The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Potential Vortec 4200 opportunity - if enough people speak up!

In my current SLURP psoting related to engine choices, Scott Danforthwas kind enough to again draw my attention to the Vortec 4200 inline 6 that makes 290 crank hp in FACTORY STOCK trim, and suggested again that Iseriously consider it for my project. When I again objected to the need for a computer, sensors, and harness, he follwoed up with information by email to me on a shop that has done a CARBURETED version. This has led to what I consider an exceptional potential opportunity. Let me explain.

I called that shop. I would name there here, but I think forum rules forbid anythign that sounds like advertising, so bear with me a moment.

The shop has indeed built a handful of these engines - but for dragracing use. They have done both carbureted and injected ones. The strongest one makes 1400 crank horsepower (that's not a misprint - one thousand four hundred hp). In additon to being raced, it was actually run on the street in a Chevy stationwagon for 5000 miles!

The owner of this shop is intrigued enough that he would like to build one for his personal use, in a mid 1980s Chevy pickup truck!

So, we have a shop that is both capable and interested in this incredible engine.

There is a problem though.

They are VERY busy. Therefore, they are not sure that they want to take the time to build the onwer's personal one,or one for me, or anyone else. They are ging to think about it.

What I told them I would want is 350 to 400 crank hp. Glen, the owner I spoke with, says you can get close to 350 just by using a dual exhaust and changing the fuel delivery, and no other mods.

Here is why I am posting: I figure if it's just Glen and me intersted in one of these, that's not a business case for the shop to do anything about it. BUT, if a bunch of you guys are potnetially interested, that could change everything, as the shop could then justify the prototyping and production time.

Soooo,

IF you have any SERIOUS interest in a modern, very lightweight (430 lb)carbureted Chevy inline 6, double overhead cam, insanely good fuel mileage, that could use EITHER a Chevy HEI ignition or an MSD plu-and-play that retains the coil packs / camshaft snesor/crankshaft sensor ignition setup, I need you to PM me so that I can give you the shop's phone number, and you can add your voice to the "market demand" that the shop could see if they proceeded with this idea.

I figure if enough of us ask for their help, they'll consider either complete engines, or at least 4-barrel manifolds and MSD ignition kit, as offerings.

Let me know if interested.

Jim G

Hy JimGnitecki, are we talking about complete engines, or kits to eliminate the ECM, sensors, and fuel injection?

Could be EITHER I suppose.

What would people want?

Complete engine or retrofit kit to eliminate the electronics (PCM, harness, external sensors, injectors)except for ignition?

Jim G

Jim,

"I called that shop. I would name there here, but I think forum rules forbid anythign that sounds like advertising, so bear with me a moment."

There is no problem mentioning a good experience with a product, shop, company, seller, or mechanic, unless you are advertising with the purpose of simply drumming up business for yourself, a relative, a friend, etc (or, if you are getting a kick-back).

People mention products and companies all the time, like Jasper Engines & Rebuilding.

Tim

These engines have been discussed before as possible donors for AD and other old GM trucks. As far back as 99 or 2000 (?) when the new Trailblazers first starting hitting the roads. But almost always the computer-thing was a discouragement. What's the history? Has one successfully been transplanted into a 55-1 or 50 or any other pre-computer Chevy? What do good, savage engines go for around the country? Does the shop guy have a ball-park number as to cost for the retrofit???

All the AD transplants I am aware of have been burdened with the computer, sensors, and harness, which is why they are rare.

The potential for a CARBed, computerless solutoion is the attraction here.

These engines are relativel cheap - often only hundreds of dollars, since they are NOT in demand by the "young hotrodders", who regard any 6 cylinder inline engine as "uninteresting".

The shop owner did not discuss any costs, as I caught him completely off guard and unexpected.

IF it is ok to post the shop info, here it is:

Self Racing 580-924-5866 (Durant, OK)
Glen Self & Kevin are the owners

Web address:
http://www.selfracing.com/

You can see photos of their carbed race 4200 there.

PLEASE call them directly, not me, to let them know if you are interested, but post here that you have, so we have some idea how many of us are interested, and therefore how much influence we will have with this company.

Jim G

Already done and driving.... abiet with an aftermarket computer.

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/351586/fpart/1

Yes, I had read your thread. I am only interested in a non-computer / non wiring harness solution for my project. Others though may be ok with the computer, sensors, and harness.

The attraction of this company is the CARB versus computer approach.

Jim G

I plan on going the EFI route when I build one and will most likely have Westers Garage re-program the stock ECM. I am glad that someone is speaking highly of me for once (please someone tell the wife)

I do keep having dreams of TWM throttle bodies on the side of the Vortec 4200 with a custom aluminum valve-cover with fins and a high polish shine. here is TWM's web site - http://www.twminduction.com/ DIYEFI went the MS route which I find intriguing. I may go Autronic as a good friend is a dealer and I can get him to help with tuning issues.

Scott

Jim,

Please take a look here:
[IMG]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2032/2lowerintakeassem1bux3.th.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/3856/1lowerintakeassem1brn2.th.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4069/3lowerintakeassem1bbo1.th.jpg[/IMG]




this lower runner assembly is something I'm actively pursing. It would not take a lot of work to build a carb adapter tapering to the 2 1/4" ID of the runner. Say 6 small rodchester 2bbl carbs from an early V6 or 6 holley/Webers from chevette. This head can easily flow over 350 CFM on the intake.

You would still need to run a MSD or equivalent ignition box to control the timing. Running a belt drive distributor can cause a lot of grief due to timing scatter - ever time the belt clogs the timing will shift.

Now if enough people were serious (like 30 - 40) and wanted to do a group buy I could put the time into designing a 4bbl intake ala clifford for the 250/292 series. The design aspect is not what cost the $$$ - a pattern would need to be made to get the intakes cast and then a prototype run done/machined and tested on a vehicle.
Figure $10500-$12000 to get the wrinkles out and 40 manifolds cast/machined. So this is roughly $260 to $300 each which is affordable. The key is to get enough folks to commit $$$. I'd donate the design time to get it done.


Scott it would be REALLY easy to convert the lower intake runners into ITB's the bore ID is 2.125" a quick trip to the wreckers should turn up some suitable TB's - add a quick flange and done...;)

efi-diy: Fascinating. Problem is getting a sufficient number of people committed to something like that.

This Vortec 4200 has not yet been recognized for its hotrodding potential. That's a shame. Every knoweldgeable engine guy I mention it to says "yeah, impressive engine", but there is not yet aftermarket, or GM Performance, support for it. The first one in will make a killing, if he can afford the upfront investment that no one else has yet made.

Jim G

This is why there are no parts for this engine - no demand other than one off's. No parts means little interest in the engine. Its an endless circle. The only way to break it is t get enough people to commit $$$.

I can do the design side. Who wants to take up the task of getting folks interested????

Over 211 people have now viewed this posting, and no strong support. I think we have to assume there''s not enough interest.

Sigh . . .

It IS such a neat engine.

Jim G

Perhaps this might wet some appetites.... a start on one possible design...

[IMG]http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5900/flange6runnerwj9.jpg[/IMG]
By efi_diy at 2008-02-07

[IMG]http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5396/flange6arunnerpt0.jpg[/IMG]
By efi_diy at 2008-02-07

I like this look better personally: [image]http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBody.imgs/m3_bmw.jpg[/image]

Jim - this is where the whole Hod-Rod industry started...


EFI-DIY: I know fabricators that can get the flanges water-jet cut and the tubes bent for a fabricated manifold.

Also ITB's from a Triumph triple would darn near fit - just need 2 of them

Scott

Scott,

In an AD truck the firewall gets in the way of the rear runner, this is why for the lower runners pictured above I have a 20 deg. sweep forward in the runner. Now if the engine was installed in a different chassis sure straight runners - easy to make.

The key here is to come to a common design and get enough folks to belly up to the bar.

Marc

Hence the use of body tools in my garage for most of the transplants.

Scott

Is there a way to set up a poll here?

My question is, how much is this six banger worth in Calgary?

I don't know of any source that would sell it to me for any less than $1000.

What did you get yours for?

Your right the local thieves around Calgary haven't woken up to the fact the internet exists..... I have mine shipped from Detroit - for a 13,000 mile 2006 (290 HP) it was $1135 CDN. including GST.

I've seen them go for under $400 on ebay.

This engine does have my interest. My biggest concern is the double overhead cam. Does anybody know what the probabilities are for cracked heads, blown head gaskets, etc? I am currently dealing with these issues in a Grand Am (4 cyl) it's a whole lot more complicated than the old inlines.
I would also be more interested in an old school conversion for this engine, as noted earlier, possibly with a single Holley carburetor and without a computer.
Although, if the complicated parts could be simplified, it would be tempting to at least consider an EFI set up.

Sure sounds like a heck of a lot more fun than the usual V8 set up. But, as for now, I am just reading your post's and sort of thinking out loud (online even). But if you seriously think about it, this could very likely be the next rave.

John

John, Nothing Magical about EFI. Once you either go stand-alone or re-programmed ECM, there are about 25 wires between the engine and ECM and 5 from the ECM to the dash/fuesbox. It is because of EFI these engines are robust. The issues you have with your grand-am Quad-4 is the iron block/aluminum head. That combination will always give you head gasket leaks because the aluminum expands at twice the rate the iron does - simple material properties 101. The Atlas series of engines are all aluminum, so the expansion rates are the same between block and heads. I know of a few that were returned to the local dealer (my buddy is a car-peddler) that had issues (one rod bearing, one oil pump), then again every engine out there has a potential of failing.

TooManyToCount - The images are linked ([image/] [image]) which is the same technology as the smilies that everyone is fond of. The only bandwidth required is on your end if you have dialup, so the pictures will take a few seconds to load into the Cache, once there the images will remain in your cache until you purge.

Ezekiel - cost is what people are willing to pay. Local yards around here always ask high. If I need a part and have time to wait, then I offer what I believe its worth, and leave a card. 7 times out of 10 I will get a call back within a month. If I need a part immediately, I use www.car-part.com and have something shipped. Just checked on a 2006 vortec 4200, prices range from $7500 down to $500 with the median for $1000. A 2003 vintage has many many more for the $500 range. Canada pricing is shown at 3X that of the pricing in the US.
While I do not support EBAY and the extortion tactics, there are times that a 4200 goes for only a few hundred $USD

OK enough discussion about pictures. The site owners have spoken on this issue so it is moot to continue this.

Photos are not allowed. Period. Use links to your pictures, drawings, etc. I will remove any topics that include pictures in the future.

Thank you for your cooperation.

One item to consider if folks wanted to duplicate my existing megasquirt/EDIS (ford wasted spark ignition) setup then the tuning part becomes a whole lot easier - I have a running/driving tune up which I'd be happy to share. If you know how to post a picture on the internet, then you can install this tuneup file into a meagasquirt. It really is that easy.

As far as special tools need to install a system - if you know how to find TDC using a degree wheel and a positive stop thats as hard as it gets.

Know how to read a digital volt meter for volts and ohms? Its my main piece of test equipment that I use if I run into a problem.

You only need to set the base timing once with a timing light - the rest is done from the laptop.

Tuning - even folks that have never tuned an EFI system before - within 30 min's they have enough confidence to take over and dial in a basic advance and fuel curve.

Unlike the early days of tuning where information was tough to find and was not shared its change a lot.

These days the only time I'll use a carb is to break in a flat tappet cam motor that I DO NOT have a viable EFI tune up for. It just gotta fire and run. Once the cam breakin is done the carb come off permanently. If its a roller cam motor then I can afford to get the EFI dial in sinceI won't wipe the cam out.


Back to the question at hand though - what is it going to take to get enough interest if EFI is really not your thing?

I would be interested in getting on board for roughly $300 towards a 4 barrel manifold for this engine. That would be cheap in my mind when comparing to what one could spend on a 50 year old 235.

Let me know it this idea gains momentum, so the details can be ironed out early.

John

John,

OK - now if 39 more souls come forth ... this can happen.

[IMG]http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3992/assem1ks7.th.jpg[/IMG]

Start of a dual 2 barrel intake.

UPDATE SEE BELOW

Hey guys, PLEASE stop posting actual photos. The moderator has said he will remove topics with actual photos versus links, and that means he would be removing MY hread because someone ELSE is not playing by the forum rules. THat's just not right.

Jim G

Separate issue: I started this thread, and asked for expressions of interest in this engine. I believe we have our answer: almost NONE when you come right down to it.

While we may love the concept, the vast majority of Stovebolters evidently do not share our enthusiasm.

I know when to quit. I'm buying an LS series V8, and wait until you hear what IT can do with very little money, and a carburetor versus EFI setup.

Jim G

Jim, Dont give up hope yet. Marc and I have been chatting in the background about intakes, etc. there are ways to get low volume manifolds vs cast. I will contact my fabricator with a simple sketch for a log-style manifold for running 3 1-barrels on it to get a ball-park. The cost may or may not be within your budget, however there is still hope. Plus, I dont think Marc has posted intakes on inliners yet.

Scott

Jim,

The thumbnail to my understanding is not hosted on the stovebolt forum but is downloaded along with the web page when you open the page up. If I'm wrong then please corect me.

Marc

I've been waiting for the inliners forum to get fixed. It crashed a while back, last I checked the forums were still down.

Try it now Marc. I was able to get in, however I had to log back in, save password, etc. Yes, it appears that the site is up and down a lot

Scott

Inliners post is up.

Hey Jim,

It's your truck, do what you want. I doubt that many here will be impressed with a V8, as it has already been done thousands, and thousands of times.

Overall, it has nothing to do with pleasing the vast majority, as long as it makes YOU happy.

Most of us here, (the vast majority) like them all, and are equally grateful whenever another bolt gets saved from the big melt down.

It is even more satisfying to me, when I hear that one is actually being put back on the road no matter how many cylinders it takes to get it there.

Good luck with your project. I have no doubt that you will get it done right.

John

[IMG]http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8987/assem2cn6.th.jpg[/IMG]

What remains to be completed is the plenum to runner cutouts, plenum top - I need the base plate dimensions for a holley 2 bbl and the balance tube between the plenum's. This is one days work, however, its far enough along to show folks that its 85% complete. If more folks belly up, it will get done quick. I have a few other pressing items that I need to finish to get my own ride on the road. I'll stop by daily and see how interest is coming along.

If someone could measure and sketch up the holley 2bbl base plate and send me the dimensions I'll finish the top off.

Balls in the air - who want to run with it?

Jim,

By the way I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Just trying to help out.

Marc

John: You missed a key piece in my plan: it's NOT just a V8 that has been done thosuands of times. I have not yet seen, despite looking hard everywhere I know, an LS engine in an AD truck.

The LS engines would normally be way inappropirate due to their need for a computer and a huge and ugly wiring harness.

However, recent developments in the marketplace make it possible to run a CARBURETED LS engine that looks very "traditional", without any "powertrain control module" (computer) and without the harness. These engines are so lightweight compared to a regular smallblock, and are so ridiculously easy to soup up inexpensively, that they are STARTING to transform the street rod scene. To my knowledge, I think there is actually a chance that my AD will be the FIRST AD to actually run an LS engine.

If I am incorrect on that - if any of you know of another one - PLEASE let me know. I would really like to speak with its owner, and see what issues he or she ran into relative to steering clearnace, oil sump, and engine front-mounted accessories!

BY the way, I have a BIG surprise planned when I do the LS thing. The visual impact will be "memorable".

Jim G

Jim,

Nothing recent about carburated LS's Been used in racing since '98

Also, plenty of AD's running LS's Some iron from trucks, some aluminum from F-bodies and 'Vettes. Its an easy swap.

Scott