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Jul 21st, 2025 | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 |
Last edited by drummin52; 01/17/2009 2:01 AM.
| | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | And yes I am going to finish grinding down the welds on the inside and then paint. Trying to decide if I really need to weld in those gussets. I think it will be fine without it but I may just weld them in to be safe. | | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 | That looks nice. Don't think you need the gussets.
Do you have a picture of the alternator/generator bracket?
Will you have enough belt wrap on all the pulleys to transfer the power to them and from the crank pulley without the belt slipping?
Where did you have them cut? I'm currently looking for a company who can accurately cut some stainless sheet and hopefully laser engrave it as well.
Thanks,
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | the alternator bracket will look something like this http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/rockfan1815/alternatorbracket.jpg Basically picture that you are standing in front of the truck looking at the engine, holding the bracket as its positioned in the rendering. The tab on the right with the 3/8" hole will be bolted to the head. see this picture http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/rockfan1815/PIC00007a.jpg I will do as I am for the p/s pump and use right and left threaded rod and a coupling for the other mount and to adjust tension on the belt. It might possibly hold a generator but Im not 100% positive. Fla54Chevy3100's version might work better as it uses the coolant neck mounting holes on the head. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2989145720090459121eNtSyv I could draw up the plans to do the same thing if someone wanted them. The only thing im not sure of is if the generator will fit in the space, if its to long it might hit the distributor. I have a generator here, when it warms up I will go see if its possible. Looking at it I see no problem with not enough belt touching the pulley. Doesn't take much to add a idler pulley to bring the belt around the pulley more if needed. I got the pieces cut out from a place here in PA called laserfab http://www.laserfab.net/ I just did a search on google for laser cutting service. This will also locate local services http://www.thomasnet.com/products/laser-cutting-services-43277201-1.html
Last edited by drummin52; 01/17/2009 2:02 PM.
| | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Im waiting on my alternator bracket pieces and then I can get everything assembled. I will post pictures of the finished product when done. | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 |
Last edited by drummin52; 01/20/2009 1:08 AM.
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 | No pictures under your links..? | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,859 Grumpy old guy playing with trucks, cars, and boats | | Grumpy old guy playing with trucks, cars, and boats Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,859 | Chris,
From the pics, looks great. Last post full of links doesnt work, however the others do.
Scott
The problems we face today can not be addressed at the same level of intelligence we were at when we created them - Albert Einstein Or with the same level of $ - Me
| | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | would there be much interest if I designed a set of brackets to mount both the alternator and power steering pump on the driver side???
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 | I think you'll find interest for a combined alternator and PS pump bracket, as I don't know of a production bracket or set of brackets to allow PS on a 235/261. If you do make one I think you will run into belt slipping problems if you don't provide more belt wrap/contact on the pulleys. I know I had a somewhat difficult time keeping my belts from slipping when I piggy backed the PS pump on my generator. Like this: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1484181889080251109UpSqhHhttp://rides.webshots.com/photo/1484223987080251109mvGaMxIn that case the fan belt was as original with let's guess at 100 degrees of belt contact. With the added load of the PS pump also being driven by the fan belt on the generator pulley it liked to slip the fan belt if not kept tight and clean. You might want to consider adding an idler pulley similar to what I did here: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2724272330080251109JbMOHuI did it to keep the PS belt off the air compressor, but it also ads more belt contact to the pulleys, which is what you'll be after. Grigg | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Im going to see what I can come up with but its going to be tight. That is why I'm moving the alternator over to the passenger side. I have yet to see if a generator will fit on the passenger side but I will eventually get around to it.
Im expecting that I may need to add a idler pulley but not sure exactly where I would add it, these engines don't have alot of mounting holes on the front so it will surely be fun. Probably would be best to add a spring loaded idler to keep tension on the belt at all times. | | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 | I'm guessing the idler needs to be in between the generator and PS pump, but closer to the block. Not sure if there is room for a spring loaded one in there, but that would be nice.
Ideally the idler would be mounted as part of the bracket you build to hold both the generator/alternator and the PS pump.
The idler I used was the cheapest one I could find at the auto parts store, it is also readily available and about the size I needed. Then it's easy to get and replace if needed.
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | would there be any problem with running the power steering pump off of the alternator/generator? The fact that the pulley on the alt/gen is half the size of the pulley on the p/s pump. On most vehicles the p/s pump pulley is a bit smaller or the same size as the crankshaft pulley. | | | | | Joined: May 2006 Posts: 166 Wrench Fetcher | | Wrench Fetcher Joined: May 2006 Posts: 166 | I can't tell you how well it works, but this is an alternator compresor setup on the driver's side. 235 brackets I like what you are doing and am looking for answers as well. I will be interested in what you come up with. I think it would be best to mount both the alternator and PS pump on the driver's side somehome. That would leave the passenger side available for a compressor possibly. Here are a couple of pictures of my engine. Engine 1 Engine 2 It is a 1957 truck 235. I have since added a balancer from a 250 with 2 grooves cut into it. It has the possiblity of adding a 3rd groove by bolting a pully to the front if there is space. I have added the front plate and the 53 style water pump. My priorities are the alternater then the PS pump then the compressor. The engine is in my father-in-law's shop in Nebraska. I will hopefully pick it up in June. He has been a great help in building it for me, but I am anxious to get it itto my hands and hopefully work on some of these issues. I have saved this as a favorite thread to watch. Todd Maxwell | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Now this is going to be the interesting part of coming up with a power steering pump bracket for these inlines. I see that the mounting location for the alt/gen on the later 235's changed from the earlier years. I might have to take a walk throught the local yard that has a few of these motors and take some measurements.
Heres a question, is it possible to change out the first two head mounting bolts to studs on the drivers side? I was thinking I could come off of those two studs with a bracket that would hold the p/s pump. And then drive it off of a second pulley on the alt/gen. That is if it doesn't matter that the pulley is half the size of the p/s pump pulley. | | | | | Joined: May 2006 Posts: 166 Wrench Fetcher | | Wrench Fetcher Joined: May 2006 Posts: 166 | If you look at picture of Engine 1 in my above post, there are 2 studs exactly where you suggest. One is holding the metal tab for lifting the engine. Here is another picture with the metal tab removed. Engine 3 These were on my 57 truck motor when we found it. It had no bracket or anything attached to it, but there were 2 studs there. That is where I figured a second bracket could be installed. I have wondered about installing an alternator up high with 2 pulleys and then the PS pump below it off of the second groove in the alternator. As long as both grooves are the same diameter on the alternator, the belt will be traveleing the same speed as if the PS pump was driven off the crank. I didn't know about the load on the alternator shaft, but otherwise it could work.
Last edited by Todd M; 01/21/2009 2:26 AM.
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 | If you piggyback the PS pump off the alternator pulley so long as both groves on the alternator pulley are the same it has no effect on the math.
The PS pump will turn just as fast or slow as it would if it were belt driven directly off the crankshaft pulley.
I had some difficulty with the fan belt wanting to slip on the alternator pulley with the setup you describe. If the alternator pulley were bigger that would help..
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | I think the best route would be to mount the p/s pump down low and the alternator up high. Then run the alternator off of the power steering pump with a dual groove pulley. A few problems with this route would be 1, higher cost as you would need two brackets and 2, it probably wouldn't be usable with a generator.
I enjoyed designing and coming up with the p/s pump bracket and alternator bracket that I will be using on my 235 so maybe I will come up with a couple different versions.
Heres what I need some help with if anyone can. I need some measurements. This is for the later 235's. I need to know
1. the distance from center to center of the gen/alt mounting holes on the side of the block and what size they are
2. the distance from the center of the first mounting gen/alt mounting hole to the face of the block
3. the width of the crank pulley. not the whole assembly just the pulley itself. (width of the belt plus the edge on each side)
4. the distance from the center of the crank pulley to the face of the block
*****3 and 4 can also be the water pump pulley*******
5. the diameter of the crank pulley
6. the width of the face of the block
7. the distance from center to center of the two front head bolts on the drivers side, and the size of the head bolts
8. the distance from the center of the first head bolt on the drivers side to the face of the block (probably should be from the same point as in 4
9. the distance from the center of either of the first two head bolts to the outer edge of the intake manifold
thanks
Last edited by drummin52; 01/22/2009 2:17 PM.
| | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | once I get these measurements it will take me maybe 15-25 minutes to draw up both brackets on AutoCAD and then another 20 minutes to put them into 3d to make sure they will work. Then maybe two days to get a quote to have them laser cut out of 1/4 mild steel. I love having autocad, 100 times better than manually drawing, if a measurement is off, I usually will see in the process of drawing it.
Another question. Do you think 1/4" is more than needed, would 3/16" be sufficient enough?
Im going to be going to the local yard this coming weekend and comparing GM and dodge pumps. From what I can see they are exactly the same aside from a few things. I just want to make sure the width of the pump where it mounts is the same.
Last edited by drummin52; 01/21/2009 5:04 AM.
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 | The pumps you're looking at are the same, they are called "Saginaw P pumps" also used on some IH trucks. You'll need for find a PS pump pulley, and also find out what it's used for so the setup can be duplicated. You should be able to use a lot of 3/16" material, but may need some 1/4" depending on design. I like your idea to drive the PS pump, then piggy back the alternator, shouldn't have problems with the belt slipping. IF you don't have room for the PS reservoir then you could use one with a remote reservoir, http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1484223987080251109mvGaMxGrigg | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Im not completely sure of the differences between the 216, 235 and 261 but would it be possible to just have two sets of brackets, 1 for the 216 and early 235 and another for the later 235 and 261.
If I can get measurements of the 3 series that would be great. I have the early 235 covered as mine is a 54, which I imagine would work for the 216 so I need the later 235 and 261. | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Possible? http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/rockfan1815/alternatormountdriverside.jpgI imagine there would need to be some type of bracket that comes from underneath from say one of the water pump bolts. It looks like it will be very tight and a pump with remote reservoir may be required, but Im not 100% sure on that, I don't have the inner fender in at the moment and the p/s pump maybe able to move some more yet. | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 |
Last edited by drummin52; 01/24/2009 1:53 AM.
| | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | | | | | | Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 1 New Guy | | New Guy Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 1 | I have read your posts, and I have a similar problem and I am wondering if your patern is the same as a 302 Jimmy. I am putting a rather warm 302 Jimmy in a 51 Henry J. I have used a 94 S-10 frame and want to use the power steering. There is not alot of room and I will need to keep the pump on the alt side. Any suggestions? Can I obtain a cpoy of your drawings with measurments? I am new to the 6's, so this is new territory.
Thanks in advance
Jud | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | got any pictures of where the pump would need to mounted so I can determine if my bracket would work? | | | | | Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 117 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 117 | hey chris when do you want me to start lasering the parts out, i saved some 1/4 inch material and i think 3/16 would work good too , mick
care to chat write back
| | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | OK Mickster is going to help me out by cutting out the alternator mount so I could let everyone see how it will work/look.
This alternator mount will work for the later 235's as the cylinder head is the same. The lower power steering mount will only work for the 216 and early 235. I need someone to help me out and get me some measurements from a later 235 (55-62) and a 261. I need to know:
1. the distance from center to center of the gen/alt mounting holes on the side of the block and what size they are
2. the distance from the center of the first mounting gen/alt mounting hole to the face of the block
3. the width of the crank pulley. not the whole assembly just the pulley itself. (width of the belt plus the edge on each side)
4. the distance from the center of the crank pulley to the face of the block
*****3 and 4 can also be the water pump pulley*******
5. the diameter of the crank pulley
6. the width of the face of the block
Thanks | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Also Im thinking that a heat shield or some type of heat wrap will be needed on the first section of the exhaust manifold/header that is closest to the alternator so the heat will not damage the alt. I have clifford tube style headers so I will most likely be using some type of heat wrap. | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Once I know it works the brackets will be available to those who want them. So far as I have not got any measurements for the later 235's and 261's yet, the bracket set will work for the 216 and early 235 (up to 1954). With the cost of getting the pieces cut out, welded together and such the set will run about $150. This is only a estimated cost.
So far the parts list is:
- a dodge power steering pump off of a dodge pickup, any year should work up to the year they switched to a serpentine belt setup. They are called a Saginaw P pump, commonly called a "canned ham pump" as the shape is very similar to a canned ham. A later pump may work as long as the shaft diameter did not change as it must be able to accept a dual groove v-belt pulley
- a dual groove V-belt pulley off of a GM truck, basically up to the last year until they switched to serpentine belt setups
I also found out that if you are going with a GM power steering box that mounts on the outside of the frame rail, that the pressure hose from the same dodge that you got the pump off will connect to the GM p/s box, but not the other way around. A GM pump has a different size fitting for the pump end and will not work with the dodge pump. | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | I know I'm throwing a lot out right now but I will add
I went with a dodge pump because all the GM pumps that I looked at did not have the mounting holes where I wanted them. As you can see with the dodge pump that I have, the two bolt holes that the mount uses are towards the engine block. These bolts are in the same location on both sides so both tabs on the mount are exactly the same. On a GM pump, the two bolt holes that line up like that are on the side away from the engine block which would not have worked with my design.
Did I loose anyone??? | | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,877 | I thought the pumps were the same for both GM and Dodge? Possibly with the different fittings, but that's no problem.
I'll take a look at the few I have.
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | Size and shape they are exactly the same. The differences are the pressure hose fitting size (dodge is smaller) and the mounting hole locations (at least the ones I mentioned in my previous post).
At least the pumps out of 80's Dodge's and GM's have these differences. The yard I go to has mainly 80's and 90's vehicles. Sometimes a bit older and some newer if your lucky. | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | anyone know where I can get two head bolt studs just like what Todd M has on his 235. I need them so I can test the upper alternator bracket when I get it.
Still needing these measurements off of a later (55 and up) 235 and 261
1. the distance from center to center of the gen/alt mounting holes on the side of the block and what size they are
2. the distance from the center of the first mounting gen/alt mounting hole to the face of the block
3. the width of the crank pulley. not the whole assembly just the pulley itself. (width of the belt plus the edge on each side)
4. the distance from the center of the crank pulley to the face of the block
*****3 and 4 can also be the water pump pulley*******
5. the diameter of the crank pulley
6. the width of the face of the block | | | | | Joined: May 2006 Posts: 166 Wrench Fetcher | | Wrench Fetcher Joined: May 2006 Posts: 166 | Have you tried Patricks? Patricks | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | | | | | | Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 610 | I didn't see any head bolt studs on their website so I will call. Will any later model engines work. Local yard has lots of later model inlines. | | |
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