The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Transmission & Engine Marriage

So, I attempted to marry my transmission to the engine. I followed the directions as found in the GM shop manual. Things did not go well at all. The whole assembly would get with in a 1/4 of an inch, but would not completely seat. The top of the bell-housing would touch the area on the engine, but the sides would no close up. Tried clamps, bolts, and prayers.
Each part was fitted individually to ensure that items like to bell housing where okay, the transmission without the bell housing was inserted in the pilot bushing and clucth, with no problems. A mark was made on the lay shaft to ensure that it went deep enough and it appeard too. Here is the story, when I went to get the transmission rebuilt the re builder told me the tranny I brought with me was off a 67 Camaro. No, I said, but a 58 Apache 1/2 Ton. He then proceeded to prove to me that, that was not true. He had another tranny that did have the correct numbers for a 58", but no things are not assembling well at all.

Any thoughts, now that I have written war and peace?

What truck exactly? short wheelbase or long wheelbase?

What engine/year/model is in the truck and what year/transmission/model are you trying to mate with it?

-W

sounds like the clutch needs to be centered, did you line up the pressure plate with the pilot bushing? If you have it that close have someone push the clutch, with the transmission in gear shake it a little bit and it should go in place, you may have to turn the tail shaft a little for the clutch splines to line up.

sounds like the clutch needs to be centered, did you line up the pressure plate with the pilot bushing? If you have it that close have someone push the clutch, with the transmission in gear shake it a little bit and it should go in place, you may have to turn the tail shaft a little for the clutch splines to line up.

I don't know if this will help at all, but here's part of a write up I did on a tremec install...

I'm pretty sure this is pretty basic stuff to most readers, but it was a nice day so I took pics anyway.

I already had everything apart, so this starts with assembly. Nothing special with disassembly other than the pilot bearing. They make pullers, but I use roller bearings so I just chiseled the old one out.

After a good cleaning of the area, install your pilot bearing. If you use roller bearings, make sure to put the seal out. It's the end that looks like it has a "cap" over the bearings. I use a socket that fits the OD of the bearing and tap it in. It needs to be flush with the end of the crank.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/01.jpg

The flywheel goes on next. I used a pair of vise grips to hold it stationary when I torqued it (60 ft/lbs).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/02.jpg

The clutch and pressure plate will install next. The disc will usually have one side that sticks out more on the dampener - this side faces the pressure plate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/03.jpg

Most discs come with an alignment tool. This one didn't so I buffed an old one down a bit. Easy task, you just have to make sure that it's taken down evenly so it still centers the disc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/04.jpg

Next part to install is the clutch and pressure plate. Start all 6 bolts and run then in hand tight only. Then install the alignment tool making sure it goes into the pilot bearing all the way. then torque those bolts to about 32.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/06.jpg

Now you're ready to install the bell housing and throw out bearing. Two tips here. First, if you have headers, it will probably help to tilt the engine down in back (you'll want to when you stab the tranny anyway). You want to be careful not to break your distributor cap on the firewall, but a little room makes a lot of difference. Second, the clutch fork usually has a couple of "fingers" on each side. Both of these go inside the outer lip of the throw out bearing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/08.jpg

After all that is done, hook up the clutch linkage. Nothing special here except it may be a good idea to use needle nose pliers instead of your fingers to grab the anti vibrate spring. If you slip, that little bastard will give you a nice little hole in the finger... or so I heard.

You're pretty much ready to stab the tranny.

Stabbing the transmission is fairly easy if you aligned your clutch properly. The important part is not to force stuff. I usually remove the swivel from my floor jack and bolt a 6" wood block in its place to better balance. Set the tranny on a floor jack and ease it into place. It's important to have the transmission parallel to the engine before you start the stab. Have the tranny in gear so once everything is lined up, you can turn it to match its splines with the clutch disc. Once the splines are mated, a little wiggling and pushing, both gently, and it should slide in. Never pull it in with the bolts. Once the face of the tranny and bell housing are touching, install the bolts and torque them.
.

I was going to leave the transmission story alone, but after staring at this thing for some time, I'm thinking it's where we need to start. Are you saying you don't know or recall what transmission you dropped off at the Rebuilders? (This is not a rub, I need some clarification to help you). I'm assuming the transmission is a 3 speed. Please bear with me as my truck knowledge is in the AD era AND limited at that. My question is, isn't the driveshaft in a '58 1/2T Apache a slip spline type? If this is the case, then wouldn't there be a problem trying to bolt universal trunion or stub (whatever it's called) to the tailshaft of the Camaro transmission?

Just a thought, Are these supposedly the parts removed from this truck? I'm not addressing the 1/4" problem, persay, just trying to identify if you are working with the correct transmission. However, this may equate to the 1/4" problem.

Yes, the clutch was lined up with the plastic lay shaft provided with the clutch kit.

It's a short wheel base 283, 1958. 1/2 ton truck

The yokes are fined splined vs. the original coursed splined. Another problem known but soon to be dealt with.

After a good cleaning of the area, install your pilot bearing. If you use roller bearings, make sure to put the seal out. It's the end that looks like it has a "cap" over the bearings. I use a socket that fits the OD of the bearing and tap it in. It needs to be flush with the end of the crank.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/01.jpg

The flywheel goes on next. I used a pair of vise grips to hold it stationary when I torqued it (60 ft/lbs).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/Avette4me/Vette/Tremec/install/02.jpg

The clutch kit purchased, had a traditional non roller bearing pilot bearing. Does it matter if the flywheel goes on before the pilot bearing. The pilot bearing sites in the crank shaft in a seat, so long as it is the seat does it really matter which goes first? The flywheel was in place first, so if it does matter this could be the problem.

Sometimes when a new pilot bushing is installed. the fit of the transmission shaft is very tight to the new bushing. Sometimes they dont always go in on the first try, ive seen that happen before. You may have to rock the tranny back & forth to get it to go in. I usually install the bellhousing to the engine first, then install the tranny to the bell housing.

Those plastic shafts are not always perfect. Hook up your clutch linkage & have someone push the clutch in while you wiggle the trans. I bet it will slip right in.

if its only 1/4" lacking, the splines have to be already engaged, unless the trans. isnt a match for the clutch/flywheel/engine. (because the splines are nearly 2" in engagement. maybe an issue with the throwout bearing running out of room against the clutch fingers; adjustment of the clutch freeplay on the linkage...?

No

1/4 inch sounds like the input shaft is not going into the pilot bushing. try installing the bell housing first then the trans. if that doesnt work you need to measure the depth from the inside of the pilot bushing to the trans.
you can use a pencil or something small to get the measurment to the face of the flywheel. with out the clutch put the bellhousing against the motor with a few bolts and measure from the flywheel to the mating surface of the bellhousing where the trans bolts. add the 2 together. then measure the distance from the trans surface to the end of the input shaft. this should tell you if there is a problem of the trans shaft being too long.
hope this helps

At one point I did this, what I did was take the plastic lay shaft, and placed a mark, where it went completely in. Next I took the bell housing off the transmission and inserted the transmission into the clutch and pilot bearing and made the same mark. Then the two marks where measured. I agree the lay shaft could be the problem, I was also wondering if the pilot bushing could be the problem?

I always have the bellhousing installed first, and I cut the heads off a couple bolts (I use old head bolts from a 235) and screw them into the bell hoousing. When you install the transmission the case of the trans slips over the bolts and will slide in exactly centered to the crankshaft pilot bearing (or bushing). Never have any trouble getting the transmission to go into place that way. I take a hacksaw and make slots in the headless bolts so they can be removed with a screwdriver.

I have installed transmissions several times using this excellent advice, works like a charm.

What chevman describes and Cosmo concurs-with is the best technique to consider when installing the SM420. It cost is minimal (cheap bolts work fine) and you can cut the heads off in a few minutes.

As you slide in the transmission, can easily rotate the output shaft/yoke on the transmission to align the splines on the front shaft to the splines on the clutch plate.

Be sure to check the fit of nose on the transmission's front-shaft with the pilot bushing (before installing the pilot bushing).

Alright GMCCAMRO man, I had been in the same situation couple of times one with my 52 AD when I swapped to 235 motor and original 4 speed trans and another time I was with the Jeep. Both the time my solution was if the clutch is aligned in the hole, the last 1/4 in inch you are not able to push because of the weight. The trick I used was to slide in a longer bolt and use impact wrench, it is slide in no time.

My 2 cents.

Ganesh

There are some things that have been mentioned but got missed. You did not say that this transmission was ever in this truck. You were also told that it was a transmission from a Camaro. About the time the Camaro came out GM started using a larger front bearing in their transmissions, subsequently it has a larger bearing retainer. It is a fact that the larger bearing retainer will not fit in the hole in the early bellhousings.
The bearing retainer is about 1/4 thick and will not let the transmission seat all the way into the bellhousing. This could be your problem.
Fred

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

I believe we have a winner here folks! Well done Fred!

Cosmo the man, where is the delete button to delete my comments, thatz why I am still Wrenchfetcher, didnot read all the comments

Ganesh

True this tranny has NOT been in this truck. But if the Camaro transmission had the 1/4 inch thicker bearing retainer, shouldn't this tranny go into the truck with less problems. As this tranny is from a 58 1/2 ton truck or there abouts? The Camaro tranny was in the truck at one time. But is no longer in my possession.

The transmission from the Camaro was the one in the truck when, I got the truck.

Measure the hole in the bellhousing and measure the diameter of the bearing retainer. If the bearing retainer is larger than the hole that you are trying to fit it in, it will not work. Many times parts get interchanged incorrectly even by reputable shops.
You obviously have not solved the problem, I was just offering a suggestion.
Fred

No I have not solved the problem, your suggestion was fine, I was just keeping anyone who cared informed. Your suggestion was sound in that it had a reason.

I remember one time i had a trans that had a longer input shaft than the original. the trans was rebuilt and the guy replaced the input shaft and it was longer and bottomed out. I had to cut about a 1/4 inch off. may not be your case but thats why i suggested mesuring. also make sure the throwout bearing slides over the input shaft completely. another thing to check is how far the clutch goes on the input shaft. do the splines allow the trans to go all the way in or are they stopping the trans from seating. i always found to go back to the easy stuff first. sometimes you start looking to hard and miss the simple things

The input shaft should stick out 6 5/8 of an inch. It should be 10 spline on 1 1/8 diameter. The very tip of the transmission should be 0.590 inch, and the bearing retainer itself should be 4.686 inches in diameter.

Is this a 3 or 4 speed transmission? If it is a 4 speed, is it a top loading/shifting transmission, or sideshifting transmission?

The reason I ask these questions is there are two 4 speeds that look a lot alike, the sm420 and the sm465. The sm465 has a larger bearing retainer as discussed. It would measure 5.125 inches in diameter.

It's a 3 Speed. Just as an update. I like doing things with local businesses. So the guy who rebuilt is on vacation (he's retired?, and I thought vacations were practice retirements), he's coming to my house on Thursday to look at everything and make an assessment.

Update::::::::::

They are fighting together, just like your typical American couple.

The problem was the old pilot bushing was still in the crank and was not seen because of the color. It is the old variety with immersed oil, so it was not found. And yes, because of that I have been nominated for my third idiot of the year.

I and others were looking for the bronzeish color.