The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop King Pin engineering - 1 ton

Well, GL, you were right. Getting the pins out of my 1 ton axle was rough - and get this - most of the shops wouldn't even try it - even the local truck repair and axle shops here in Dallas, Texas! Not like its a community of 1000 with one shop. Sheesh. Need a lounge thread on that. Guess no one needs to work.

Anyway, fortunately I have a bud who runs a local general repair and with his 30 ton press and a oxy-acetelyne, we finally got both pins out after about an hour of general foul language. There was no way my pounding on it with a 16 lb sledge hammer was going to get that #$#@ apart.

After reading about the Royal King pin kit in the previous post, that got a bug in my ear, but I have a 1 ton, so I can't use that kit. I have found some suitable roller bearings to use, but I would have to turn the ends of the king pins down about 1.5 mm and bore the knuckles about 3-4 mm. The metric bearings are the closest fit. Have to leave the middle of the king pin alone so its still tight in the axle.

Now for you engineers out there, see if you can help me with this and bounce some ideas about:

1. No reason to use new king pin kit I bought if I convert to needle bearings/roller bearings because I would be turning the old pins down. Right?

2. Main problem I can see would be installing the thing. You'd have to put the king pins through the knuckle and axle, and then press the roller bearings in from the top and bottom on each side. Using the shop press, that should go ok without destroying the bearings, right?

Any comments or opinions are welcome. Since I would return the king pin kit I bought that would cover the expense of the roller bearings and caps.

Do not do it. I guess from my point of view, this will take the repair out of your hans and put it into someone else's hands $$$$$$$$$. And im not verey sure that a needle/ roler is a very good idea.[ THAT KIND OF LOAD on a , neadle, roller bearing???????? . especially after you turn down the OD of the pin [iner race of the bearing ?? ]. the torque on a bearing that small. think about it, look at it , see how the load is applied, take that king pin and spindle in your hand and visualize hiting a bump then multiply that by that by the bigest number you can think of. Then think loading, leaverage on that pin I GUESS I THINK OF THIS AS A **** IDEA [FIX OR REPAIR DAILY ] Sorry for the forbiden verbige. BUT CRIPES BUSHINGS HAVE BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME AND CAN TAKE VERY BIG LOADS. This is the hi end $$$$ and opposite the nylon king pin bushing. MY .00000000000000000000001 CENTS. STAY STOCK, GREASE IT. GET A STRONGER ARM.

Irwin,

Needle or roller bearings do not like partial rotation applications, plain bearings IE king pins and bushings are the BEST way to pivot a spindle in a beam axle. You could do as you say and put the bearings in but, you WILL see more wear in the pin and spindle. The roller are hard steel and your pins and spindle are softer material. The roller will wear this stuff out in no time. Also the surface area of the bushing is many times the contact patch of roller bearings. If you grease the king pins they will last a long time and the steering effort will be very low.

So in a word DON"T!

Steve is correct about partial rotation on roller and needle bearings.A few years ago ,Toyota I think, was having premature wheel bearing failure on its cars. After much investigation, they found cars shipped by rail were rocking back and forth on the rail cars during shipment.This action was causing wheel bearing failure on new cars, the bearing races were indented from the action.But some motorcycles use tapered roller bearings on the swing arm pivot with out problems, so....?
Another problem with the needle bearing conversion is line boring the spindles for the bearing installation.Many old spindle eyes are egged shaped from all the pounding over the years. This is no problem if you prees in new bushings then ream them to size.But the needle bearing shell will be distorted when pressed in. If the kit requires boring of the eyes, then this won't be a problem of course.
Old GM trucks from 41 up with the Saginaw recirculating ball steering box will steer quite well if the box and various rod ends are in good shape.Our 51 Chevy steers just fine with new front parts and a good steering box,as good as any much newer non power steering truck.
Play close attention to the tie rod and drag link ends, the stock pressed in balls are likely to be worn oblong, replace the balls or use a modern style tie rod replacement.The front beam axles may also take a "set", meaning the wheels have too much negative camber, incresing steering effort.The camber can be easily checked with the truck resting on its wheels by using a level and some blocks so the level is against the rim not the tire.Truck alignment shops have the hydraulic tools to bent beams back into specs.If its ok, set the castor around 2-4 degress with spring pad shims with the truck sitting at its normal attitude. The toe in can be accurately set with a tape measure if you are careful.

Are the pins themself case hardened, and if you turn them down a little you remove part of the harding? I know the ones I have laying around don't make very good beater bars, they splinter off to easy. Joe

An excellent discussion.

I got the idea from this post:

http://www.stovebolt.com/bboard/cgi-bin//ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003846

10 year warranty too.

I have/had many motorcycles that use roller bearings in swing arm pivots, as well as the steering head. An 82 Honda CX500 Turbo has the head bearings torqued down to 120 ft lbs, and the GL500s had 90 ft lbs. So that's a pretty big load not including road shock etc. Not much rotation there.

The eyes maybe indeed egg shaped, but I have to bore the knuckles and turn the pins so I think those issues may not be a problem. Assuming the machine shop can do it right. I don't have the precision equipment to do this kind of work, it would all go to a shop.
I do have a brand new drag link with new ends, and I have new tie rod ends replacing the old multi piece ones.

The wear issues are valid ones though. I could look into a bit larger bearing that comes a inner race. That might relieve that issue. If it did go off, well, I could get couple of spindles put it back to stock, or move on to more modern bits.

Keep it coming and check the above link for Molley45's truck.

Thanks.

The partial rotation problem is with respect to the individual balls or rollers, not the entire assembly. If each roller/ball makes a full turn in the normal operation of the assembly, there should be no problem.

Needle bearing assemblies would need to rotate just a few degrees to make a full turn on the needles. I think they would work fine in spindles. They obviously work fine in u-joints, where they make little more than a full turn.

Joe

Good point, the rollers in these bearings are very small. I would imagine they would make at least 1 turn, and probably just over 2 turns. The bearing guy thought it would work well as the rollers and the king pins are both hardened.

Irwin,

I too have the royal king pin set. The needle bearings are actually very short bearings (0.500") and the design stacks two of them to get the same length as a standard bushing. Plus they include thrust bearings - which are similar to those in a standard king pin rebuild kit.

The steering knuckle is not opened up at all as far as bore is concerned and the needle bearings come with an external bearing cage with an OD that is a light press fit into the stock bore on the steering knuckle.

The king pins themselves are turned down on the ends to accomodate the needle bearings. I dont have a micrometer handy, but they look to be turned down to .75 inches.

The pins are made of stainless steel.

If your knuckles are not egged out - this would be an easy kit to make yourself. Torrington bearings were used in the 1/2 ton kit (part# B-138 stamped on the race). The clearance between the pin and the bearing diameters seemed loose to me, but when the race is pressed into the knuckle, it feels pretty good. The pins are also drilled on the ends and threaded for grease zerks on the ends and side drilled to allow grease to get to the bearings on the diameter. The stock grease zerk locations will not work as these ports are blocked by the outer bearing race of the needle bearing.

I wouldn't hesitate to do this now that I have seen what all is involved with the kit I bought for my suburban.

Good Luck!

Thanks Ken, Funny you should mention it, but that's the same bearing maker I found and I figured out virtually the same set up (once they gave me the idea), only with hk2216 bearings. The one ton king pins measure at 23.40 mm, so the 22mm ones work, and they are 16mm long, which like in your kit, you use 2 of them on top an bottom.

The shop guide has some interesting info. Front axle spec on 1/2 ton shows king pins at .866" with bushing inside diameter at .868" On the 3/4 ton and 1 ton (with some of the 4000 series) its .921 for the king pin and .923 for the bushing inside diameter. (Page 3-44 in your 58 chevy truck books boiz)

So I guess the .002 of slop in there might account for the looseness you feel on install. Knowing that the pins are drilled for grease is very helpful. Thanks.

Quit messin' around. Chev Duty has the right sets for 1-tons or even Chevs of the 40s. C-Duty is cheaper. I bought two other sets used thinking I could make them work and STILL went with correct kit later as some thrust bearings were diff and the pins were longer on other years. Same size pins just longer. Yours should have a roller bearing and holder for thrust bearing, and some only have the washers stacked for that. Don't you just love the 1-ton crap for being just a little diff than normal??

Mine has the stacked thrust bearings. I got started on this whole deal when I got plastic bushings. I am returning them tomorrow to JC.

JC??? this isn`t another religous post now is it :p :p
All interesting info on the king-pins and bushings.It will be good to hear feed-back on how they perform.

Ouch! Shoulda said Jim Carter!

status:

The replacement king pin kit showed up today! And I figured they would wait till I returned the old one, but they didn't. Just sent it on anyway - and its NOS bits in the neat GM Parts box. So that's 1 brownie point for Jim Carter.

So, if I can't find a machine shop to do the work, I can at least go stock. The first machine shop I tried so far has been a real dud.

Anyone know of one in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area that they like?

I think I have a bud I will try tomorrow, but if all I get is chicken poop responses from the shops, then I guess it will be a stock update.

Whoa, back up to Ken's post. The king pins in the Royal kit have the ends turned down?So you install one bearing,put the spindle in place, push in the king pin then press in the remaining bearing?
There used to be or still are pin kits for larger trucks using a stainless spiral wound "bushing" to be used in place of soft bushings for king pins and spring eye pins. I used them many times on medium trucks where they outlasted soft bushings in problem situations.

Tony, the pin is installed with no bearings and then the bearings are pressed into the upper and lower eyes with a tool supplied with the kit. Bearings are a slip fit on the pin and a med-press fit into the eye. The tool is basically a piece of thin walled pipe that presses on the outer race of the needle bearing. Want pics?

Please.... pic's

more info - talked to a good recommended machine shop, and the problem is that the king pins I have now have to be ground down to work. Grinding will not allow them to be drilled and cross drilled to get grease to the moving bits. And it would be expensive just to set up for the bore on the spindles.

I think a company with prospects of selling many units can have the bearings and king pins made, and then have the king pins hardened, and thus justify the tooling expense. For a one off job - well - if it was the last 59 3800 on the planet getting that $1,000,000 1000 point restoration...(hardly).

In this case, I think I will just have napa hone the new king pins on to the new bushings so they will really have a nice fit and be done with it.

I tried.

You guys might want to check this companys king pin products. www.vwkaiser.com I've been a school bus mechanic for 21 yrs. now, & have done many king pin jobs, the Kaiser Quik kit is by far the best king pin kits we have ever used. (no reaming required ) Spiral steel bushings that you twist in & out.

I forgot to mention I have bought king pin Quik kits from Kaiser for the '64 L60 2 1\2 ton & '65 L80 2 1\2 Ton Chevrolets I had. I'm not sure how far back they go, yr. wise.

Well, fortunately I got the NOS bits from Jim Carter and the part number is 3720696 (barely can read) which is the Kaiser K40G kit. Their part is 3x the cost of the Jim Carter one, but considering labor and time savings, it may work out the same, or close enough. I am out of town next week, but definitely going to give this a lot of thought.

Thanks Spanky - their product does look like a big step up with the grease grooved king pins and spiral steel bushings.

Packard used the torrington needle bearings from the factory with the kingpin setup just took one apart last week, the bushing end was scored on the pin, the bearing end did not have a mark at all on the pin or the bearings..2c