The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Yet another thread about oil... Now with updated goodness

Hello, everyone.

It's getting to be time to do an oil change on Number Seven. So, seeing as I don't know much about oil (aside from the fact that it's slippery and goes in the engine), I did a forum search and asked around. After reading the various threads (and there are lots), talking to my mechanic, and talking to my FLAPS guy, I am left with the following conclusions:

1) Multigrade oils are easier to pour when cold, and pump easier in a cold engine -- which reduces engine wear.

2) Multigrade oils never actually physically thicken to what a single weight would be, which can be hard on your engine once it warms up a bit.

3) Using an oil that is too thin is bad -- it pumps easy when it's cold, but it is too thin to lubricate well.

4) Using an oil that is too thick is bad -- it doesn't pump easy until it warms up, at which point it lubricates well enough.

5) The shop manual says to use SAE 20 oil when the external temp is 32° - 90° F. SAE 30 is what I should be using, should I ever run the truck heavily in weather that is over 90° F, because it's thicker and will lubricate better.

6) SAE 20 is "really thin".

7) The winter rating on multigrade oils only comes in when the temp is 0° C or below, which it never actually gets to up here except on rare occasions when I call in and stay home.

8) It seems that most of you guys that use single grade oils use SAE 30, but also, you aren't in the "Frozen North", where it only gets above 90° F about 30-60 days a year.

9) Don't use synthetic if you've been using regular oil for any amount of time.

10) Most new oil won't work in anything that I own. It has been reformulated to not gunk up in the dinky little engines coming to us from the east. Anything with a steel/iron cam should not use anything with that little "For use in gasoline engines" sticker/seal/graphic on the front of the bottle.

11) Most (if not all) of the oil at the FLAPS has that stupid little sticker/seal/graphic on it.

12) The oil with the sticker/seal/graphic would probably work fine with the addition of some sort of 3rd party anti-wear additive (which the FLAPS has)

13) Shell Rotella T is the way to go, because they still put that additive in there that keeps your camshaft from wearing out.

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Okay. Now that you have a fairly good idea as to what I've read/been told, here're my questions.

1) If SAE 20 is "really thin", why would the shop manual say to use it for most operating temps? Is it too thin? What was Chevy's reasoning?

2) If SAE 20 will work fine, but I cannot find any, is there a vendor that will sell me some Rotella T SAE 20 oil over the internet or by mail order?

3) If SAE 20 is unsuitable or unprocurable, will SAE 30 work fine? It's thicker, and doesn't pump as fast when it's cooler. Will this make a difference? Will this make a difference in the winter when I fire the old girl up periodically?

4) If SAE 30 won't work for me when it's colder out (I drive it April - October or November), then which multiweight oil should I get? I've seen some 20w50 kicked around, as well as 15w40. Will those multiweights be bad because they're thinner?

Any facts and opinions will be appreciated.

Brendan,

On a multi-grade oil, pour point depressants keep the viscosity 'thin' at low temps (0&deg), but it doesn't get 'thick' as it warms up....it just doesn't' get 'thin'. The parameters for measuring at 0&deg are different than at 210&deg.

Any oil will work in Old Number Seven! Some will work better than others...none will kill the engine. I'm not going to tell you if these comments are facts or my opinion. My bet is that this thread will go on for probably 50 posts, then the world will end.

Stuart

Those shop manuals & owner manuals are reprints from the originals when multiweight oil was not invented yet. Much has changed in the industry since then. I didn,t know about the cam wear problems with the preasant car oils till they were talked about on this websight. I am now using the diesel oil in all my flat tappet engines. The Shell Rotella & similar oils only come in 15W40 which is good in anything except real cold weather.

agree that rotella is good but am convinced that the synthetics are the way to go.

If 30 wt won't work for you because you drive in October and November, then I have troubles being that I drive 30 wt year 'round. It gets pretty chilly here in mid-winter, probably about as cold as November in the the state that looks like a kitten, er mitten.

My opinion: drive it April to November using 30 wt. When it is blustery cold, chances are you aren't driving it anyway.

Just my contribution to the 50-post thread.

Bill

I don't know if this will help or not but I'll throw this out there. I am an automotive machinist and I get questions about oil alot, and I have my own questions too. So I called Valvoline's tech line today. I was told that the VR1 racing oils have the zinc needed to keep flat tappet cams happy. They also told me any brands racing oils were safe. I have heard from Bullet Cams that the Rotella may not be safe much longer because of the introduction of converters on the new diesel trucks. If you look at the back of SAE 30 non-detergant oil, it says it is not recomended for most engines newer than 1963. I hope this helps, I'm sure some will disagree and honestly I'm alittle still unsure about what all this means but, this is the results of my reaserch so far. Good luck.

Sean

Brendan: when I was stationed in the "U/P" I ran 10-30 in my 58 Impala with 348/3duces. It was a little slow starting (battery) on the coldest days but otherwise no problems but I was only there for a year. It depends a lot on "Cold engine" ..."Hot Engine" as they both need different attention at at different times. I would think that engine oil had changed due to the CLOSER TOLERANCES(?) now used on most engines but I say that cautiously!! I know a LOT of folks in my warmer climate run SAE 30 year round, and some that run the multigrades and none have problems. I think any good grade will do good if vehicle is maintained regularly. During my life I have sworn by Quaker State, then Pennzoil, at one time I was a Shell Single G man, but for the past 30 years its been Valvoline or Castrol. Valvoline in HP engines and Castrol 10-30 for daily drivers. Heck. I remember years ago that I swore by Wolfs Head if any of you remember it. So, take your pick and good luck. I would heed the advice on the flat tappet lifters/cam's. I would also be careful as mentioned above on the Rotella until I knew for sure! Post #7 of 50

Blown 3 350 chevy engines in past 4 years using pennzoil. I feel the lack of zink has caused problems. Signed " LOOKING FOR ZINK IN MY OIL."
P.S. Flat tappet engines be ware.

Okay... Thanks for the comments, Guys.

I've done a little more digging on the flat tappet additive problem.

It seems that most new cars have a different type of cam that uses rollers, so the additive (It's called ZDDP) is not strictly necessary. It also -- supposedly -- is hard on Catalytic Converters and the auto manufacturers have requested that the oil makers stop putting it in for emmissions purposes.

I looked around for an alternative source of ZDDP, and found that most of the "additive" manufacturers make an oil additive (STP being the one that comes to mind first) that contains it, but many of these have Paraffin in them as well... And those CERTAINLY won't be going into my 216.

There is also a "Break in" additive that GM makes that is highly recommended as a ZDDP replacement on several websites and forums that I perused. It supposedly is just the chemical, with no paraffin or anything else that will gum up my engine. I think it's called "Engine Oil Supplement" or something similar.

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I went oil shopping last night, and it looks like the Rotella T SAE 30 is one of the last ones with ZDDP in it. It's an API SJ or SH oil, whereas the 15w40 that they make is an SM -- which is sans additive.

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[blinks]

Uh, okay...

Do I have it backwards?

If I run 10w30 in my 1999 Bonneville...

Is it an 10w oil with stuff in it that makes it lubricate like SAE 30 when it's warm or is it an SAE 30 oil that has stuff in it that keeps it from thinkening up (and makes it pour and pump like 10w) when it gets cold out?



Very true. I do fire the old girl up and let her run every few weeks in the winter, though. I just want to make sure I don't blow something up.


That's good to know. I know I can find VR1.

I've read that somewhere online. The Rotella 15w40 at my FLAPS and at Advance is already at an API SM rating, which AFAIK, means there's no zinc.

It's going into a 216 from '49, so I think we're safe there!

Yah, da UP gets preddy cold in da winner, dere.

I'm actually leaning toward using a multigrade, what with all the guys around here saying that it works fine.

I do know this... that POS 2005 Dodge that the company bought for me to run around in takes 5w20. I was a little bit surprised when I had the oil changed last. The guy at the oil change place said that was because of the way the bearings fit. I figured that he was full of crap -- they usually are -- but I heard the same thing from my mechanic not to long ago.

My dad had some problems with Penzoil a number of years ago and has been a Quaker State guy ever since. I just kept putting Quaker State in my stuff after I stopped driving his cars on a regular basis.

Ouch.

Brendan,

In an effort to get this thread up to my forecast 50 hits...and to explain what I think I know about multi-grades here is some dope!

If you take a quart of XXX oil and drop its temperature to zero, then measure its viscosity with the 'special viscometer' made for 0&deg oil it might read as a heavy old 40 weight. Mr. Chemist starts adding pour point depressants in until the oil flows through the 'special viscometer' and reads as a 10 weight! Mr. Chemist is halfway done...the oil flows as a 10W (W=winter which means measured at 0&degF), which means it has these characteristics as 0&deg F.

Now the oil his heated to 210&deg F and measured on a different 'special viscometer'...one calibrated for this temperature. The oil flows too easily, almost like water. Mr. Chemist adds viscosity improver's until the oil flows through the 'special viscometer' with the characteristics of a 30 weight oil. Now his job is done. The oil flows as a 10 weight at 0&deg and flows as a 30 weight at 210&deg...he has created a 10W-30 motor oil.

The original XXX oil would be very heavy at 0&deg and then the heat would thin it considerably at 210&deg. The modified oil doesn't do this and Mr. Chemist gets the Nobel Prize for his invention.

So...this oil doesn't get thicker with a rise in temperature, it just doesn't get as thin as a virgin oil would because of the goodies in it.

Stuart

So what you're telling me is that I only had half of it...

That explains the confusion.

Okay... so to further clear things up, let me ask this:

If 10w30 acts like a 10 winter when at 0°, and 30 weight when at 210°, What does that mean for an engine that runs at 160° most of the time?

Also:

Apparently it's not the API-SM rating that restricts ZDDP. It's the ILSAC GF-4 rating that does it. None of the Rotella I saw last night said anything about the ILSAC thing.

Brendan,

I don't know! Somewhere between the two viscosities would be my guess. This would be a question for the Shell answer-man.

Stuart

I put straight 20 in my splash oil engines and 10-30 in the newer stuff.

Do we even have one of those?

Where the hell did you find it?

Most might already know this, but some may not. The "American Petroleum Institute" is nothing more than the American oil companies, plus companies (domestic and international) that sell to them. It is the US oil company trade group, that's all.

Years ago I worked for a company that manufactured products that were used in the oilfield. The oil companies insisted the product be audited to "API standards" and carry the API logo. The API standard was just a rehash of ISO 900X, but with API-hired auditors. Authorization to use the log was given by passing the audit plus paying a licensing fee for use. I used to be impressed with the API, but now realize it is mostly a money-maker and lobbying arm of the oil companies.

Don't think for one minute, as I once did, that it is a collection of white-coated scientists that are determining which oil is better. The oil companies wouldn't do that to each other. Instead, they grade the products according to performance and make-up.

There is an interesting history of the oil specifying bodies (ILSAC, API, AAMA, JASO, etc.) at this website that is, not coincidentally, an Amsoil distributor.

Bill

TxLaTx,

I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me one bit. [grumbles under breath about money-grubbing bastiges]

I ended up putting Rotella 15w40 in.

Thanks guys.

Well Bren, if you ever get enough miles on it to tell how the oil performs let us know. That might take about 10 years to check outand you would have to tell my daughter( I'm checking out bout that time. :p

First time I bought it, was from Auto Zone.. I don't think they regularly carry it, but somebody had ordered a few cases of it and never came to get it so they put it out on the shelf.

I forget the brand name, but it had cartoonish drawings of a couple old cars and a truck on the label.

My local farm store sells the stuff in big like two gallon jugs.. but if you don't see it on the shelf, always ask.. most places that carry that kind of stuff can order it if you want it.. they just don't normally stock some things unless there is a demand.

API may be more than money grubbing, I dislike the oil companies as much as the next guy, but the API is bigger than just liquid oil, they also set the standard for weld quality in refineries and pipelines and a lot of other stuff.

Watch out for the newest generation Rotella T oils, already on the shelves in some stores!
They DO NOT have sufficient ZDDP levels any longer!

Make sure you get a rating earlier than the new CJ ratings.
My local part stores still carries the earlier CF rating on the shelves.
(the second letter shows the generation A,B,C,D,.... J is the newest and no longer has ZDDP)

I use Rotella T SAE40 all summer for the long hot freeway trips and SAE30 the rest of the year.
You can start easily with SAE30 around the freezing point - especially with older engines.

i've torn down several engines that used pennzoil - that shet has a tendancy to leave a LOT of wax behind. i wouldn't use it in a lawn mower...

Brendan,What oil pres did you have before the Rotella 15-40 and after you put the 15-40 in your 216 ? Thanks Don

I can't speak for all brands of synthetics, but I can state that the one I have been using and selling for 26+ years has 4 times the film strength of a similar weight petroleum oil. There is a series of tests that prove the superiority of synthetics over the petroleum oils in the lab every time, and it is the four ball wear test ( ASTM D 4172 B) and the shear viscosity test ( ASTM D 4683 ).
How an oil quickly pours has nothing to do with film strength of the oil.
The old wives tales about multi grade oils being inferior stem back to the 50's when they were inferior. The light portions of the oil were more volatile and would vaporize to quickly in heavy load industrial applications leaving the operator with sludge in the crankcase. By the 70;'s, the oil companies were forcet by the engine manufacturers to improve all multi grade oils which they did by adding better quality base stocks to their blends which virtually eliminated that problem, for a while.

Synthetics characteristicly have a flash point ~ 100 degrees higher than petroleum oils, a pour point approximately 30-40 degrees lower than petroleum oils, and are much less volatile.
Synthetics are better, but some are better than others. The major brand name on the bottle may not be an indication that it is the best synthetic oil.
The synthetic I am familiar with, will give you between 6% and 10% more horsepower on the dyno, or approximately 300 more rpm in a boat at full throttle, not to mention easier starting, less plug fouling, less wear, cooler operation and longer engine life.
Bob

I'm with Bob here, I run amsoil synthetic in all my trucks. I've even got dad running it in his truck now and he loves it.

Holy Old Thread goodness, Batman!

I was referring to this thread for the newer one, and I see that I stopped following it for some reason before it died. So, to begin updating...

So Far, So Good, Gazim!

[nods]

Makes sense. My FLAPS had some 20w20 that had the same story. They had only two quarts left, though, so I had to keep looking.

I can order whatever I want from my flaps, but I have to buy a case (not that I won't use it...)

Good to know. The stuff I picked up was Rotella T 15w40, and it was API-SL, ILSAC GF3, and CF or CG on the diesel end of things (can't remember). I will be sure to keep an eye out for that next time.

Also good to know.

I had about 5-15 before, and 10-20 now. It depends upon if I'm sitting at an idle, or the pedal to the metal. My Drain Plug has stopped dripping on my floor, too, so that's good.

Okay, I have question then. Can you switch to synthetic after having run dino juice for 28 years?

Someone here on the 'bolt said something about only switching on a newly rebuilt (or new) engine. Something about seals, gaskets, and piston rings.

I run AMSOIL: sae-60, 20w-50, even 10w-40. . .i takes a darn cold winter before go to 10w-40. . .

My ford has 15w-50 Mobile one in it right now we hit the 20's at night starts just fine. . .

My GMC runs straight 60 year round start's all winter with just a tap of the key. . .

Mike !

OK, maybe I am walking into something here, but I'll bite. 379MV6GMC why do you run such heavy oil in your truck? Straight 60 weight oil at 20 degrees? That oil has to be as yhick as half set concrete.

you could use synthitic in old motors but ithe rings and seals will leak some thing like that the particles are finer or something