The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop GM diesel in 1963 trucks

Hi

I have the 1963 Chevy GMC truck shop manual one from the factory not a reprint, and on page 6-115 I see that there was a 4 cyl inline diesel engine that was used in trucks a 4-53.

What I am trying to find out is was this used in GM light trucks up to one ton versions.?

If not would this engine bolt up to a normal say 350 or 400 turbo transmission or is it different.?

I don't know much about GM diesel engines except the newer ones after 1973 were all not so good, these old ones in 1963 I don't know much about.

A 4-53 would be a Detroit Diesel, a 2-cycle engine with a blower. (not a turbo). They're at least 250 pounds heavier than a stovebolt 6 and they have a very limited RPM range. (1,750 to 2,150) You'd need at least 6 speeds in the transmission, and 8 would be better. They're a great engine for a big boat, or an industrial application like a generator or water pump, but I don't think I'd want one in a truck. The 4-53 designation means 4 cylinders, 53 cubic inches per cylinder, so the displacement would be 212 cubic inches. Other Detroit engines had 71, or 92 cubes per cylinder, and were used in big trucks, cranes, construction equipment, Greyhound buses, etc.

The blower used on a lot of drag race engines was a 6-71, right off a Detroit Diesel! "Screamin' Jimmy" engines got their name from the fact they fired on every downstroke of the piston, and had those noisy Rootes-type blowers. They lose torque if they're lugged down, but as long as they're run wide open, right up against the governor, they do a lot of work.
Jerry

Hello,
If you want to put a detroit in a pickup you might want to call Adelmans truck parts in Canton OH. They had a bunch of govt surplus 353 motors w/chevy 4 spd trans. The 353 is will fit in a pickup without too much work. There not real powerful but will get 20+ mpg in a fullsize pu and will last darn near forever if you take care of em and don't lug it down....Mike

If I could find 353 engine with a trans, I pull that 235 out of my 3/4 ton truck in a New York second. This is EXACTLY what I've been wanting; a small diesel engine in my truck. I'm going to check out Adelman's.

Will this 353 engine you guys are talking about fit on a GM 400 turbo transmission? if not what transmission are you talking about.
What GM vehicles are those engines used in and the dates does anyone know.?
Is a 353 an inline engine or V8,?I never heard of it before, its all new to me and maybe others.

It would be an inline 3 cylinder of 53 C.I. per cylinder. An "A" series Cummins from an old UPS truck or from an old Onan generator would be a better engine, or look at Iveco diesels for a more modern engine.

Detroit Diesels are not very suitable as small or medium-duty truck engines. They're horrendously heavy. Even the 3 and 4 cylinder models will weigh much more than a stovebolt six, and when you get into the 6-cylinder models, they weigh more than twice as much. These things are best used as constant-speed industrial engines, doing things like running generators, pumps, welders, refrigeration plants, etc. The 6-71 is an inline 6-cylinder, 426 cubic inches, that was used in older Greyhound buses. The 8V-71 is a V-type engine with 568 cubic inches that's used in Kenworth, Peterbilt, Freightliner, etc. There's a 6V-92 and an 8V-92 that's used in big trucks, offroad construction equipment, and other heavy-duty applications. Detroits are identified by cylinder volume and number of cylinders, and the V-type engines have a "V" in the designation.

THEY ARE NOT PICKUP ENGINES!

The back of the block will accept various types of adapter rings for a bunch of bellhousings, including GM 4 and 5 speeds, Fuller Roadrangers, Spicers, Clarks, and other medium and heavy truck transmissions. Because they only run well through about a 400-RPM range, you need another gear every time the engine changes speed 400 RPM. That's why Roadrangers have 8 or 10 speeds, the Diesels need them to work their way up to highway speed. A pickup, or even a 1-ton with a Detroit engine would probably need an upgrade in the front axle and front spring capacity just to carry the weight around. It's definitely not a good candidate for a swap.
Jerry

Aside from the novelty factor, I can't think of any good reason to put a diesel into a stovebolt pickup. The 3 or 4 cylinder detroits aren't going to have enough horsepower to be worthwhile. You will need earplugs.

The 353 govt surplus engines that I have seen have aluminum blocks, Much lighter than cast iron. I have seen several installed in 3/4 ton trucks. There was a 74 chevy 3/4 ton 4wd with a cast iron 353 around here in the 80's . As I recall the owner told me all he did was add an extra leaf to the front springs, he also said it had about the same power as the old 6,but got 20mpg loaded. This conversion is not for a novice,you have to be able to weld and fabricate,but one good thing is that if you use a manual shut off and don't want a jake brake the only things you have to wire are the starter and alt. no computers or complicated wiring. One other thing is parts,Detroit parts while not cheap are considerably less than cat, cummins,isuzu and most other makes....Mike

My .02.....A great little durable diesel that I transplanted into an S 10 once is the Olds 4.3 V-6 diesel that was available in the Cutlasses and Monte Carlos in the early eighties, usually with a 200R4 behind them. Was a great engine with all of the recent problems with the 5.7 olds diesel addressed and corrected, but the earlier problems were still to fresh, so GM shelved the project after three years of slow sales. There was actually a hi-po version GM had planned that was running loe 1/4 mile times, though I cant recall the numbers. There's info out there if you Google it.

I believe there is a cummins 4BT version with a chevy bellhousing pattern, made as a direct replacement for bread trucks (like a small UPS truck), I know lots of guys snapping them up for Landcruiser conversions.

Chris

I've got 5 of those Onan/Cummins engines. They're inline 6-cylinder Turbo Diesels with mounts like a 292. They're rated at 120 HP @ 3,600 RPM. I've confirmed the power rating on my dyno. Mine came from a UPS retro-fit to a different diesel engine. The bellhousing is the late-50's Chevy/GMC hydraulic clutch setup with the throwout fork on the passenger's side, with a 12" Chevy clutch. Any Chevy-pattern standard transmission will bolt up, and I believe a Chevy-pattern automatic could be adapted with a little tinkering. I'm planning to install one of them in a Ford F-350 flatbed I'm reworking, and possibly build a stovebolt with another one.

[img]http://www.freepichosting.com/Thumbs/421548814/30/1.jpg[/img]

Jerry

What does a guy have to pay for one of those Onan/ Cummins engines? Where should begin my search for one? This sounds to good to be true.

Hotrod Lincoln: When can I bring my 62, 3/4 ton over for the diesel conversion? :•D

I have a 1 ton 52 chevy that I will swap in a 4-53T from my 1 ton 73 chevy.

The 73 got the Diesel in late 73 and has had about a half a million miles put on it, 450,000 before the first rebuild.

It has a turbocharger as well as the required supercharger and should put out about 175HP at 2500 or 2800 rpms.

It also has a Jake brake.

If any one wants the left over 73 pickup after I remove the engine let me know, I will probably drive it for a year or so before I pull it, but if you make me a good deal I could pull it sooner.

I have seen the aluminum 3-53 engines and considered one for a while, they even come with a version of the SM420, just a different cover. But from what I have heard they were one time use throw away engines with the alluminum blocks. But I suppose if the price is right and you had a few it would be worth it. Just don't try to make much HP or it won't hold together.

I have been planning this swap for about 3 years, and in my oppinion the 4-53T is the best choice for a Detroit in a pickup. Some people say it won't be worth it, but I like the idea and it will be different and fun to play with, and loud, but with good insulation in the cab and a nice muffler it should be driveable.

Grigg

Hey Hotrod that was good information on that engine 4BT you have in the pic, but it sounds like your contradicted yourself a bit, you said or implyed in a previous post that the diesel engines that we are talking about are not good to try to put in a pickup truck, then in your last post you now say that your putting the one you have in your pic in your Ford F-350.?

I have the same questions as TAB, were can I find that engine you have in your pic or a 4-53T and which one is better yours which is a cast block or the 4-53T that GRIGG is talking about.??

I have tryed a few truck places today and have had no luck nobodys even heard of them, this diesel engine stuff must be an even bigger secret then the Watergate scandal was that took 30 years to solve.
This should not take that long to figure out thanks.

I said the 4-53 Detroit was a poor choice, because it's a 2-stroke with a very narrow power band. It's also much heavier than the Onan/Cummins in the picture. The Onan engine was inherited by Cummins when they bought Onan. It was developed as a power generator engine by Onan, and Cummins sold it to UPS as an alternate engine to the 292 Chevy and 300 Ford inline sixes they were running in their box trucks. These three engines were used interchangeably, with the same bellhousing, transmission, and clutch, all GM parts. I think the trans was a New Process 235 4-speed. The adapter ring on the Cummins has the Chevy V-8/292 bolt pattern. The Ford engine was used with an adapter plate for the GM bellhousing shape.

Unfortunately, Cummins was not able to supply spare engines in enough quantity to meet the UPS demand, so a retro-fit to a different medium-duty diesel was made. Since US does not sell their retired trucks for salvage, I think the purchase my friend and I made must have been a one-time deal with the local UPS shop. The engine will work well in a pickup or 1-ton because of its high RPM capability, (3,600 RPM) much higher than most industrial-rated diesels.
Jerry

Here is the link for the aluminum ones from the gamma Goats

http://adelmans.com/military.htm

A 3-53 would not gain you much power over the 6 cylinder gas, so I did not consider it for to long, if you are going to swap engines there should be some sort of benefit right?

If I was going to use a 3-53 I would look for a cast iron one first, actually more common, it's just the military aluminum ones are plentiful and cheep at the moment on the surplus market.

The 4-53T is, as you guessed, 4 cylinders but otherwise identical to the 3-53 three cylinder, just about 6" longer. The "T" after the numbers designates that it has a turbocharger. The 4-53 turbo is the highest HP 4-53 available. (the marine units should be more HP than the truck engines because they can take advantage of the abundant cooling and burn more fuel and still keep the engine cool.) So, the best bang for your buck, or 4-53, is with the turbo. I figured I was in no rush and I would just keep my eyes open for the 4-53T instead of swapping something else and then wishing I had found a 4-53T in the first place.

The Detroit probably won't compare with the new Diesel pickups for performance, but that's not the point. It'll be different, interesting, fun, and loud in a old Chevy.

4-53T engines are most commonly found in Chevy and GMC trucks of about 2 tons in the 70's and very early 80's. Don't be confused if you find one of the trucks in the 80's with a Detroit diesel but it is a V8 and called a "fuel pincher", that's a 4 cycle and not what you are looking for.

I priced a rebuilt one from Detroit, they wanted about $3,000 for a core charge and then about $9,000 or $11,000 before they would give you a rebuilt one, I forget how much exactly, but more than I though it was worth. A basic overhaul kit for the 4 cylinder runs around about $1,000, plus your labor.

This thread has sparked some firm opinions. I'm waiting for everyone to react to this:
I'm running the original 230 in my '63 half-ton. I've been thinking about converting to a deisel. I've been running bio-deisel (filtered french-fry grease, basically, that I buy from some ecology-minded long-haired individuals) in my old M-F tractor for a year now, and it does fine. Friends run bio-deisel in Mercedes and even in an '80's 4WD Ford conversion van. I want to set up my own bio-deisel making still (pretty easy; friends do it in their back yard.) It's all about not paying for gas, you see. Then I'll be running the tractor and hopefully the truck for less than half the price of gasoline, and have one less noxious chemical in my life.
Here's where it gets good: a buddy has an '87 Mercedes sedan with a busted front end but a solid drive-train, and we want to try to fit it into my '63 (trans and all).
I didn't know you others out there were thinking about deisel conversions, too. Other than Hot-Rod Lincoln's under-the-table UPS deal, this sounds like the best option.
If I run a Mercedes engine in a Chevy, am I still allowed to post here?
PS The best part of this scheme is that the A/C on the Merc allegedly still works.

Hello
I just bought a 1963 chevy shortbed stepside and it has a strait 6 in it. The casting number on the side of the block is 3994257. Does anyone know what kind of motor this is? I think it is either a 235 or a 292. Can anyone help?

Thanks

Anybody consider running a Cummins 4BTA under the hood of a 3100 series? I've found some on the internet with TH400 trannies - apparently with Chevy compatible motor mounts. Everything I've ever heard about them has been impressive. My wife's big Gen I 1 ton Dodge is pulling 18 mpg (city driving!) out of the related 6BT - and the truck weighs double what most vehicles do. I've heard gearing the 4BTA appropriately should result in 30+mpg, while hopping it up to 250 hp and ungodly levels of torque is possible as well.

DieselPower, I'd like to run one of those 4BTAs, but I can't find one at close to a reasonable price, could you point me in the direction of what you've found? PM me or give me an email address, I'm in Pensacola.

Chris

Well so far as usual nobody around here has heard of any of the two engines were taking about Hotrods 4BT or the 4-53T.

I will come across the 4-53 or 4-53T sooner or later on a farm somewhere but no farmer in his right mind would ever part with one of those untill they retire and then the Auction people come.
In the meantime if anyone can post a pic of a 4-53T out of a GMC truck that would be nice.?

As for the UPS version 4BT I do not know were to look for that one,? Did they use them in other GM vehicles like grumman or bread trucks or only in UPS trucks.?

Is Deisel Powers post true that a 4BT cummins gets 30MPG in a truck or van I don't believe it maybe more like 25MPG if that, a gasoline 292 engine can do close to that if geared right too.

As for price judging by what I have seen so far a good running stationary diesel inline engine gets around $1000.00 at farm Auctions that runs good.
A rebuildable core maybe should be $100 t0 $300 depending on the case.

chevyvan, at those prices for running I would snap one up in a heartbeat (I'm full of puns).

Hopefully DP can point us in the right direction.

I haven't seen a cheap cummins engine yet, but http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...9&category=50466&sspagename=WDVW seemed like a good price for the entire package. New or freshly reconditioned, they are usually very expensive - but very efficient. My VW TDI gets 40+ mpg - from an automatic. I had a MB 300SD that pulled 30 mpg - not bad for a big car. My wife's D350 pulls 18 mpg around town - and that thing will pull a house! Diesels are usually ~30% more efficient than gas motors. 35 mpg may be optimistic, especially if you still want some low end power. They make them for marine use as well as bread trucks.

I saw that one, I could not get the seller to respond to my emails. That would certainly be at the top end of my price range. I was hoping you knew of something a little closer to home.

Someone on another thread was doing MPG cost benefit analysis for swapping engines and my 400 small block with a built 700r4 behind it and 4.10 gears with 32 inch tall tires gets 15, 10 towing. It's hard to justify $2700+ shipping for diesel and 1/3 the hp.

I am a boat captain, I love diesel, smells like victory. My perkins powered work boat burns a whopping 1/2 gallon per hour at cruise and 1 gallon per hour WFO.


Chris

If you wanted to go cheap on this project, a nice 5 cylinder 81-85 Mercedes Turbodiesel would be the choice. You can pick up an old car fairly cheap and rip out the engine - mating it up might be a bit of a challenge, but those old 3 liter MB engines are pretty good. That's my Plan B... It won't tow as well, but it should rival the stock setup for power - and last forever.

That 4B can be built up for more power if you want. I think you'd be hard pressed to get the torque from the 400 SB that you could from a little Cummins. If you hadn't already repowered with the 400, it would be more cost effective...

How much torque is that cummins putting out and at what rpm? Its not that I want to go cheap (okay, yes I do), I just think $2700 is a lot of money for an engine I can't hear run, has no guarantee and was sold to me by someone 900 miles away. I could get a core and rebuild it for that or buy a 6BT with 100,000 miles on it.

If the seller on ebay had been within a days drive, I would have been much more interested at that price, but 900 miles is a long way if it wasn't what he said.


Everything I can find says the non aftercooled pump out about 300 ft-lbs and the aftercooled do about 375 ft-lbs. I'm pretty sure I'm getting more than that out of my 400 in my suburban and getting 15 mpg with a built 700r4 and 4.10 with 32 inch tall tire. I have another 400 sitting on a stand, same build, but they are like gold down here because of the racers, it could be gone quick for much more than I have in it and I could put that towards a diesel.

I have not dropped a motor in my 53, yet. I'd love a diesel, especially when towing a boat that's diesel.

I'm gonna look into the isuzu 4 that comes in those cabover flatbeds and see if I can find a bellhousing adapter for an SM465, too. You can buy them for a couple of grand used.

Chris

I had a '76 corvette built up for over 400 hp - it turned ~12.6 in the 1/4. I've seen pictures of a Dodge 1 ton dually pulling 11.6 in the same 1/4! My car was VERY fast - the truck was over double the weight and still much faster. I was told by a Cummins employee that 750 ft lbs is possible from that 4B, along with 250-300 hp. The marine 4B typically pulls 250 hp, from what I've seen. The Isuzu is supposed to be a good choice as well.
If you can get a 6B that cheaply with that few miles on it - I would not hesitate. Will it fit? And will it pull the frame apart if worked? Those are serious engines!

if you go over to www.oldgmctrucks.com/ and do a search there is a great posting abount a cummins in a AD and he made a disk brake adapter for a 3/4 ton

It isn't a stovebolt but it is still intersting:

http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/

I for one am kinda sick of my 235. It just isn't powerful enough for my 62, 3/4 ton, even without a load. I'd love to have a 4cyl diesel. What else would have to be done to get a 4BTA into my truck? Are there any wiring difficulties / tricks?

Also: What vehicles used the 4BTA and turbo 400 setup? Once I have all the info, I'm going to start looking for one.

I don't think a 4BTA swap should be too difficult after looking at the other 4BTA swaps on the internet, I searched google. If you get the bread truck factory swap motor, the mounts drop down on a set of V8 mounts from what I have read. I think the regular boat style side mounts would be easier to fab into a truck frame with a straight axle.

One concern I have would be the 400 kickdown that you would have to do manually since the switch is one the pedal in most trucks.

Alternator, starter and shutdown solenoid + gauges. I would think a tach should be used until you were familiar with the engine. Tachs on diesels are wired to the alternator.

It appears the going rate on one of these with a turbo 400 or SM465 out of a bread truck is about $3000-3500 running. Half that needing a rebuild.