The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Say it ain't so. . . . .

Well, the 49 3800 developed a knocking sound over the past few weeks. I feared the worst. Today I confirmed the worst.

Dropped the oil pan after lunch, found all of the rod bearings to be WWWWWAAAAYYYY out of spec. #2 actually have little models of the grand canyon evenly centered in the 4 quadrants of the rod bearing(it it were a clock, 2, 4 8, and 10 pm.) and its clanging noise matched the knock under load.

So I put everything back together, put the pan back on.

Did I mention the cable control for activating the PTO is routed right under the pan fiddle tight so that it makes everything just difficult enough that re-aligning the oil pan is next to impossible.

So it looks like I will be pulling for overhaul.

Funny to me is that I pulled some of the other caps, and some have been machined for inserts, and some(like #2) have not.

How's the surface of the crankshaft? If it's still round, a rod can be installed from the bottom side on some engines. Just disconnect the big end, roll the crank off to the side, and pull the piston down in the cylinder far enough to loosen the clamp bolt and slide the wrist pin out. I've seen guys change an entire set of babbit rods that way, or you could have the original-style rods machined for inserts after they're removed. If the crank is scored or out of round, do the full rebuild. This works on a 216- - - -the 235 has a big enough piston it's impossible to pull them down far enough to expose the wrist pin.
Jerry

I would guess that someone else had the same problem and fixed some of the rods. Getting them machined for inserts is the way to go.

HL- that is not a bad idea, the crankshaft is smooth and appears to be round. Not sure though without further inspection. The Guy I bought the truck form owned it for some time and made Church Mice look wealthy. So I figure he had fixed whatever he had to. I will probably go through the rebuild just because so many parts of this motor are very worn. To be honest, I am suprised it lasted this long. It will also give me an excuse to pull the front bodywork and the engine and trans and clean everything. BUt the thought did cross my mind. Did I mention the gap between the side of the rod caps and the crank is around .024 on most of them, the all very a little. Lots of side play, and the compression was pretty low.

Has anyone use the chev's of the 40's master engine kit, does Carter have the equivalent. My local Carquest has a really decent machine shop and they will completely rebuild the engine for me, with the components of my choice. Lately with work time is something I do not have much of. But, I could put the engine stand in my garage and rebuild it here, jobbing out the machine work.

Sam, take you side clearace between one side of the upper half of the con rods and the flange of the crank pin, not at the cap. .004" to .011"
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I did that as well, not much different. Maybe .020 on those. It is overall just very worn. I would say long runs on old oil, and lack of adjustment over time is the cause. I also want to check the depth of the galleries to make sure they are correct, and the dippers in comparison to my "good" engines. Shows actually how well these engines were made that they can handle that much abuse and still function.

I have spoken with a few folks and I think I will pull the engine, de-grease it, then haul it to the house for rebuild in my garage, jobbing out the machine work to a couple of local shops. I am looing forward to spending lots of quality time in the garage.

So I have been delaying the teardown of the engine. I decided today to start the engine and let it warm up and then I would do a compression test. I did that and all of the cylinders came in around 120 +/- 2 lbs.

So Now I am wondering if I have bad carbon buildup- and the knock is a bad bearing/pinging.

So the current plan is to pull the 160' thermostat and put in a 180. run it to temp, then seafoam it.
I will plan from there on the bearings. More than likely I will pull the head for cleaning and fresh head gasket, and while it is off I will push the pistons up out of the top and replace the rods, inspect all of the journals on the crank and then close everything up. Other than the knock the engine runs very well.

I will let you know what happens today later on this evening.

Seafoaming complete(ended up just using water and pouring it slowly from a bottle. The thermostat was shot, used the oven test. It opened at the first sign of rising temps. So the new thermostat in and the truck warms nicely. I let it run a little while, then removed the aircleaner and began pouring the water.

I held the throttle pretty far open to keep the engine running while I slowly added the water. Did not really notice any smoke, I did kill the engine once. quickly restarted and completed pouring 16oz of water in while running. I noticed that the multiple knocking sounds are down to just one. And that is coming from the area of the #2 cylinder. which is the bad rod bearing I mentioned earlier. So the current plan is to pull the head for cleanup. I will then drop the pan and push the piston out of the top, and get the 2 that are not machined for inserts machined, then get all new insert rod bearings and re-install. then fresh head and pushrod cover gaskets and some paint.

After the water treatment I did get it out on the road and run it to burn out any leftover moisture. I ran better than pre-test. More power. I think that could be the help of the engine running at temp, and getting rid of the carbon.

Next weekend will be the bulk of the work, then waiting for the rods and new bearings to come in.

More to come.

I have used Slick 50 engine treatment for knocks before. Pretty pleased a few times.

Not doubting you but slick50 is a synthetic lubricant. I have used it in tired old engines improving mileage and performance. It's not gonna make a knock quit, it might make a noisy lifter quieter.

In this case FGT is right, the bearings need replacing. The knock is from something having to much of a gap, not just lack of oil penentration.

True... in my experience in smaller engines those knocks have always lead to breaking down a motor.

UPDATE!!!!

Today, after letting the truck sit for awhile, I finally got back to work. Pulled the pan. Pulled all rod caps, #2 and #4 rods were babbit, the others .002 inserts. the crank journals all are clean, smooth and mirror-like. Tried removing wrist pins from below. no luck. So, pulled head and pushed #2 and #4 through the top. everyhting looks good. I found that the amount of slude under the pushrod cover differs from the head to the block so I would venture to say the head has been off before. Copper head gasket. The solid lifter in #4 exhuast had a crack just below the lip at the top of the main cylinder, it went all the way around, and deep enough you could wiggle the top. I have never seen that before. So I will match one from my spare engines and replace. I will also wire brush all the lifters and ports for lifters to make sure they are clean, as well as everything else I can.

Tomorrow I will drop off the two rods for machining, and pick up gaskets, shims, inserts( .002) and plastigage for re-assembly on Tuesday. I am planning on running 15w40, because of the rebuild, and it is cold here now. I will probably run it for a short amount of miles, then change to help flush out any debris from the work.

Hope to have her back on the road tuesday night so that I can give my sister a ride on Christmas(She is in from out of town).

More updates to come, thanks for any comments.

Exchanged the Rods today at Paul's Rod and Bearing in Parkville, Mo. They had them on the shelf, and the stamped numbers on the sides even matched)the single digit where the rod and cap meet). I then went to J carter's and picked up inserts and a few gaskets. So it looks like we are on tap for re-assembly tomorrow.
Let you know how it goes.

Well, got everything installed and everything ran great. Until one of the exchange rods broke and punched holes through my block. So the 49 216 that inhabits my one ton will be pulled. Tomorrow that will happen(my brother will do that). And while that is going on I will be inspecting my 41 216 for retrofit of some of the 49 216 components and prepping for install. The goal is to have the 41 in place by Sunday. Did I mention I love impossible missions.

Well . . . crap!

In the interest of forensic motorology, how about some details? Which rod was it, #2 or #4? Where did the rod brake, how'd it happen?

AND, most important of all, WHY!?!?!?

We know this engine had some issues before, as it had a mix of babbit and insert bearings, yes? What else do we know that tells why an allegedly new con-rod would break minutes into its first run?!

-Michael

Pics of the broken rod would be good. Sorry to hear about the maiden run.

Well here is what we found on tear down. First, the engine was making a clanging sound and running poorly. So we pulled the dipstock and found that it had lots of coolant in it. Then the rocker arm cover came off. We had found the bent push rod the night before and I had swapped it for a spare. So we pushed the truck into the barn and began tear down. We were thinking sticking valve, broken lifter, somewhere in that neighborhood. The engine had belonged to a very poor family previously, so we figured maybe something else was worn, but we could not think of what it was because of the going over.

So off came the side cover- lifter was in good shape. Then the manifold. Then the head. One thing jumped out at us. Not all of the pistons were at consistent levels with each corresponding piston. #2 was completely topped out. So much so that it had markings of the head on it.

So off comes the pan.

The Rod on #2 had broken just behind the Wrist Pin Clamp Bolt. The rest still attached to the piston. We pulled the rod cap and pushed the piston out of the top. All components still had assembly lube covering everything.
What it looks like is material failure of the connecting rod. I have never seen one break in this manner before. When it broke it layed over against the drivers side of the cylinder as the piston went up, when the cylinder fired it broke the piston skirt off that side and forced the rod through the cylinder wall into the cooling jacket. Then it did similar damage(more of a crack) to the passenger side. Wirst pin is clean and in good shape. infact, other than the #2 piston and rod, and the #2 cylinder, everything is great on the engine.

So some thoughts were to pull everything and put in a spare engine. Now I am thinking about sleeving the cylinder and continuing to use the engine. the rod and bearing shop will exchange the bad rod at no charge, the new insert bearings are fine on that rod. So tomorrow I think I will start calling around to machine shops to ask about the insert process.

Originally I thought about putting my spare 41 216 in, but I like the insert bearings, and a lot of the benefits of the later 216. Hotrod Lincoln and I have been messaging about it, and I think it is not a bad idea. I am used to working on many antique tractors with sleeved engines.

I will let you know what I find.

Still heart wrenching though. It was running better than ever.

So thats the story.

Talked to local flaps machine shop. They will machine the cylinder and install a sleeve for around $150. For that price they will match the piston and return it ready to go for assembly. So that is the current plan.

That should work nicely for that engine. I have had several sleeved over the years for various reasons and never had any problems with them.

Sounds good on price too.

Get 'er done.

Well I should have the engine out tomorrow. I could not quite get it though the hood opening with the radiator support in place, so that will come out in the morning, and god willing, so should the engine.

I got a small steam cleaner for Christmas, so I will probably use it to clean the firewall and frame area around the engine compartment and the trans. Then touch those areas up with some fresh black paint.

The engine will get fresh gray paint, I will probably use Vintage Farmall gray. I have a gallon leftover from another project, and it is very close to the original Chevy engine gray. I am looking forward to driving the truck when it is done.

Well. It has been awhile but today I got everything back together and the truck runs great. The local carquest machine shop overhauled the engine. They had to sleeve 2 cylinders. Number 2 where the rod went through and 3 where it hit enough to crack the cylinder wall. They turned the crank down .10 and the cylinders were honed and new rings installed. All new inserts(2 new rods) all new gaskets of course. They also cleaned up the flywheel. The head was cleaned with new valve stem seals and seats. Now the downside is the starter is acting up, so we have been starting with the hand crank. Compression is definitely up. I planned to drive it over to the folks place, but the original ignition switch has literally called apart, so I will get a replacement tomorrow and pull the starter and go through it. Purrs like a kitten though. Happy to have it back to being roadworthy.

Today's work was installing clutch and pressure plate, trans, driveshaft, pto shaft, reconnecting all of the control linkages for the handbrake and hydraulic hoist, footbrake and clutch pedal(will adjust tomorrow). Pics to come. By the way international harvester dark gray looks very close to the original 216 gray.

Glad you finally got it back together Sam. Sometimes things take awhile. I hope you have a good, dependable 216 now that will last another 60 years...
I miss my 216, and my 50 Chevy. But the guy in Fond du Lac that bought it drives the heck out of it... maybe I'll get another one someday.

Drove the first 3 miles tonight. Ran great. Now for the break in period.