The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Can I get rid of all this pollution control crap?

Gentlemen,

It's not a stovebolt, but I seek your advice/ instruction. Just got an '85 Suburban. Runs nice & smooth, but drinks gas. When you open the hood, you can hardly see the engine for all the vacuum hoses and wires. The deals that come up from the exhaust manifolds have already been plugged, and most of the hoses are missing from the Evaporative Canister. There are some stray vacuum hoses and wires the function of which I don't know. Is it advisable to just junk all the pollution controls, rip out all the vacuum hoses and plug everything up? Will this increase my power/ fuel efficiency? If yes, how should I go about doing it? What should I leave on it? If nothing else, it would be nice to get all that clutter out of the engine bay. BTW, it has a 350 with 4-barrel carb and 4 speed auto trans. Thanks for any advice!

Tyler Watts

no and no

Bill

No, you won't improve performance, or gas mileage, by disabling emission controls. In some areas, where there are annual emission tests, you'll also be unable to get license plates with the emissions disabled, and there's still a Federal law on the books that provides for a $5,000.00 fine, and 5 years in jail, for every vehicle on which you disable the emission system.

The absolutely essential emission systems are the EGR valve, the PCV valve, and the electronic spark control system, if your vehicle has one. Others are the evaporative emission system, the catalytic converter, the Early Fuel Evaporative system (formerly the heat riser), and on some engines, a vacuum valve that switches the vacuum advance on and off according to engine temperature. Other vacuum systems control the lockup torque converter in the transmission, if the car has a Turbo 350C trans.

Bottom line- - - -find someone who knows what he's doing, and get the emission controls straightened out.
Jerry

If there are no pollution inspections in your area, you could retro to an early (75-80) distributor & carb. By just removing the stuff on it won't help unless you get rid of the feedback crap(carb & dizzy), it never worked even when new. I went to a bunch of classes in the mid 80s-90s to learn to attempt repairs on those ESC trucks. Of course this is all just theoretical, I have never actually done this to any vehicle but I do feel it is better to have a vehicle that runs correctly w/o pullution controls than one w/pollution controls that runs very poorly.
Brian

Brian, I made a pretty good living in the 80's and 90's fixing feedback systems that other mechanics couldn't (or wouldn't) repair. I also taught a new generation of trainees not to badmouth the stuff, just learn to work with it, and make it run the way it was designed.

We're into the third generation of feedback systems now, and they're MUCH more sophisticated than those early electronic-controlled carburetors. My son just completed GM technicians' school, with a straight-A average, so he's following the family tradition of going to the top of the mechanics' trade. My father started repairing cars in 1939, and ran the shop in Nashville, Tennessee in the 50's and 60's with the top technicians in the city, so that's the only way I've ever known to fix cars. No shadetree wrench jockeys in our family!
Jerry

The BEST way to get rid of ALL the emissions crap is to DUMP that 85, Suburban and get a REAL stovebolt. Problem solved.

You say it runs nice and smooth but uses a lot of fuel.5000 lbs vehicles with the aerodynamics of a brick will do that to ya.

Sorry Jerry I didn't mean to put you down, I'm sure you may be the only one who can fix that stuff, I'm glad you can. I doubt Mr Watts wants to drive to TN. Brian

You an trash it all but if it has the ESC distributor you will need to replace it with an older style hei.

OK, sounds like I shouldn't just dump the vacuum lines, but the thing is a mess and I don't know how to straighten it out. How about an aftermarket carb, like an Edelbrock performer? would that allow me to ditch all the vacuum stuff? What about the computer controls? There is no worry whatsoever about state inspection- the vehicle is registered out in the country, a county of about 1800 people. I'm not expecting a miracle, either, maybe 10 mpg city 15 mpg highway.

By the way, Tab, I have 3 "real" stovebolts ('45 G503, '52 3100, '53 3600) and my wife was very offended by your comment!

I am against aborting emission control devices. Our air quality is important but sometimes it is necessary. To put that system back in proper working order would be very difficult & costly. Finding a tech. that could & would do it would be nearly impossible. I would put a dist. & carb. from a late 70s similar engine or get a Edelbrock performer carb. You can still use the evaporator system & pcv system. I recomend an electric choke. Some states even waive the emission requirments on situations like that.

the only 2 vacuum lines you really need besides the big one for the PCv are the ones for the distributor and the heater vacuum controls we just got thru taking all the EXTRA PARTS off my father in laws 85 GMC you can actually see the engine now.

Wrenchbender speak truth.

Why on earth are you beating your head against the wall trying to make efficient, a vehicle that was designed from the factory to be inefficient? No offense but 80's GM products are crap. That's why so many of us here prefer the old trucks. The ONLY thing that that truck is good for is target practice.

I drove 80s GM vehicles for many years. I always got 200 to 250 thousand miles out of them. I think they were better than any other make from the same era.

That's not saying much. All Detroit iron in the late 70's and 80's sucked. The trucks were probably slightly better than the cars. Had Toyota and Honda imported a full sized pickup back then, The Big Three would have gone bust.

I would love for Toyota or Honda to import a full sized PU with a small, but torquey diesel. American auto makers only offer HUGE diesel motors in their trucks. Most people don't need all that power. Again, Detroit is dropping the ball. I believe that Honda will import a clean-burn diesel PU that gets 40mpg. I can't wait.

Just as a side note, I find certain ads these days for muscle cars kinda funny. I remember working on cars from the early '70s and the first thing everyone did was toss the early crude emission control devises. Now I see ads for these cars in "mint" condition advertising a selling feature like, "all smog intact". Who would have known those charcoal canisters would be worth money some day.
Steve O

There are warnings on this forum against flaming, but it would be difficult to give truthful answers to this thread without someone taking personal offence.
I may not always agree 100% with everything Hotrod Lincoln posts, he is 110% right-on, on this subject. Even his postscript "Ignorance can be fixed; stupid is forever!" is unfortunately dead on.
Fuel Economy:
The reality is that driving a 20 year old, 5000lb brick and expecting 15 mpg is expecting a miracle. Miracles do happen, but you need to do everything you can toward that miracle, instead of away from it. One example is that charcoal canister in the evaporator system. Your sub sits in your driveway on a hot day and the gas in the carb evaporates. It can go out into the air where your children breath it or it can go into the charcoal canister. The next time you start the motor, the vacuum source pulls that gas back out of the canister, into the carb and helps propel you down the road. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Split in Time:
Mid 80's emission systems were not junk. You may think that if you don't want to take the time to learn something. GM went about as far as it could with carburated systems. If you want to improve it, then move it into the 90's with fuel injection. Don't move back into the 70's that did have very primitive emission systems.
Educate Yourself:
Either buy a service manual for that sub or go to the public library. They will have manuals there that explain the different systems and you can make photo copies.
Jap Cars Uugh:
Don't get me started on that one. You want to drive a jap car, drive it in japan. If we were to go to war today, in the Pacific, are you going to ask Honda-America to start building trucks for us? Are you going to ask Daimler-Chrysler to make tanks for us so we can fight in Europe. We don't make cars here anymore because you don't buy cars from here.
New Slogan:
BUY AMERICAN; WHILE YOU STILL CAN

We have an '88 GMC Sub with a 350 and couldn't be happier. Runs like brand new with over 226K on it. Gas milage is OK - right around 13 mpg.

However, we also have a '76 Blazer with a NEW crate 350 (less than 20k on it) that gets 7-8 mpg! I've quit driving the Blazer entirely - hoping to find a rod prospect for the engine and drivetrain (I don't care if a rod gets 8 mpg).

As Richard says, get yourself a service manual. We've got a Haynes, and it has been a lifesaver for me in the garage. I'm assuming you did all the obvious things already, so I'll just wish you good luck!

A GM service rep told a class of us in 86 or 87 at the GM training center in Memphis that the spark knock on acceleration in ESC trucks could not be remedied. Hard starting when hot also was a design feature. Simply a case of the computer not having enough brains to properly control the engine. Add the fact that many of the pollution control devices(delay valve, thermo switches) on 82-86 GM trucks are obsolete. I don't FEEL ignorant nor stupid. On this particular model it will run better & cleaner w/o some of that stuff. They had an impossible advance curve & usually run very rich when there is any failure. Anyone priced a feedback rebuilt carb? On a 20 year old vehicle it doesn't make sense to spend a small fortune & still have it run poorly, so get it running the best you can reasonably. Much cheaper for aftermarket carb & old style dizzy. Injection would be best, but a costly option. We have no inspections whatsoever here, if it moves at all you can drive it.(and people DO, my favorite is the Ford van that has been driving past my house for 2 years completely missing a spark plug.) Brian

13mpg is not "OK". Our troops are dying in Iraq so that we can keep the spigot open because the American people want to waste energy and pollute the air. Tomorrow will be a level RED ozone day in Dallas.

How many of you guys remember the Arab oil embargo of 72? Shortly thereafter President Carter led the nation toward energy independence. Ronald Reagan undid all of Carter's efforts. To this day, Detroit is building HUGE gas guzzlers that STILL get only 13mpg. Americans are of the mind that they would simply "fight for oil" rather than conserve. OK boys and girls, you got your wish. Now who among you will sacrifice a loved one so that we can drive a 5000lb V8 SUV down the road at 80mph?

i will be happy to start rationing gas again if the troops come home from bush's personal war.

oooo, politics and flaming. I agree with tab though, why not conserve? I don't know how all that emmisions stuff works, but why not keep it if it will help the enviroment.

It's one thing to drive a piece of history around every now and then but quite another to haul around 5000 lbs of steel with you EVERYWHERE you go. I guarantee that antique cars are NOT the reason our cities are choked with soot. I drive my stovebolt ONLY when I need a truck, otherwise I take my Honda car which gets 42+mpg or my Harley which gets 50mpg.

They should have taxed the crap out of gas 25 years ago and put the money into a national health care system. Now it's to late. All of the profits are going to the Bush Family and their Saudi partners in crime. That Saudi family is a scourge on the planet. BTW: Most of the 911 hijackers were Saudi.

There is going to be a world war over oil soon and I will tell you right now that NONE of my family is going to fight it. Your sons and daughters will be dying in the Mid East so that we can wast energy here at home. I'm going to watch the show on TV sucking a beer saying, "I told ya so."

If I may add a little gas to the fire...A biker that drives a Honda? No wonder I sence such inner conflict.I thought God made Honda bikes to keep yuppies off of Harleys.

Tab,
I appreciate your viewpoint, but it really is out of line in this forum. For your information, my family HAS fought in every war since WWII (including one POW in Germany) and served in every branch of the armed services, except the Coast Guard. They didn't sit at home watching TV saying "I told you so," so spare us the rally for the troops but fight the war speech, please.

You are welcome in North Dakota with your Honda or your motorcycle to share your ecoevangilism any time. I recommend mid-February when it is 60 below zero with three feet of snow on the ground. If your Honda gets stuck or your bike is too cold, I'll be happy to come get you, with my Sub. Until then, perhaps we should all attempt to stick to the topics at hand.

Well put Kim. This topic has gotten way out of hand. Lets stop arguing about politics, pollution, and foriegn cars and stick to Stovebolt subjects. If you can't do that, keep your biased opinions to yourself.

Phil

Kim:

Most people who drive guzzlers don't need them. You know that. Thou protests to much.

I grew up in Michigan.

It amazes me that the American people would rather go to war than change their lifestyle even slightly.
______________________

Folks with questions about their 85 Suburbans should Google the net and not post here.

I would have to agree somewhat with Toomany, that small crappy unsafe cars are not the best way to go like Tabs Honda for example.

The problem is that the new small cars of today or new anything from 1990s and up is way too complicated to fix, sure the junk gets over 25MPG but what good is it when you can't fix it yourself or uncle Bobs corner garage can't fix it either.
So then it costs you $500.00 or more every time your in the shop with a newer vehicle, unless you know someone who owns a garage with all the expensive computer junk to hook up to it, but even still the parts for the newer vehicles can cost you a bundle like all those retarded fuel pumps in the gas tank and ABS brakes, all that JUNK did not exist in the 1980s.

No Tab your wrong, the 1980s were the good old days, go watch that movie called Roger and Me and tell me if anything is better today at GM then it was 15 or 20 years ago.?
Its not its worse back then you had a few hoses and vacum lines to contend with on a 1985 GMC truck all you needed to do is rip the stuff out and put older parts on like Carb and distr problem solved your ok again, ever try to rip out ABS brakes or rip out a black box on a 2005.?

So what happens is you lose money on the mantanince and repair of the newer vehicles when something packs up in them.
I would rather pollute up the air then pay some syster machanic or manufacurer/dealership to fix a newer vehicle for me.

Another thing is comfort I drive a fullsize GM customized van its around 5000lbs but it's smooth and comfortable compared to a minivan.
I have driven the minivans and there just a pile of junk a scam ,you feel every bump the ride is choppy, you can't haul anything, and you get 30 MPG so what.?

I got a 292 in my van with a late 1960 monojet carb on it getting around 17MPG, with OD in it,I could get over 20MPG, and that's the next project.

The answer is do not get a small car or truck to save fuel, instead go junk all the V8 smallblocks and get into a inline 6 engine 194 230 250 or 292 and put an OD transmission in then you can haul your 5000lb monsters around cheap, only thing is acceleration will be a little slower.

Around here I know lots of people with buses and vans full to the brim with GM 350 4 bolt main engines and they can't give them away anymore.

I love my Honda car. It gets consistently over 42mpg and has over 170,000 miles on it. Hondas are THE most reliable cars on the road. The darn thing never breaks.

The problem is that, like smoking in an enclosed space, driving an inefficient auto effects EVERYBODY. I like clean are and water and should some folks have to be slightly inconvenienced to achieve that goal, so be it.

Well thats your story about Honda, I got one too some time ago an older lady told me she purchased a brand new Honda Car and in the first or second year under 20,000 miles her tierod let loose and she went flying into the ditch.

Trying to compare your tiny cramped Honda car to a full size luxury GM truck or van is like trying to compare a pea to a grapefruit, it does not make any sense.

I was in Montana many years ago and time and time again I seen Ford truck after old Ford truck burning belching out oil like crazy.
The point is nobody in America cares about the environment why should they start now,? when now you have Mexico and China polluting worse then the USA ever did.

http://www.67-72chevytrucks.com


The section for 73-91 Suburbans

Oh boy......Get off the soapbox. My mom has all kinds of spine problems and STILL drives a small car. But handicapped people are not the pollution problem. You have not read my posts carefully.

There are several fuel efficient cars that are comfortable and spacious. The Honda Accord is one.

Okay okay for crying out loud.

What's the matter with you guys.

For crying out loud.

There's enough *good* information in there but I'm gonna lock this one down.

Geeze Louise people.

All of you. Outdoors. Get. Get. Go turn a wrench ...

I ain't got time for no fussing.

Mommy Dearest
GET!