pic's?

Will post pics and check on the return spring issue when I get a chance. Sitting on the tarmac, ready to fly out today. I cannot thank you all enough for your amazing support, friendship and kindness. It is truly an amazing family.

Are their t-shirts or decals available for stove bolt.com?

http://www.cafepress.com/mystovebolt/6296092

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you can even get a cover for your iphone 4

How do you spin it 180? Mine has a notch in the 2 o`clock position on the distributor that I match it up to. Idk, I might be crazy. Will check it out....

See, you'll sort it out. Just think how nice it will be!

Stovebolt is why I ended up with a GM instead of an old Mercury. You just can't beat the help around here!

Spoke with Tommy (ModelMan) last night from Stovebolt. He couldn't make it out, so I braved the work myself. Turns out after I put the darn return spring back on the starter and replaced the distributor cap & points, it runs much better. He was right, my timing had not been negatively adjusted --- just my confidence.

I posted a video for everyone to check out the engine running.
It sounds good and I adjusted the idle, but cannot tell by ear yet if it where it should be. How do you check RPM without a tachometer?

Let me know.

YOUTUBE:


SINCERE THANKS TO EVERYONE HERE AT OUR STOVEBOLT COMMUNITY. I COULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS WITHOUT YOUR SUPPORT & INSIGHT!!!!

Awesome!

Nice Video

sounds good. Is the engine warm in that video.

I purchased one of these
I have not got the "by ear" thing down yet so the meter helps

Good luck

Thanks. Not really warm yet. Just got my Android tablet to record the video shortly after I got it running. Going to pickup the Sunpro Dwell / tach from Amazon though. It is only $24 shipped there!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00062YUUS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Will the dwell/tach shown above work on 6V systems?

I dunno, you'd have to look at the specs.

I just use a vacuum gauge. I never knew what a fantastic and wonderful thing a vacuum gauge was, until joining the 'bolt here. I had no idea that something that measured suckage could give you such an inside view of the engine.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd45/HomeCrafter/IMGP1769.jpg

Here's a link es-plainin' it. You just hook it up to the intake manifold in place of the vacuum wipers.

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

I used a vacuum gauge already, I have 20inHg from the reading off the base of the carb leading to the wiper motor.

What does this mean in regards to the inside view of the engine and its condition?

If it's steady, that means thumbs up! You can use the gauge to set your idle mixture (once the truck is hot), you just want the highest vacuum reading. You know the drill by now, adjust the idle speed, adjust the mixture, adjust the idle speed, adjust the mixture...Blah blah blah. I don't have a tach, so I just use the shop manual method of setting the idle, high gear on flat ground idle is about 7 mph or whatever. Then adjust he mixture for a smooth idle, just like the manual says.

The engine needs to be hot anyway, so you might as well go for a road test to do this stuff. All you need is a screw driver, and a wrench to fit the octane selector. I just keep these in the glove box.

Once you are running down the road, you set the timing on the road test, using the "octane selector". I like to get the truck hot, and find a local hill where you can do the test in high gear, you slow down, and then tromp on the throttle, if you here pinging (sounds just like glass coke bottles), then you retard the timing a couple of degrees, and try the test again. Or, you keep testing, and advancing the timing until you have to back it off. You need to do this every time you tune the truck, and set the points. Changing the points, or gap changes the timing. By doing this, you get more efficient engine operation, which means both more power, and economy. I guess you don't have to do this step, allot of people don't, but I'm for all the efficiency I can get, as I drive my bus every day. By doing the road test, you can also get a better understanding of how the point gap effects the timing of the engine, and how that can be important.

All this junk is in the shop manual, and they probably do a better job of 'esplainin' it.

Hey Saint, Just wanted to let you know that you are not the only confused one at this forum. I have a 49 1/2 ton and find everytime I work on it I discover more I do not know, but have always got great help from the guys at this forum. One of the best tips I have received was the purchase of my shop manuel. Get one and jump right in there, then ask the experts if you still have problems. The satisfaction you are going to get will be well worth the time soent, not to mention the friends you will meet on stovebolt. Good Luck.

Thanks for the links - I printed all of them for future reference.

You can use your tach with the gauge

and your timming light with gauge.

again I dont have the "by ear" thing down so these tools help me.

Good Luck

Thanks so much everyone. Never knew how much I would learn in just a month or so.... amazing info and people here. Proud to be part of this madness...

does it run yet? Mine just one day started puking gas all out of the carburetor, after I got that figured out, it ran like crap for about 2 months, I changed plugs wires, points, even tried 2 different carburetors, put a pertronix ignition in it nothing worked. Then one day it just started running like a dream. Don't know why, but I was sure happy.