The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 Power Loss & Overheating - HELP

Guys, I'm frustrated! I am the first to admit I know very little about engines... could build you one out of wood that would work beautifully... but this is my first "work-on" vehicle, so please bear with me.

She's a '48 with a '54 235 in her that the PO said was rebuilt less than 500 miles ago. I have a list as long as my arm of things that need to be fixed or replaced on her (I know, join the club). I just got her charging problem fixed with the addition of a new regulator and battery... thanks Mechainiac and Oly... but now she has begun to lose power on the hills and overheat. I checked everything listed on other overheating posts, and as far as I can tell the thermostat is working, installed right, and there's good flow through the radiator. Shes recently became harder and harder to start though, and now it sounds as if there is an exhaust leak somewhere under the hood.Going downhill to work seems to be no problem, just getting louder, but she will start to overheat coming back uphill in the afternoons.

I figure I will need to take her to a qualified mechanic, as this is my daily driver and I need to have her running. Does anyone know a good one in the Placerville, CA area? Even if I find one though, I am not sure I can get her all the way in to town (about an hour away). Any help or suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.

are you loosing any water if so possible blown headgasket .if not if could be in timeing .if you can get a compressoin guage check each cylinder .try to find the exaust leak .manifold may be cracked through the intake side and loosing power there .i dont think that will make it run hot .im no expert but these are things to check at home before you go spend a bunch of money

TIming advanced too much will make it run hotter. If someone has maybe twisted the dist in an attempt to get it running better and now it is running hotter try this. Get a vaccuum guage and hook up to the vac on the side of the intake. May now have the vac wipers hose there now. Start the engine if the vac is below say 17 inches of vac shut off the engine before it gets hot and carefully loosen the screw that prevents the dist from turning. Use a long screwdriver. Its on the front side of the dist at the bottom. Loosen it just enough to barely turn the dist. Start the engine and look at the vac guage again and by slowly turning the dist first one way then another does the vac increase and the engine sound better. If you can get the vac higher you will be doing many good things for this old engine and yourself with increased confidence. The timing will be closer to where it should be (5 degrees before TDC). And it will run smoother and cooler. The old motor manuals and chevy guidance said to put in a therm that opens around 145 degrees if I remember correctly. I have not been able to find one that opens that early now days but I use a 160 with good results. You may have other issues with this engine but this will get you started on the right track. You can do this stuff yourself. Save your money and have fun. You might want to flush out the cooling system good and replace with a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze. If your system is tight, hoses in good condition and the radiator and heater core in good shape try a 5-7 lb rad cap that will increase your boiling point and allow it to run cooler also. We are here to help you.
Tim

Bobby- Not losing fluid, other than overheating.

Tim- Since this engine was recently rebuilt just prior to my purchasing it, I think the valves probably need to be adjusted... something I'm not sure I'm ready to tackle just yet. I think having it checked over by a good mechanic is probably a good idea at this point. I'm just trying to get as much feedback as I can so I don't look like a complete dumb*** when I bring it in. I do want to eventually do all the work myself though.

Boswell, If you can't figure it out let me know and we'll see if I can make it over to help diagnos your problem. Brian Davis, Auburn

Just wanted to give you an update:

SHE'S RUNNING AGAIN!!!

This weekend I went down and purchased a vacuum gauge and timing light, as well as the parts for a tune up. After Eric talked me through what I needed to do, I hooked up the vacuum gauge and reset the points, which were way out. Then I loosened the dist clamp and twisted til I could get it started. At that point I was at about 12 on the gauge, so I twisted it til I could get it to 16.5, which was the best she would do. Then I reset the points, tried it again and finally timed it to the pointer and ball. This still gives me only a little over 16 on the vacuum guage, but she runs a whole lot better.

What should I look for next? Does not getting to 17 mean I have a problem that needs to be addressed? She still seems to be running a little on the warm side, and will move to overheat if she idles too long. As long as I keep her moving she seems to hover at about 190.

Anyway, thanks again for all the help and support, especially from Eric and Tim.

Boswell

Sounds like you're on the right track. 16 is a tad low, but not bad. For one thing, you have a new and tight engine. Have you changed the oil yet? 500 miles is time. If you don't have ready access to break-in oil, go with a 10W-30. Here's a good page for basic info. Century Performance Go to tuning and vacuum gauge, it will tell you how to diagnose things like valves out of adjustment. They're not that hard to adjust, either.

Good job on what you have accomplished and you can be proud. However you have more work to do. I have given this some thought and now agree that the next thing to do is re set the valves. Are they hyd or solids? If the valves are too tight as what I suspect, running hot, losing power, the exhause valve is not on the face long enough to transfer the heat. Therefor the slow creep of heat. If its a stock cam? in a 235 ci enginge set to .006 & .013 hot. If its an after market cam from one of the manuf set to their cam card. After resetting the valves go back and check the timing and reset the carb idle screw and air fuel mixture. Some fiddling will get it right. With a new engine and the valves set correctly you should be pulling 20-22 inches on vac at idle even with an aftermarket cam with more lift. Do not wait to set the valves correctly.
Tim

Boswell,
Ok here you go. No disrespect to centuryperformance or anyone else but you need not to get confused at this time in your education. Solid Lifters is what I would suspect for your engine. Call your machinest or whoever did your engine and ask them what kind of lifters do you have and what did they set them at?? If solids do the following asap: Start engine let run for 20 minutes or so til it gets good and hot. While you are waiting for it to heat up. go get a scraper to go under the gasget of the valve cover.(PS you only need gasget sealer on the top of the gasget that contacts the valve cover). A screwdriver and I think a 3/4" box end wrench. A similar deepset socket, short extension and wrachet. Flat feeler guage with .006 for the intake and .013 for the exhaust if you have a solid lifter stock cam. The scraper is obvious what to do with that. The socket will loosen the nut on the rocker arm and the wrench and screwdriver will do the final adjustments. Are YOU READY?: With this method you only have to turn the engine over twice maybe 3 times. If the engine is now hot, turn it off. Take off the valve cover, remember the scraper under the gasget and carefully take off and set to one side. Take out all the spark plugs, carefully marking each plug wire as to where it goes, you will like this later. (I use a wood clothes pin marked 1-6) Next Take off distributor cap, noting where # 1 plug wire enters the cap. Turn engine over using the front snout bolt if you have one, clockwise until both valves on # 1 cyl are all the way up and the rotor in the dist under the cap points to where the #1 plug wire would be if the cap was on. If you are sure you have #1 and not #6 cyl as it is easy to get mixed up proceed to the following:
After you have already turned engine over where it would fire on #1 plug: Set the following valves: 1E, 1I,2I,3E,4I,5E.

Stop.

Turn engine again clockwise to fire #6 plug,(line up the rotor to fire where six would be in the cap).

Set 6E,6I,5I,4E,3I,2E.

Stop you are done.

Before you start draw yourself a diagram as to which valves are which with the setting next to each. This will come in handy as you proceede. You will need to be on the passenger side looking across. The valves on either end are exhaust. See how they line up with the exh manifold? They go like this from back to front: #6 Exh/Int, #5 Int/Exh, #4 Exh/Int, #3 Int/Exh, #2 Exh/Int #1 Int/Exh. Set valves per above instructions.

When done (smile) You have achieved greatness.
Carefully put on dist cap, valve cover, plugs in same order, plug wires using wood clothes pins for guidance. Check oil, drink beer. Start engine. Hook up vaccuum guage, the vac should be higher if valves were tight.(20/21" of vac) You may have a little valve noise, thats ok. And engine will run cooler. At some point soon, check timing again. Points should be .019 for used and if new .020 to .021. With vac guage on engine and with engine running slowly turn in the air/fuel mixture to achieve highest reading on the vac guage. Good Job.
Tim

Well spoken, Tim. As for turning the engine over, with the plugs out I turn the engine with the fan belt or fan blade.

Okay, I have a few questions before I attempt this...

:confused: First: I didn't have the engine rebuilt, the PO did. Can't seem to get a hold of him, so I don't know about the cam or the lifters. I do know he mentioned that it was bored out when rebuilt, but I don't know by how much. So how critical is all this information before I start this?

:confused: Second: I took the valve cover off last weekend when I was working on the engine, just to get familiar, but I didn't put any sealant on the gasket when I put the cover back on. Is this a bad thing and do I need to get a new gasket?

:confused: Third: I changed the oil last weekend. I am running 10-40 in it, as that's what the PO said he used. Is this alright, or should I be using something else?

:confused: Fourth: The plug wires are already marked, as is the distributor cap at #1. Once I turn the engine over to #1, how exactly do I set the valves and where do I measure the clearance?

:confused: Fifth: I replaced the points last weekend, but I was told the gap on new was .019 and on worn was.016? Which is right? Also, here's a bone head question... when you gap them, I noticed the rotor can turn a little, spreading them further apart or closer together. Do you set the gap at the furthest point apart or the closest?

Let's see... I think that covers all the stupid beginner questions for now. Thanks for all the help... was about to call it quits and park it in a field somewhere... if I could get it started that is!

Boswell

Boswell,
No question is trivial here you are doing fine.

First?: Knowing is very critical as there are two different settings between solids and hyd lifters. Press the PO for an answer or at least find out who rebuilt the engine for him or her as the case may be.

Second?: Sealant only needs to be on the valve cover side of the gasget, not the part of the gasget that touches the head. Permatex non hardening is a good choice in my book.

Third?: 10w40 is ok but a little thick for a new engine break in with low miles on the clock. Everyone will tell you a different weight if asked. After break in some use a synthetic 10w30 lub.

Forth?: Once you know its firing on #1plug (the pointer is on where the #1 wirre would be in the cap) Both valves should be all the way up and there is a little play between the end of the valve and the rocker arm. There might be none if the valves are tight or one may be tight. Take the rachet with the correct socket and loosen slightly (1)turn the nut on the end of each of the rocker arms on #1 cyl ok. Set down the rachet take your wrench and screwdriver and the .013 flat feeler guage and put between the end of the exhaust valve and rocker. If you can't get it in loosen slightly the screw on the rocker arm til you can. Slide the feeler guage back and forth and by turning the screw some in and out until there is (some)tight drag. Take out the feeler guage, hold the screwdriver steady so it won't change the setting and tighten down the hold down nut.You are done for the exh valve. Do the same for the intake valve using .006 and you are done for that #1Cyl. Use the same (drag) feeling for the rest of the valves as I have listed in the previous post. Very important to follow the diagram you have drawn as things get confusing about 1/2 way thru.

Fifth?: You replaced the points (New) setting is .021 used points .019. Wipe your feeler guage to get all the grease and finger oil off. Points do not like this stuff. Put enging in neutral, block one wheel so it won't roll. Turn engine over (clockwise) or (counter clockwise) it doesn't matter here til the rubbing block on the points is on one of the high spots on the center shaft of the distributor. You have 6 cyls so you will have 6 high points on this center shaft-correct. 8 cyls have 8 and 4 cly have 4. Once it is on one of the high points, you will need a screwdriver and the flat feeler guage .021. Loosen one of the screws holding down the points slightly. The other screw is the adjuster, turn it back and forth a little to view how it changes the gap between the points. Carefully put the feeler guage between the opening of the points and adjust this little screw til there is a slight drag when you move the feeler guage. Be careful during this process to not move the rubbing block off the high point of the center shaft where it needs to rest at all times during this process. The only other screw on the breaker plate is the one that holds down the condenser. Make sure that one is tight but don't over do it. Always change both the points and condenser at the same time. Once you have the points set to your satisfaction tighten down the screw that holds the points, don't over do it. These engines will run if you are a little off. Time and experience will give you a good touch. After you have set points 1/2 dozen times you will be an expert. All in all maybe two minutes to set points. First time take your time. Don't forget to put in the rotor before putting on the cap. I've done that in a hurry. I think that's it for now.
Tim

Boswell,
No question is trivial here you are doing fine.

First?: Knowing is very critical as there are two different settings between solids and hyd lifters. Press the PO for an answer or at least find out who rebuilt the engine for him or her as the case may be.

Second?: Sealant only needs to be on the valve cover side of the gasget, not the part of the gasget that touches the head. Permatex non hardening is a good choice in my book.

Third?: 10w40 is ok but a little thick for a new engine break in with low miles on the clock. Everyone will tell you a different weight if asked. After break in some use a synthetic 10w30 lub.

Forth?: Once you know its firing on #1plug (the pointer is on where the #1 wirre would be in the cap) Both valves should be all the way up and there is a little play between the end of the valve and the rocker arm. There might be none if the valves are tight or one may be tight. Take the rachet with the correct socket and loosen slightly (1)turn the nut on the end of each of the rocker arms on #1 cyl ok. Set down the rachet take your wrench and screwdriver and the .013 flat feeler guage and put between the end of the exhaust valve and rocker. If you can't get it in loosen slightly the screw on the rocker arm til you can. Slide the feeler guage back and forth and by turning the screw some in and out until there is (some)tight drag. Take out the feeler guage, hold the screwdriver steady so it won't change the setting and tighten down the hold down nut.You are done for the exh valve. Do the same for the intake valve using .006 and you are done for that #1Cyl. Use the same (drag) feeling for the rest of the valves as I have listed in the previous post. Very important to follow the diagram you have drawn as things get confusing about 1/2 way thru.

Fifth?: You replaced the points (New) setting is .021 used points .019. Wipe your feeler guage to get all the grease and finger oil off. Points do not like this stuff. Put enging in neutral, block one wheel so it won't roll. Turn engine over (clockwise) or (counter clockwise) it doesn't matter here til the rubbing block on the points is on one of the high spots on the center shaft of the distributor. You have 6 cyls so you will have 6 high points on this center shaft-correct. 8 cyls have 8 and 4 cly have 4. Once it is on one of the high points, you will need a screwdriver and the flat feeler guage .021. Loosen one of the screws holding down the points slightly. The other screw is the adjuster, turn it back and forth a little to view how it changes the gap between the points. Carefully put the feeler guage between the opening of the points and adjust this little screw til there is a slight drag when you move the feeler guage. Be careful during this process to not move the rubbing block off the high point of the center shaft where it needs to rest at all times during this process. The only other screw on the breaker plate is the one that holds down the condenser. Make sure that one is tight but don't over do it. Always change both the points and condenser at the same time. Once you have the points set to your satisfaction tighten down the screw that holds the points, don't over do it. These engines will run if you are a little off. Time and experience will give you a good touch. After you have set points 1/2 dozen times you will be an expert. All in all maybe two minutes to set points. First time take your time. Don't forget to put in the rotor before putting on the cap. I've done that in a hurry. I think that's it for now.
Tim

Okay, so it sounds like I need to change the oil again and reset the points. I will do that and adjust the valves this weekend.

:confused: The PO is long gone... Is there any way I can tell what type of lifters I have?

:confused: And how do I go about adjusting the fuel mix and idle? Is there an easy way to guage the RPMs?

Boswell

Oh, yeah... one more...

When I time the engine, do I have to disconnect the vacuum advance on the distributor first?

Thanks,
Boswell

Boswell,
Being a 54 it may have hydraulics. I'll look tonight in my vintage blue motors book to see what options there were for that year.

Hydraulics are best set running, loosen until clatters a little then tighten 1/4 turn each time until it clatter stops then 1/2 turn more then stop and go on to the next valve in order all the way thru the last cyl.

Disconnect vac to set timing yes. plug at carb.

Air fuel misture screw, hook up vaccuum guage then at idle slowly turn in and out the air fuel mixture screw until you have achieved the highest vacccuum possible.

Done
Tim

Boswell,
Ok got out my old Motor's Auto Repair Manual and it has two lifter options for 54. I have a couple of suggestions and one correction to what I have told you.

1954 6 std tr. solids set to .006 int and .016 exhaust. I had told you .013 for exhaust-ok.

1954 6 Auto Trans hydraulic valve lifters set all to 1+1/2 turns past no clatter point-ok.

They added a Service Note: "To be sure that valves and lifters function perfectly, it is strongly recommended that a vacuum guage be used when making adjustments on hydraulic lifters. With vacuum guage connected and engine idling, tighten each rocker arm unitl the highest and steadinest vacuum is indicated on the guage" Do this with each valve.

The only way to be sure which lifters you have is to take off the side cover behind the distributor. If you do this, try and save the gasget as it may be difficult. Then look at where the pushrod is resting, if you see a sort of a wire spring clip deal on the lifter top they are old hydraulics or a lifter that seems to be comprised of multiple parts and not a solid piece you have hydraulics. I did not explain this very well, maybe someone could jump in here.

I might have suggested this in previous posts? I think if I were you I would set the valves as they were solids. Using .006 and .016 settings. You will know immediately if that is a mistake. Again you will have some rocker arm clatter with the .016, thats ok. after you are done start engine and let idle with the vacuum guage hooked up. If the vac is high 19-22 you have the valves correct and can be confident you have set solids lifters.

Tim

Tim

Thanks, Tim....

I am going to attempt this this weekend... first I need to swap out the fuel pump so I can start it and get it home. I hope I'm up to all of this.

Boswell

I have read all of the above, it's great information. I do have a few side notes that may help you get through this.

First, when you get the plugs out and valve cover off, you should be able to turn the engine over by using the fan or belt. Turn it over a few times and watch what each part does and see how it works. You can even use the starter if you want, just to see things move.
To get number 1 piston in the right place, watch the two valves over that cylinder. Think about the four strokes of the engine, intake down(valve open), compression up(valves closed), fire/power down ( still closed), exhaust up ( valve open), etc.... By turning engine a few times you will start to see what is happening. When the intake valve is closing you know you are coming up on the compression cycle and piston is nearing the top of the cylinder and both valves are in the closed position.Your timing mark should be real close to (0), or what ever it has and rotor should be pointing at #1 post on the cap. This is where you adjust them. Like the above post said, you are adding clearance at the tip of the valve and rocker arm. With solid lifter, you need this clearance so when the engine heats up and metals starts to expand, everything stays in a given tolerance so the engine will run. Say 5-7 intake and 15-17 exhaust would be OK. It would be better to be on the tight side as they will open as they wear in. Nothing ever gets tighter with age . The intakes don't need as much due to the cooling of the valve by the fresh air/fuel charge passing over it. The exhaust stays hot from the hot gases. If the rockers are to tight, the valve will never rest on the seat and won't transfer the heat away, then you burn valves and seats.

To check which lifter you have, pull the valve cover off with the engine cold and see if you can push the push-rods down any. They should seem a little spongy with hydralics. If they are hydralic, you can adjust them with it running just as above post stated. Idle engine down pretty slow, then starting at the front, back each adjusting nut off and back the adjusting screw out till you hear the tic tic tic of loose rockers. You may have to go in and out a few times till you can start to hear the difference, Once you got the hang of the tic's' tighten back down 3/4 to 1 full turn after the ticing quits. Don't go to much more or you could bottom out the lifter, then you hurt things! Just move to the next in line as it doesn't matter what the order is. You can even do them twice, the second time should start to tic with 3/4 to 1 turn out. This is real easy once you get going. After you have done them all, shut off engine and tighten the lock nuts to the proper torque, clean up oil, and install cover.

As you see everybody has there way of doing things, you will find yours after awhile. This is like shopping for a new car. Its best to shop around and ask a lot of questions. You are doing great so far! Keep at it and keep us posted. This is what this site is all about. Joe

Thanks Joe... it really helps. I'm swapping out the fuel pump this afternoon so I can get the truck home. I will attempt to adjust the valves tomorrow night, if every thing goes well. i'll keep you guys posted.

Boswell