The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay foot lever starter problem

ok my truck turns over by hand , after 17 years of sitting , just had the starter rebuilt for way to much $$$$$$$$$, when i put it back on the truck , and went to start it , the lever that pushes against the spring loaded starter button , got stuck to it , and started smoking real bad , even with the key off , until i unhooked the pos. battery cable , then smoked about 15 more minutes , and finally quit ,then I noticed the lever got so hot it was stuck (almost like welded to the starter button ), i tapped it loose with a small hammer, and after cooling i tried it again. it seems every time the 2 parts come in contact with each other this continues to happen , (only now without the smoke )I know the starter still works because it will turn over (very little ) each time I retry it , could this be an electrical problem , even though I believe it is all wired up correctly , thanks 55redstove

there should be an insulating piece inside the box the button is on to prevent battery power from shorting directly to the pedal arm and ground, you may have fried something in the starter - take the box off and look at how it works, either your rebuilder messed up or the switch there was buggered to start with

Bill

The truck will have a ground strap going to the frame from the battery and to the frame from under the foot starter linkage on the bellhousing, you may want to check and make sure they are making contact. As Bill said you usually find two thin insulator plates inside the switch. It is a copper lug to a copper button essentially as a connection. It arcs and is destroyed over time maybe it has something wrong with it internally. it is really simple just the 2-screws and the battery connection hold it on.

The rebuilder screwed up your starter. Get it off the truck while it's still good and hot, and apply it to his backside!
Jerry

thanks all , I'll take it back today , hope he stands behind his work ,

ok. put the rebuilt starter back in and no difference , anyone have any ideas what else to look for ? thanks 55redstove

Have you checked your cables? Have you checked that the little insulating things are in the switch on top of the starter?

Is the linkage touching the cable end where it bolts to the starter? Try moving the cable terminal to a different position. That should be obvious to anyone who has ever had a wrench in his hand, but maybe not. How about posting a picture of the starter with the cable attached to it?
Jerry

newly rebuilt starter , switch insulators new , all cables clean and tight , i'm really starting to think their are some crossed wires somewhere , from previous owner(s) can some one tell me or post a pic of wiring for push button foot starter , all i really need is ignition , balast , coil , and starter , wiring only , thanks again , 55redstove.

Starter pic

Did your rebuilder change the drive gear?

yes . the picture looks exactly like mine but i have another black wire also , connected to the same spot on the starter,? is this correct ? I don't know where it goes !

I just had a thought- - - - -is the switch installed backwards where the foot linkage is contacting the battery cable connection? It's supposed to be pushing the spring-loaded button.
Jerry

Yes that should be a 10ga. wire, which is the buss that feeds all the rest of the electrical
system.
The other wire in that loom with the 10ga. wire is goes to the ingnition to supply power to
the ignition.

Boy a picture sure would help. Like the others have said, this is a pretty simple setup,
something is arsbackwards or installed wrong when it was rebuilt, and if we could see it
we might be able to solve it.
DG

If it's an original 12 volt application, there should be a small connector for the resistor bypass wire, and a 12 or 14 ga. wire attached to it going to the coil (+) terminal downstream of the ballast resistor. The 10 Ga. wire should go from the battery cable terminal to one side of the ammeter.
Jerry

no its installed properly , i took off the feed wire , the other smaller black wire ,off the starter , it made no difference , also I just noticed it doesnt matter what position the key is in , it will ingage , even without the key ?

the key has nothing to do with the foot start, it only makes/breaks the coil and accessory power, the starter is connected directly to the battery .... the only way you could be 'welding' the pedal arm [a good ground, being bolted to the bellhouse] to the starter button is if there is a direct short from the + in the starter to the button, which would be an un-insulated switch mechanism - have you taken it off and inspected it or are you depending on the shop?

Bill

after having it rebuilt twice , it better be right , but I guess I'll pull it again , and pull the switch for inspection , also i have a braded ground strap that goes from the bottom of the floor pan to the top starter mounting bolt , should this be moved to a bell housing bolt ? thanks again

I assume from your handle that this is a 1955? But so far I haven't seen any mention whether this is a 1st. series or 2nd. or whether it is a 6v or 12v or converted 12v.
DADS50 link to the picture shows you EXACTLY how the starter should be wired and how the starter switch should be mounted.
DG

Make sure there is not a wire shorted/pinched by the foot stomp assembly when depressed.

2nd series , 12 v, don't know if its been converted, and yes as i mentioned already its exactly like the link pic. no frayed or pinched wires.just a thought ,what would happen it i put a plastic or rubber cap over the starter push button ?

Wouldn't take long for it to rub through a rubber cap.

Sounds like the new switch is bad. Sounds like when your lever makes contact with the plunger that it is grounding the plunger.

Go look at a new switch and have your old one there to compare it to the new one.

The plunger should be insulated on the inside to keep it from grounding to the lever. Sounds like it is missing some parts inside.

thanks for the advice , however it's a brand new switch and nothing missing inside, all insulators in place , if i knew where to find a new one though i would be curious to compare them , thanks, 55redstove

Your local auto parts store should be able to get one.

Best I remember the lever is not insulated in any way from it's mounts.

How about your ground connections? Run your ground cable from the battery directly to a bolt on the starter or bell housing where the starter mounts.

If the starter is not getting a good ground, it may be hunting a ground through the lever mechanism.

The lever isn't insulated. The button on the switch IS insulated from the attached copper connector that contacts the starter. Check that with your meter. Be sure the contact on the starter itself isn't grounded, otherwise you're taking 12v(Bat) directly to gnd whenever you push the switch which can be exciting. Is there voltage on the starter button all the time? If so that's the trouble..there should never be any voltage there.

Do you have a voltmeter or test light? Check between the starter button and ground to see if you have a short. The button may have to be depressed for it to show up. Insulate the foot stomp assembly so it cant short to the button. If you get voltage, its got to be the starter. Or you can disconnect the battery lead, then check for continuity between the battery terminal on the starter and the push button. Once again it will need to be pushed just as if you were engaging the starter. If you get continuity, its the starter.
It sure sounds like the problems in the push button assembly.
The ground comment is also a good possibility.
You dont want to just cover the button, you need to find the problem.
Good luck.

How is the ground hooked up your truck? If it goes to the body first, then off the body to the starter, there is a real good chance the starter is trying to hunt a ground through the starter lever.

My suggestion if you have it this way, would be to go from the battery to the bell housing (starter mounting bolt) and ground there, then run another ground off that to the body.

The more I think about it, the more I think it has to be a poor ground problem.

Keep us posted.

i will try this and let you know this afternoon , thanks

i thought for sure this would do it , braided ground strap an battery ground cable both hooked to upper starter bolt at bell housing ,but made no difference. also i did test with a meter and test light, there is absolutely no current on starter button or linkage lever , even when fully depressed !

Did you take the starter back to the rebuilder and let them test it?

Has to be current going through the switch plunger for the lever to be grounding it. So something inside the switch or starter is messed up.

Not that I think it makes any difference, but the cables are correct on the battery?

The switch on the top of the starter is pretty straight forward in how it works. The post the battery cable hooks to has to be insulated from the switch case. And it must be or it would spark like mad when you hook up the cables. The plunger simply has a bar that when the plunger goes down, this bar makes contact between the post the cable hooks to, and the main cable inside the starter. The only way the plunger of the switch can be causing this is if the plunger of the switch is some how not insulated from the bar attached to it.

Can you get any pics of your starter set up and post a link?

Here is a pic of an old started switch to add to the description Roy Rodgers gave.

...pic...

You can see the insulation around the copper lugs.


You prevuoisly described the linkage arc-ing when depressing the foot start.
at any time is this starter turing your flywheel?


To add what others have suggested, posting links to some pics would help.

starters been rebuilt twice now ,but i'm starting to suspect it again, aside from the switch what else can cause this ,like where the lever goes into the starter?.as stated previously all cables and grounds ,clean , and tight , and correct , switch is new and insulators in proper place,everything seems right until i push the foot pedal and it does turn over the motor, but when i let off the pedal it quits cranking , but lever gets stuck to button like tack welded . and it starts to smoke till i disconnect possitive cable , then i have to break 2 parts loose.

The switch has got to be shorted. The dang things are only ten bucks new
and there are only two 10-32 screws holding it on. Just change the starter switch,
they're available from every vendor that sells reproduction parts and every
FLAPS and most every Farm supply store cuz they were used on a zillion
tractors. At the very least buy a four dollar multimeter from Harbor Freight,
take it off and check to see if the switch is shorted.
From the sound of it and the smell of smoke I’d be surprised if the coils
weren’t shorted to each other by now.
DG

since it is brand new ,i'll take it off again , and check it wiyh a meter, what is the procedure ? I don't suspect it but i almost hope thats all it is , thanks again

The switch:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138567173
Open contact, insulation washer good:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138567175
Dead short across contact:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138567176
$4 Harbor Freight multimeter.
DG

ok , i got a new switch down at tractor supply , and guess what ? just what I suspected , it didn't fix the problem, this is getting very discouraging,I'vewasted way to much time and effort on this stupid starter and wish I could move on to other issues to get this thing maybe running.butfirst I have to get past this issue , I hope this isn't going to be a prerequisite as to how the rest of the trucks gunna go
I do appreciate all the help out there , and I'm glad to have this forum , and I realize we've exhausted about all are options, but if anyone has any new ideas untried thus far , please send them along , thanks again 55redstove

Does the engine turn by hand? It's possible it's just locked up so tight the starter can't turn it. Does the starter run when it's tested off the engine?
Jerry

the engine turns over pretty well by hand '+ i still have the plugs out to keep off compression , and yes the starter benches just fine !

There's got to be an installation error, then. Can you post a picture of the starter installed on the engine? If not, take a cell phone pic and email it to me.
Jerry

Do these starters have the insulated wire that runs across the brushes inside? Mine once shorted, got one brush hold down hot enough it didn't push the brush tight onto the armature. Darn thing would still start the truck if the engine was cold though!

After reading all this, I look forward to seeing a pic too.



Just think, you'll laugh about this someday. My weak spring had me stymied for months, and months. Maybe not for a few days though. You'll get it, just have to keep plugging away.

i have a pic. from this morning , but only know how to send as an attachment in e-mail