The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop First time doing bodywork. How's it look?

I'm not looking for compliments here. Just honest advice. I have read about bodywork here and there. Now I'm putting my skills to the test.
Please tell me if I seem to have things right or wrong. Obviously, the result is yet to come and will be the true test.

More photos in the bodywork section of my website.

Photos tell the story best.
I use a 7" disc sander for 1st stage paint removal being careful not to damage body lines or remove metal.
Next I used a 3M Sandblaster coarse paint removal disc on my 4.5" grinder. Again being careful about the metal.
Final hand sanding and then metal preservative - Picklex. That stuff keeps it from flash rust and can be removed with water later.
Plans are to do some finishing dolly work, filler, final sand and then epoxy primer.

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How things look have everything to do with preparation. From the looks of what your doing I think it'll turn out fine. I'm not body man but I do know your putting the time into it and it will show when you the paint on. I give you a grade A

agree w/ chip, looks like you're on the right track

Bill

Looks good. When are you coming over to fix my fenders?

Lugnutz,

I'm not a body man, but I've always heard you should epoxy prime before you use body filler. The body filler is porous and could wick moisture, so get the metal close with the dolly, them epoxy prime, then fill, then epoxy prime again to seal everything up, then use a primer sealer and then put the top coat on.

Mike B

What kind of epoxy primer do you plan on using? Not all brands are compatible with picklex type conversion coatings. So if you haven't purchased the epoxy yet, you may want to check its compatibility with picklex first.

Picklex can be removed with a water wash and wipe, but I will make certain that I get a compatible epoxy primer. I know that etching primers are NOT compatible.

I am truly a first timer at all of this bodywork. I decided to do it myself because of the costs to farm it out with variable results from local shops, even those that come recommended. Been there, done that! Not gonna get taken twice.

I read the other threads and take notes, but before purchase, I'll probably ask questions about equipment and costs.

Well, I am a bodyman (35+ years!) and I don't subscribe to the Epoxy under filler method. There's lots of argument on all these forums, but if you look at a fillers can, or it's MSDS sheets, they all say to apply filler on clean ground BARE metal. It was designed to adhere to metal and no moisture will be under it if you grind, wipe with wax and grease remover and apply it - as per the instructions.

Picklex is a favourite with Len over at autobodystore.com. and while I respect him and his methods, I have never tried it. My prefered method is a phosphoric acid wash (I use "Prep and Ready" from POR). It arrests rust, etches new metal and leaves a Zinc Coating. THe Zinc even makes wleding better!

As far as what you are doing, you're doing it right. Just make sure to get a good Wax and Grease remover (PRE from Eastwood is good, or from your local AB store)and use it before you apply anything to anything. Your fingers have grease and acids, the picklex will leave a residue after washing it off, etc. It's a step that gets missed, but is extremely important.

Good luck!

EteckResos is a pro so take my opinion knowing he has 30 yrs more experience than myself. But, here in Florida, I found it easier to get the fender/panel to bare metal, clean with PRE, then shoot with epoxy primer. This would keep the fender from flash rusting while I hammer/dolly out the dents. Then I would rough up the dent and surrounding epoxy with aggressive grit paper and do my filler work. Once level, I would scuff the entire fender for another coat of epoxy and then on to 2k for final.

The main reason for this method is I would have a couple hours a weekend to work on a fender. If I left metal exposed it would flash rust in a few hours. You wouldn't have that problem in a humidity free environment though.

I used the Picklex because it is supposed to prevent flash rust and allow me the time needed to bang out the dents. I am fairly sure it has phosphoric acid in it, but I need to review the MSDS sheet. Like you, I have small periods of time to work and need to keep the project moving. I will keep my website updated for those who want to see my results. I REALLY appreciate the advice given since I am new to all of the bodywork stuff.

But then you have to deal with compatibility issues. The way I noted, removes one layer of potential problems.

Definitely keep us updated and good luck!

I just got off the forum with Len over at Autobodystore Forums. He confirmed that the Picklex CAN be removed with a warm water wash, HOWEVER, since the metal has been treated I should stay away from primers that contain ACID.

I went with a similar approach as jomicheal using spi epoxy as my primer. The one area of concern is that the rust and metal prep products leave a residue in the pores of the metal which only lift out when wiped and rinsed with water WHILE THE PRODUCT IS WET AND ACTIVATED. So just remember that if you let it sit overnight to reapply your product and let it react a bit before washing is off.
Also this would be the place where you practice being anal about getting everything wiped and washed good.
I was nervous as hell when I first started all worried about moisture getting to the metal. I came up with all sorts of ways to do it dry using grinders sanders and drills but in the end in places I couldn't easily remove or prep, I used a marine product called phosphor prime. I just made double sure I got it all off and still took the pressure washer to it followed by the shop vac blower to dry it off.
In places like the inside of the doors when I was redoing the bottoms I knew I wasn't going to be as thorough so I used rustoleum prepped metal primer instead of epoxy eliminating compatibility issues altogether.

The cool thing about epoxy I like is that nothing is stronger or more water tight and that's maybe the one reason I would choose to go epoxy then filler plus as mentioned earlier once you've got it sprayed it can sit and wait for you to get to it.

keep up the good work

The filler under/over epoxy primer can/will be argued forever, I've done both & both ways work. Kinda like what oil do you use or what gasket sealer you prefer. I gotta chip dropped body filler off the shop floor using a hammer/chisel, and it's all dirty & dusty, so I feel it will stick to my fender regardless.

The biggest problem with getting advice on a forum setting is that regardless of whether someone knows anything about the paint products you are using, you'll get plenty of advise for rust conversion products without considering those paint products and cross-product compatibility. From SPI's Epoxy primer data sheet:



House of Kolor also advises against any rust conversion coating or etch primer with their epoxy. No matter what it takes to neutralize one of these conversion products, if some of it remains in the bottom of some deep rust pits (an area harder to get clean), it is sitting there waiting to wreak havoc. With either of the above mentioned primers, and possibly others, all it will take is to sit in the sunlight on a warm afternoon at a car show, and once the acid deposits left on the panel start reacting, you'll have some nice 1/8 diameter circles under your paint where you are experiencing lifting issues from the acid reacting with your primer. What did the paint job cost the first time? Guess how much gets sanded off to fix this mess?

I prefer to sand blast where possible (jambs, inner doors, and any other "creased" areas) and DA or otherwise abrade any flat areas that are subject to distortion from sandblasting. If I run across any pitting, I check it with an ice pick. If it will hold the ice pick, sandblast the pit clean. If the ice pick goes through, the pitted area would have made it through your new paint in the form of bubbling or other defects within a year or two anyhow. I typically cut any pitting areas out and install new metal. I find bright, shiny, properly abraded metal needs no rust conversion, and this abraded metal is a perfect surface for adhesion of any epoxy primer without any fear of lifting/reaction issues.

Lugnutz,
How do you like that sanding disc? Did it last a good while? and whered you get it?

Looks like you are doing a great job. Just remember the key word to bodywork is Patiences. When you get tired of it stop until later.

I had a 3M SandBlaster disc on at first but used it all up. I was at Harbor Freight getting some 7" sanding discs and saw a product that was similar. So the disc with the orange label is from HF and it works very well. I stripped the PS fender tonight and it took about 75 minutes with just the HF disc. I have some SERIOUS bodywork to do on the PS fender!! LOL!!!

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I agree - my research confirms that SPI and House of Kolor epoxy primers are NOT compatible with Picklex-20.

Thanks for following up on this point guys. I think the trouble we newbe's to resto and body work run into is we know the rust has to go but often don't have the equipment, the space, or the money for someone else to blast our metal clean. We read the stories of having someone else blast a panel and warping it, or maybe they used sand or soda instead of an epoxy safe media (i.e. walnut or glass etc.) and left residue in the pores or the metal which will come back and bite as much as the un-neutralized converters will and that can be as scary as the problem with converters to a novice.
So while a clean and proper blast might be best practice number one, we can't all always meet best practice protocols but we still want to approach that standard with the tools and techniques available to us.
I fall squarely in that demographic which is why I called Barry at SPI and spoke several times with him about the specific question.... What IS the recommended way to neutralize and remove a rust removal product?
Barry told me the problem is only a problem if the proper neutralizing isn't done properly AND that it's still a big gamble cause you can easily miss some small spot which WILL come back and bite you. He stressed the need to be very anal about this step. The key again was to make sure I was removing the product while it is wet and 'active' and that simply hosing it off was not going to cut it.
My conversation was regarding a phosphoric acid based product, I don't know what Picklex is formulated from so I don't want to infer its the same process, simply that there are 'safe but only under stringent conditions' alternatives to those of us "less fortunate" when it comes to tools or equipment.
I see it as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do we forgo using the best practice of epoxy primer because we couldn't afford to blast? There are plenty of primers that will work with the rust converters but they aren't epoxy.
I chose to bite the bullet and spend the extra time needed to convert and neutralize since I have way more of that than extra money. BUT, I only used it in places I couldn't easily access with the DA, Grinder or my hands.
I hope this doesn't wind up sounding like a blanket approval of rust products because it isn't intended to. It's intended to address the question of 'proper neutralizing' and maybe the reasons we choose to use what we use.
And hopefully move the discussion from whether or not they are safe (we all acknowledge they are NOT) to CAN they be safe and how do we approach that?

I received the MSDS sheet via an email directly from Picklex-20. The active ingredient is phosphoric acid. No big secrets here.

I do not intend ( or want ) to end arguments about best procedures for preparing metal and epoxy primers. Thus far this has not gotten out of hand and all that's been shared is sensible. I hope it stays that way.

My situation demands that I add a protective coating against flash rust. I will honestly share any failure or success as I proceed with this project so that others can learn. In the end, I hope it works out ok.

I have thought through things, made decisions, (although controversial to some) and will ALWAYS appreciate the advice of those willing to help me.

Thanks for adding that bit. This is one of the few threads I have seen on this topic that shows the OP has actually done research, and pros and cons both have been discussed. I think part of the issue that we all face, human nature lends that we are looking for the easy way out. Add to that, unfortunately many times the conversion coatings are billed as the best thing since sliced bread, with little if any discussion of the proper methods of neutralizing, or the need to be anal in doing so, as Barry put it. Lacking this important info, one may indeed run into problems. Considering the high cost of paint products, the discussion of all aspects (in greater detail) are vital for anyone to make an informed decision and to insure success.

Sorry if my post sounded controversial. I didn't intend it to, was just trying to get more info out there. But sounds like you've done the research needed for success in your project.

MP&C, Just to be clear, I agree with you and like you hope to avoid sounding controversial because if those options of blasting become available to me I'll go with your approach in a heartbeat.

Lug sent tme the Tech and MSDS sheets on Picklex and from what I read, the product doesn't need to be washed completely off, or neutralized (according to them). It says it needs to be perfectly dry (wipe, forced air and time)but that was it. They also state that it actually AIDS in aherence of primers and paints - and they don't specify WHICH primers or paints. the only precaution I read was not to use an Etch Primer over it (presumably due to the acid content).

As Lug previously said, it's basic active ingredient is Phosphoric Acid - like most rust converters. The Picklex MSDS sheet says it's part of a chemical group called "Ortho-Esters".....but after a bit of research, I couldn't tell you how that figures into it!

I'm compiling a list of epoxy primers that are KNOWN to be compatible with Picklex-20. HOK and SPI are on the NON-COMPATIBLE list.

On another subject, my bodywork skills are coming along nicely. I find it very satisfying to hammer dents out and see my fenders looking fairly normal again.

Alot of your newer high end fillers are polyester based now as opposed to the old plastics they used to use, and can be put over painted or primed surfaces if scuffed up with a rougher paper. I use 80 grit. There are still plastic based fillers
out there that DO require being put on bare metal. PPG makes a good epoxy primer (CRE) that doesn't require any etch priming first. I have used this on many resto's for customer over the last 20 years with excellent results. A problem many novice bodyman have is putting too much hardner in there mud mix. The two parts together create heat and lots of it, enough to burn the skin. When mixed too hot (too much hardner) and put on bare metal that is at a lower temp than the mix, condensation starts as the filler dries. Condensation is moisture that is now trapped between your filler and bare metal. Rust is starting before you even get your fill blocked out. This is where you see Fillers "popping" out with rust under them. A job that looks great after it's done can be falling apart within months of completion. If your going to spend the money for "quality" products, then work your metal as close to perfect as you can get it without fillers, then strip it down and put a good couple coats of epoxy on it. Remember, the correct metal files can save alot of fill in the end. There excellent for removing small flaws and slight high spots caused from bumping your sheet metal. My shop has used this process for years on some very high end cars that get driven regularly and still look like the just left the shop yesterday.
You could endup with a thousand different opinions on this. The best thing to do is buy products that fit your skill level and budgit, Research them and use them like the Spec Sheets say. Never just go by what the guy at the counter tells you.
And like Etekrestos said. Avoid touching any bare metal with your hands if you can, it can and will cause unneeded problems.