The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Water pump adapter

Thanks I think? I thought I read all about these oil lines before. What about this picture: [img]http://ares.cs.siena.edu/~lederman/truck/Documents/fullflowsetup.JPG[/img]

I thought it was the correct way? Help before I ruin another rebuild!!!

Interesting! I got the same manual and never thought about the arrows.

Let's wait for other comments, just to be on the safe side, but I own a 1948 216, 1962 235 and 1962 261 and all have the oil filter send outlet on the same spot.
Or so I thought.
Maybe the full flow 261 with the diverter plug goes in the other direction.

My oil pan is all sealed and buttoned up, so I can't look inside right now to confirm oil flow after the oil pump.

Here is a picture link of my engine with the oil pan off: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2524218120080243953iDIpGT

I think I had it wrong when this picture was taken. However it shows the oil line coming directly from the oil pump. I would guess that would be the supply line to the oil filter.

Anyone? Help...

Humm.....I've got mine plumbed the same way as yours (Virginiafiretruck).....have close to 2000 miles on the engine....oil pressure is 25 at hot idle, 45 psi at 2000 (cruise) rpm's. I've cut my filters open to examine for FOD....some paint chips between outer tin case and filter media. On the 235, the passage from the pump to the gallery was plugged and according to my engine builder, the flow is directed from the front (new) port to the filter and back to the rear (enlarged) port and to the bearings.

I added an idiot light switch that goes to a buzzer to give me instant warning if I have a catastrophic line failure while under way. It sounds when the ignition is switched on and goes out instantly when the engine fires.

If anyone out there has information contrary to my hookup I sure would appreciate a "heads up!"

Dave

Great - looks like I got it all wrong and on the full flow 261 the oil pump goes straight to the diverter plug first, then the filter and only then into the gallery.

I am used to the 216 and 235 bypass filters, which are connected the other way around for flow, if you just look from the outside.

Sorry about the false warning !!


I am so glad I looked at your pics, Virginiafiretruck...
In the next couple of weeks I was planning on breaking in my new 261 ..

I'm never sure about anything with this old truck. I have a water pump problem that I've got to fix so atleast we've got the oil line thing beat(maybe) :-)

My bad - Don't worry about your oil lines.
You helped me by posting your photos.

I never installed this kind of adapter plate, but looking at the photo, it looks like you used enough sealant, but may have torqued it tight before it dried.

I would go with the most durable high temp gasket sealant, apply just enough but not too much to both surfaces, let dry until it just stops sticking to the finger and then bolt it down and let dry over night at least before starting the engine.


Never ever get discouraged.
Thanks to this site we never ever end up on a dead end street, ditching the truck...

Your truck will run as reliable as anything you can imagine.
And when it does you will not have the words how that feels.

I love to open my hood only for cleaning and enjoyment or that bi-annual oil change.
Just did my cold-season change this afternoon....

Well it leaked again... Ran without leaking for about two minutes then started flowing from behind the adapter plate top. Man I hate this... But I'm learning more everyday!

I removed it one more time. BTW: It had 30 psi on the oil pressure gage!

i installed the short shaft water pump this afternoon just to get it running again. Pictures: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2318769830080243953zVXDnf

I'll get it running on Monday once I let it all dry out!

I noticed on your picture of the adaptor/pump assembly after you removed it, that you were using some bolts with what appeared to be very large heads. The right hand bolt head in particular, has one of the points protruding out over the edge of the plate. If this is the case, it would prevent the plate from seating tightly against the block.

On my adaptor plate installs, I use a standard 3/8" bolt which has a 9/16 head and there is no interference with the lip of the block. In fact, when you are ready to install the pump/adaptor combo, the bolt heads are inside the block and sit on the lip of the block and make it easier to start all your bolts that secure the pump to the block. I hope this helps with your install.

Dave

You are correct. Those bolts are bigger than the originals. But I thought they sit in the big circle and do not make contact with anything but water. I'll look at it again because I really want to use the adapter plate, fan and shroud that I've already purchased. I put the short shaft on because I want to test the motor and parts before it starts to rain around here on a regular basis. Once winter rains show up and I can't drive it, I'll go back and try the adapter plate again. Its not to hot out this time of year so I might get away with it for a while.

Thanks for pointing out the big bolts and I'll get on that in the morning.

Bill

I'm going to take another look at installing the water pump adapter... It has been many months since I installed the short shaft pump but I clearly like the adapter method as I feel it would keep the truck cooler year round.

Any changes to the install in the past year? Any new advice before I take my running truck apart again? BTW: It does get hot in parades and heavy bumper to bumper traffic in the summer time. I've put about 1,300 milesn the truck since last October and it runs great except for the water temp issues.

Great to hear you're putting the miles on your truck and that it's time now to put the frosting on the cake and add the adaptor plate. For those of you who are just getting started on a restoration, the adaptor plate is used behind an early style water pump to eliminate some cooling issues when replacing an early 235 with one from a 1955 and up.

Having tried both, like so many others and finding that the pricey, so-called "short shaft" didn't address all the cooling and clearance issues, the adaptor plate addresses and corrects them all. First of all, and most importantly, it will raise the waterpump up so that it is centered on the radiator, uses the early style waterpump which can be purchased locally in both 3/8 and 5/8" belt widths, gives you the correct pulley size for correct pump rotation speed, gives you enough clearance to you can run a 6 blade 15" fan for increased air movement, eliminates fan blade clearance issues with the harmonic balancer/alternator/generator/AC compressor and eliminates cooling issues as a threat to your driving enjoyment.

After 5000 miles on my 54 truck with the adaptor plate and after purchasing a "short shaft" pump which didn't address ALL these issues, I feel safe to say that it is the BEST option when cooling your 1955 and up 235 engine in the AD truck.

I've got pictures of the plate, and the instruction sheet in my "Shoebox and Tips and Tricks" albums if you want to check out the installation instructions. Click on "full sized" so you can read the fine print. If you FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS to the letter, you can't go wrong.

And for those of you who are apprehensive about drilling and tapping the two little holes in your block....the adaptor plate serves as a guide so if you follow the directions you shouldn't encounter any problems with getting it properly located. You don't drill into the water jacket...and you tap the 3/8 coarse threads into a 5/16" hole. The block drills easily with a battery powered drill with sharp bits and you just need to make sure you drill the holes straight in. I've installed the plate in both an engine out of the truck and one in place with only the radiator removed. Of course it's easier with the sheetmetal removed.

Virginiafire truck, you just need to use common 3/8" bolts with the standard sized heads on the 2 bolts you use to bolt the pump to the plate. The heads on the bolts you used were for some reason, larger than standard heads and that's why your pump wouldn't fit into the block pump passage. Make sure you have the heads on the inside with the nuts on the outside of the pump. I've also found that if you use a longer 3/8" stud on the driver's side you can use it as a mounting point for your alt/gen belt tensioning bracket. I would also suggest using #2 permatex on the gasket surfaces and not RVT.

I added a 6 blade 15" fan (Summit FLX-1615P @ $24.95) with CENTER-MOUNTED blades that moves a tremendous amount of air at lower speeds and gives you 5/8" clearance from the radiator. The center 5/8" hole needs to be filed out to 1" to fit over the early pump snout and if your scribe a fine circle, you can keep run-out to a minimum. I've idled my truck for 30 minutes with the outside temperature at 90 degrees and my temp stays at 180, which is my thermostat rating. BTW....I use a 7 pound radiator cap and never have had my 25/75 coolant dump into my coolant recovery tank. Fill the radiator so that the coolant just covers the core....no need to fill it all the way up to the neck.

It sounds like you're having a great time with your truck and once you get your cooling issues under control you can quit watching the temp gauge and really enjoy the driving.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for your excellent photos of installation of the plate. I'll be doing the conversion/installation in early August on a 1960 261 that will go into my 1954 Suburban.

In the heat of the summer, when idling in slow traffic, it used to get close to overheating. I hope this helps. I think my wide diameter water-pump pulley might have also contributed to the overheating.

Tim

Hi Tim,

I'm running a 1/2" V-belt in the 3/8" pump pulley and in a 2 groove modified 250 balancer. Have found that running a 7 pound cap and not overfilling the radiator works better than topping it off and trying to run a 13 pound cap.

I added a pusher fan for the a/c unit in slow heavy traffic conditions, but haven't found I needed it. I would imagine you could probably go up to a 17 or 18" fan with that same blade mounting configuration, if you felt the need, especially on a larger vehicle like his firetruck.

Dave

Thanks. I have the 15" fan flex blade(the same one you have). the only problem I had with the adapter plate was it leaked behind it between the plate and the motor head/block.

I'm going to give it another shot and we'll see how it works out this time around. Since I already have all the necessary parts, why not?

As an update: As I wrote above, I have all the parts so I'm going to give this one more shot.

I have taken the water pump out of the firetruck to put in the water pump adapter plate. I've discovered my adapter plate is bent at the right drilled hole and that is where it leaks so I'm ordering a replacement. So I guess my question is about the installation. Do you all use a gasket on the adapter plate AND water pump or permatex or RTV? What about the studs vs. bolts to mount the adapter plate?

I'm going to try this one more time. So for those who have successfully done this: Help???

On my installation(s) I used both the gasket supplied with the adaptor plate as well as the gasket that came with the pump. As for the sealer, I prefer a light coating of #2 Permatex on both side of the gaskets and if you have room between the fan and radiator I would use 3/8 studs in the holes you threaded in the block. If you don't have sufficient fan/radiator clearance to slide the pump/adaptor plate over the studs, I would use bolts with some anti-seize. Having to pull the radiator to change out a pump/belt would be counter-productive.

If you use studs, I'd use thread lock in both the holes you tapped and you might find that you could use the stud as a mounting point for your alternator/generator bracket.

Dave

Follow Dave's instructions.

- place a gasket on both sides of the plate
- use a light coating of sealer on both sides of both gaskets
- use thread locker (sealer type) on the bolts/studs in the holes you drilled

I received no instructions with the two plates that I bought off eBay. A different vendor kindly sent instructions that were quite good for the drilling BUT the instructions said that gaskets and gasket-seal were optional. It took three tries installing the assembly, filling the cooling system, and finding very small leaks - after four tries there were no leaks: (1) no gasket and a little sealer, (2) one gasket and a little sealer, (3) two gaskets with small amount of sealer on both sides of the gaskets.

Good luck.

Thanks for the comments and help. I'm going to get this right if it kills me!!! Anyway I'm taking my time to get it right so any comments are welcome.

I'm talking with Dave and I'm getting a replacement adapter plate from him. FYI: I'm not blaming anyone but somehow, I'm missing a very obvious point in this process of installing this plate and not having it leak. I don't get the gasket part. Dave has been great with his time to help me. I'm the one missing the boat some how... I'm going to get this right if it kills me.

Look at these 12 pictures and add any thoughts you might have. Link: Water Pump Adapter

That makes perfect sense to me, a gastet on both sides and light coating of permatex #2 applied with a finger to both sides of the gaskets.

Permatex #2 is great stuff, and a gasket is sitll required.

Grigg

I agree with all of you. However take a look at this picture as it shows the originial gasket that came with the water pump: Gasket doesn't fit

I saved that gasket because I couldn't figure out why I would use a gasket that only covers half the water pump. I have considered creating my own that covers the rear of the water pump completely except for the outlets and bolt holes. Thoughts or ideas?

That gasket does look wrong, at the least its confusing...

I've found the gasket in the picture is for a 1941 to 1954 235 block and is the correct one. However for the life of me, I can't figure out how it goes with the adapter and my 261 block.

I do not get it, either. It's only been a year since I did this on two 261 engines but my memory is bad.

I just now checked for photos of the back of my 1954 water pump but I do not have any photos. Was there a gasket between the old-style water pump and the old-style plate on the back of that water pump? That is the gasket that you need.

You do not use the old style water-pump to head half-gasket. On the head side of the plate, you use the gasket for the newer style pump-to-head (to seal the hole in the head).

Thanks. I've ordered extra gaskets of both types and I have flat sheets of gasket paper so I'm going to make something fit.

Is that water pump supposed to have a plate on the back of it to match up to the gasket?

There was one that came with it that covered the entire pump. The directions say to "remove the metal plate and discard it but keep the gasket." I followed the directions...

- you will be using an old-style pump with old-style plate removed

- seal the old-style pump to the new adapter plate using the gasket for the old-style pump to old-style plate

- seal the new adapter plate to the block using the new style water pump to block gasket

I've read this entire thread, and I'm a little confused. I have a '60 261 that I'm going to be putting in my '52 burb. I know I need the water pump adapter plate. What I'm confused about is whether I use the 261 water pump or do I use the 216 pump. I think from what I've read I use the 216 pump. Now, with the 216 pump I need a different balancer. So, can I use the balancer from the 216 or will I need a different one? I don't want to hijack the tread but there is a lot of knowledge here. Thanks

1. You use an old-style pump: for a 1955-1st or older 216/235/261 (different width pulleys/belts in different years - check Jim Carter's catalog for years)

2. You may use whatever 216/235/261 harmonic balancer that fits the end of the crankshaft (and has the pulley/belt width that you want).

Tim, Thanks.

I do not mind as I'm learning too!

Just a reminder....make sure that the 2 bolts you use to bolt the pump to the plate have standard sized heads with the nuts on the outside. (Visible from front of the vehicle)

If I remember correctly, you used some bolts with larger heads and they interfered with the plate laying up against the block. When you tightened down the outer bolts, it bent the plate.

Dave

Some of This is new to me also. Iv heard that some of the harmonic balancers are different diameters,,old vs. new.
Thats supposedly where heating probs. come from,,,the pump spinning too fast?
Does anyone know the proper combination of diameters,balancer w/ water pump pulley?
Theres been lots of posts here, and on other sites, with members going nuts trying to figure out their heating probs.
Thanx,

I'll post the directions on sizes that came with the adapter plate instructions. I'll go down to the shop later and get them.

Reading from the directions:

"It says: 1) 1941-52 harmonic balancer and waterpump for 5/8" belt or 1953-54 Harmonic balancer and waterpump for 3/8" belt. Note: For 3/8" belt an acceptable substitution is to use a 1955-62 truck balancer. it is designed for a 1/2" belt but maybe used with a 3/8" belt. This will allow the belt to run deeper in the groove and in affect will reduce the diameter to very near the correct size. 1937-40 Must use one of the above combinations

DO NOT USE: 1955-62 Passenger harmonic balancer, since the pulley has a larger diameter that will turn the pump and fan too fast."

I've measured the pulley that came with the 55-62 waterpump and it is 7". The pulley on the 54 waterpump is 4 1/4". So I guess the question must be asked what is the difference in size between a 55-62 passenger balancer and a 41-52 and a 53-54 truck balancer? Anyone measure those?

BTW: I'm still waiting for parts to arrive so I'm in a holding pattern until those things arrive on Friday.

1937-54 balancer pulleys are 6" diameter, 1955-62 are 6 3/4".

Thanks. Is there a differance in a truck or a 1955-62 Passenger balancer?

And I want to say "thank you" for this adapter as it looks to me to be the best method to put the fan in the proper position. I ran my truck for over a year with the low position water pump before this install started and I was never really happy with the cooling on really hot summer days. So I thought I'd take the time and put the adapter in.

I had it in place the other day and it ran inside a building for 30 minutes and NEVER went above 180 on the temp guage. It was leaking a little bit where I had bent it (with too much torque) but it still remained cool the entire time. I'm going to get this installed and up and running soon! I like the way it looks and works with my engine. It is very simple to install but I've just got a very small leak to fix. Anyway that is my fault. So thanks again for all your help!

Bill

The 1955-62 truck balancer pulley is the same diameter as the 55-62 passenger balancer pulley, but it is designed for a 1/2" belt instead of a 3/8" belt.