The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Rivets/Welding brackets/bolting

Hi Guys,

Let's say you had a bare frame. Let's say all the rivets were cut off off the suspension and the brakets removed. Let's say those holes were welded up. Then let's say you wanted to put that suspension back in which meant re-attaching the brackets somehow.
What i'm getting at is if I realign the brackets can I weld them on? (the holes on the frame are welded up but not the holes in the brackets, it would basically just be a couple big spot welds) I figure there was no movement in the rivets. If I have to remove them again, i'm finding a new frame.
The hours and hours of drilling while laying below the truck do not seem overly appealing if welding the brackets on is just as sufficient.

Thanks
Colin

Colin
If this was my frame, I would be very hesitant to weld them. I would think it would be a lot safer and more reliable to drill them out and use a good grade 8 bolt.
Just my thoughts.
Jim

whith my expirence with welding. i have found that 1 the weld more than likely wont be hot enough in a spot weld to be strong enough to hold the suspension on .2 it will be a spot for cracks to form. and in my mind a few plug welds are way ro weak to hols suspension components on if i were to weld that kind of stuff on i would use dual sheild wire on do a complet weld around the outside edges. but then iit would be a pain to remove the peices later if needed to replace them.

That's kind of what I figured,
I guess i'll start drilling.

Thanks for the quick reply guys,

Colin

Why not rivets?
For frames where rivets were originally used I prefer to use new rivets, installed hot.

If you don't use rivets, do use the proper frame bolts and nuts. They can be bought at a good heavy truck parts store.
The down side to using bolts in old rivet holes is you often need to re-drill them to the next bolt size up to achieve a snug fit between the bolt and the hole.
A loose fitting bolt in a frame or suspension bracket is asking for trouble. Because a frame does, and needs to, flex it can cause sloppy fitting bolts to weaken and break.

Grigg

The cost between grade 5 and grade 8 bolts is negligible. I would always use grade 8.

If the holes in the frame have been welded up, there's been enough heat stress on the metal that I'd reccomend scrapping it and finding an unmodified frame. Drilling out the welds won't alter the stresses in the metal surrounding the holes. Cracks will probably develop around the drilled-out welds in short order.
Jerry

Have to agree with Hotrod Lincoln. Welding on frames, especially that old ,actually can weaken the metal.I found a replacement frame. It really wasn't that hard as so many are swapped out nowadays.

What about frames that have IFS clips welded in? Are those frames heat stressed and unsafe aswell?

Thanks
Colin

My 48 Chevy 2 ton still had stenciled from the factory inside the left frame rail behind the cab "Don't weld on frame", I forget exactly how it was worded, but that's the point. Thought I had a picture of it, but can't find it.

Grigg

I've seen quite a few frame and suspension parts that are welded and have worked well for many years. I think the real concern welding suspension parts is doing it right, not that its been done.

However the suspension brackets we are talking about are all cast iron, and welding them to the mild steel frame does not seem like a good idea. If you have to ask I'd suggest you don't know enough to do it right.

As for the running board brackets, my concern regarding welding them to the frame would be the absense of any flex in a weld compared mounting it with a rivit. Over the length of a running board you will have enough flex to cause problems.

My Corvette, Subaru and K3500 all have welded suspension components. All three have more than 100,000 miles with no suspension failures. Done right its a very workable approach as proven I think by these three factory built vehicles.

But here I'm inclinded to agree with the guy who has a welded straight axle under the front of his truck, and say rivits as the manufacturer intended are probably your best bet.

And I think the best way to get them is to find another frame. They aren't that difficult to find and often very cheap to buy. I'm planning to collect one for free this weekend. You can't have it, but it proves they can be found. It won't be the first one I've dragged home for little or nothing.

i use self locking nuts also

Mustang II IFS clips are designed so that the clip and suspension pieces take most of the stress and reduce frame flexing..And coupled with frame plates that should be welded in, adds to its strength. The stock spring suspension is tied soley to the frame channel for strength,so cutting and welding in that area is an issue.It's amazing how brittle old steel can be.

I personally would never weld up holes in a frame. Unless you plan on racing with a big block there is no need.

I've built several dirt track race car frames from the ground up, starting with a street vehicle frame and doing major modifications. There's one rule of thumb on race frames- - - -build it three times as strong as you think it needs to be, and don't be too surprised if it breaks.

"Strong" doesn't necessarily mean "heavy". A truss structure built out of thinwall tube can be as strong as, or stronger than a heavily fish-plated assembly if it's designed correctly. Just make sure your welds are the correct alloy, done with the right heat setting on the welder.

One upcoming project is going to be fitting a later-model 3/4 ton Chevy IFS to my 59 Burb. It's going to need some frame reinforcement and crossmember fabrication in places, because I'm also planning to go with a 500 Cad engine/Turbo 400 trans at the same time. The suspension stress points and torque application areas will be entirely different than the 283/3-speed it had originally.
Jerry

Boy there sure is a wealth of information in this forum. I've heard that welding can weaken a frame, and that some flexing of the frame is to be expected. On the other hand, I see people "boxing" a frame "to give it more strength." The people doing the boxing never mention possible problems due to welding on the frame. Also, I see people cutting frames to stretch or shorten the frame, and then welding the frame back together.

For old truck frames that are likely to see no heavier duty than a "daily driver", if the welds are done properly and the metal is good, would you expect problems? I understand that a newer frame in good condition is preferable, just curious and trying to improve my level of understanding.

Dave

Oldsub hit the nail on the head, Colin wants to weld the OEM brackets back in the original location, problem is, they are castiron and if you never welded castiron, you won't know what we are talking about. It just dosn't like to be welded to any other metal or to it self.
Plus he wants to weld them only in the original rivit holes like a big spot weld. This would only be 4 spots less then 1/2" diameter each.

As far as adding late model stuff, thats a different story. Lots and lots of welding has been done over the years to frames with out problems. Done right, they work just fine. Joe

After removing the rear springs hangers rivets,etc. from my 55,and installing new hangers etc. with bolts ,yeah the safe way would be to drill and bolt.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Colin:
[QB] The hours and hours of drilling while laying below the truck do not seem overly appealing if welding the brackets on is just as sufficient.

If you stand the frame on it's side and use a magnetic drill press clamped on the framerail it will go pretty easy. I would heat the areas you welded and then make sure they slow cool to relieve stress before you drill. Welding them on takes special rods and procedures to be done right. Good luck.

Curt

A couple of things. From what I have read, frames, especially truck frames, are made out of different materials, depending on manufacturer, model, year, etc. Some of the materials are "NO WELD EVER", some are OK to weld on, if it is done properly. A metallurgist could tell you what type yours is if you know what the original material was, and what, if any, treatments it received during manufacture.

Using bolts is almost always safe, if you use the right bolt. Remember, though, that a channel section has a neutral axis at it's center. Above the neutral axis, compression forces increase, and below the neutral axis, tension forces increase. Naturally, the closer you stay to the neutral axis, the less stress/strain on the hole. Remember that any hole in the frame is going to produce a 'stress riser'. That's why stress cracks tend to radiate from holes. Peening holes can reduce the stresses generated significantly. (Put the ball of a ball peen hammer in the hole and hit the flat head with a brass hammer, or a dead blow hammer. Wear safety glasses anyway.)

Basically, I would suggest that everyone read Carroll Smith's book 'Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook' ISBN 0-87938-406-9. I think most of you will stop worrying about whether a bolt is listed as a Grade 8 or a Grade 5. It seems that, in many cases, the Grade 5 may be more suitable than the Grade 8. Naturally, AN/MS is really the only way to go for critical components, once you get used to the sizing system.

Good hardware around here is hard to find. There is an O'Reilly, a Do-It Center and a Wal-Mart withing cruising range, but they usually don't have exactly what I need. I've been having good luck in both quality and price from McMasters & Carr

For instance, I needed an 7/16" bolt eight inches long, 14 tpi for a generator mount for one of my trucks. For $20, not counting S&H, I got the bolt in Grade 8(?), 25 heavy duty nuts to fit, 100 flat washers and 25 lock washers. I've tried to find that bolt at LMC, etc. No luck.