Hi Chris...From your images your camshaft seems to have seen quite a bit of wear/age. I think there's a good chance it could be reground however I'd lean toward buying a new one...Melling makes one that would be good with your 261...CCS-1 as I recall is the number. The reason I say that is because regrinding will cost you around $175 plus shipping and a new one will cost you around $200 or so. The lifters could also be reground (probably) however I can't see enough from your images to make a call on them and I don't know how much sidewall wear they've seen. The bottoms of the lifters must be convex on the bottom (bowed out very slightly). I've seen some that were concave from use/wear. You want the convex situation so they will rotate while they're going up/down...there is an angle on each cam lobe that also causes rotation. If the lifters didn't rotate, the camshaft would just dig a ditch in them and they wouldn't last too long. And also I believe the rotation helps with sidewall wear as things go. On your camshaft, the shiny areas are where the cam has worn down over time...where the lobes run against the lifters. One gentleman who knows a lot about camshafts and lifters is Jerry (HotRod Lincoln). Hopefully he'll see this and comment.
edit...one way to check the bottoms of your lifters is by setting them on a flat piece of glass. That will let you see if they're convex (they will bobble around a bit) or if they're flat to concave (no bobble).
Last edited by Jon G; 11/03/20264:09 PM.
~ Jon 1952 1/2 ton with 1959 235 | T5 with 3.07 rear end
Thanks Jon G This is more an attempt to learn what to look for, with my cam as an example. My inclination was to replace the cam because of the pitting. And am going to get new lifters.
But this is the first cam I have looked at and actualy held in my hand so I saw an oportunity to learn. The lifters have a little concave to them.
As a concept I have heard about regrinding a cam and lifters but in actual practice my knowledge is zero.
The engine I am working on is a 235. My first rebuild, so I am treating it as a learn as I go type project.
Chris
Rock49 aka C-Rodg work in progress 1956 Chevy 3100 261 engine
Chris, that same Melling camshaft is very good for the 235 also and I have said here many times I am a big fan of the standard cam that was used in the 1959 and newer 235s. It provided more torque at lower rpms and was one of GMs first attempts at lowering bumper-to-bumper smog (more power at lower rpms meant less gas consumption). Mostly those were ground for hydraulic lifters but the same camshaft was used in most trucks with solid lifters. I say "most" because I'm positive early trucks came with solids...I'm not certain all the later ones did. You do need a different camshaft for hydraulic and solid lifters as hydraulic lifters need a somewhat slower or smoother opening ramp where the ramp on solids can give you faster opening and even faster valve closing. If you study the specs on the Melling cam and the 1959 Chevy 235 cam, you'll see they (like the early Corvette cam) get you to about the same spot. The thing I like about the stock 1959-1962 cam is the torque curve...it gives you almost maximum torque around 1600 rpm and then the torque line goes flat all the way over to around 2800 rpm. Gives you lots of interesting possibilities.
~ Jon 1952 1/2 ton with 1959 235 | T5 with 3.07 rear end
Jon G Based on the block numbers it looks like my block is a 59. It has the hydrolic lifters. So, as I understand it I will have to find a local Melling distributor for the cam. Is there a particular part number or just ask for the 1959 261 cam and it will work in the 1959 235?
Thank you. Chris
Rock49 aka C-Rodg work in progress 1956 Chevy 3100 261 engine
Hi Chris, Sorry...I thought you had a 261 with solid lifters for some reason. About 5 or so years ago I put together all the specs on the stock 1959 cam plus the Melling CCS-1 and the CCS-5 (which I could not find available for sale at the time) so that I could compare all of them. Somewhere I believe I may still have those numbers. The CCS-5 was very close to GM specs for the 1959 235 but it seems there were a couple of slight differences. I'm not at home currently...will look for that info when I return. I might know where a known good set of hydraulic lifters is however I'd need to do some checking.
As I have been told you can purchase the Melling CCS-1 or the CCS-5 camshaft now at places like Rock Auto and others. The price for either seems to be around $200.
~ Jon 1952 1/2 ton with 1959 235 | T5 with 3.07 rear end
I would re-use your original lifters , if possible. New hydraulic lifters kill rebuilt engines so frequently that some builders have given up. I personally know two engines that were destroyed by new hydraulic lifters failing in rebuilt engines during the run-in period. Both went with roller cams after the catastrophic failure of their new engines caused by the failure of the hydraulic lifters.
Re-grind the old ones and get a new Melling cam.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Jon G There was no confusion on your part. I caused the confusion. I have a 261 at my in-laws in central Arkansas. I live in Kansas City and bought the 235 as a winter/ learn as I go project. I just failed to put that in the first post. Thank you for the information on the melling cams.
As fir the differences from stock, I don't have any hands on experience with engines in general so I would not know the difference. Just book, video and hearsay.
Otto, Thanks for the advice. I will see if I can find a shop that will regrind the lifters.
I had seen in some YouTube videos Issues with cams and lifters for chevy 350s, I did not consider there could be an issue with 235s.
Dt235sd Thanks for the Melling CCS-6 reference.
All, Thank you for your time and effort in helping me.
So this is what I understand so far from your posts. Melling CCS-5 And Melling CCS-6 are hydrolic lifter cams which are close to stock specs.
Melling CCS-1 is for solid lifters.
Am I correct?
Chris
Rock49 aka C-Rodg work in progress 1956 Chevy 3100 261 engine
The issue with hydraulic lifters is across all makes and models of engines. If you can't get NOS ones, don't buy new ones.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
I used these guys a few months ago to re-surface my solid lifters. Reasonably priced and had them back in 3-4 weeks. Not in the engine yet so I can't speak to how they work out.
When you regrind lifters, you loose some length, which intern changes the rocker arm contact point on the valve stem. Well worn lifter that have been reground, could require longer pushrods to correct the rocker tip to stem contact point. This is an option for flat tappet lifters, https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/comp-dlc-flat-tappet-lifters-reliability-upgrade .
Look at Johnson-HYlift, Crower Camsavers, and Rhoads lifters, all three make very good lifters, I have no idea if the fit 235's or not. White box, no label lifter sets are NOT what you want, no matter what price they are.
I'm in Lee's Summit, near Lake Jacomo if you need some tools or help,
At what point in the build do I order the Cam? Chris
Any time, but make sure you get a set of new lifters, or at least get your old ones resurfaced. You'll need to use a good break-in lube and do the "20 minutes at 2,000 RPM" cam break in procedure. NEVER idle a new cam- - - - -as soon as you see oil pressure on the first startup, bring the RPM up to around 2K and run for 20 minutes or so. That establishes the running fit between the cam and the lifters. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Jerry, Do you have a recomendation for a good break-in lube?
Now this question is pure curiosity. Could Hydraulic lifters from a 350 or other engine interchange in a 235? Or, are the lifter specifications unique to each engine family?
Thank you Chris
Last edited by Rock49; 11/05/20261:40 AM.
Rock49 aka C-Rodg work in progress 1956 Chevy 3100 261 engine
The diameter of the lifter bores in the block of a stovebolt six is much larger than a small block V8. The closest match I've been able to find is a lifter (solid or hydraulic) for an AMC or a MOPAR V8. Those lifters would require a thin sleeve to be pressed into the stovebolt block and then reamed/honed for the proper running fit. I have done that on a 216 block, but I haven't gotten that project running yet. I was planning to use tie bar roller lifters for a MOPAR 440, until I discovered the difficulty and expense of getting a roller cam made for that engine. Now I'm thinking about using solid lifters the same diameter against a Melling CCS-1 flat tappet cam. ( www.ebay.com/itm/150812619057? ) Their cost is a fraction of the scarce and expensive stovebolt lifters, and they're much more available. The same sleeving procedure could be done to a later model stovebolt engine with hydraulic lifters, but the sleeves would need to be drilled for the lifter oil gallery. That approach will also require custom length pushrods, with appropriate end shapes for the stovebolt rocker arms and the MOPAR lifter shape. Smith Brothers (www.pushrods.net) says they can do that if I provide them with an example of the pushrod I need. I plan to make my own custom pushrods- - - -"It ain't rocket surgery!"
Comp Cams and the other aftermarket cam grinders sell a break-in lube that has the high pressure additives needed to handle the scuffing action of a cam lobe against the lifter base during the break-in run. On an engine with valve spring pressures as low as a stovebolt, regular motor oil or hypoid rear end lube would probably work, but cam lube is cheap insurance.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
When a lifter is resurfaced, its length is only changed by a few thousandths. All that's actually done is re-establishing the slight radius at the bottom to duplicate its original shape. That radius, along with the slight off-center position of the lifter VS the lobe center, makes the lifter rotate as it runs. A stovebolt rocker arm adjusting screw has 20 threads per inch, so that changes the effective pushrod length by .050" per turn. Refacing a lifter will probably use up less than half a turn of the adjusting screw. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Jerry, Since you can take off the push rod panel on the side of the 235 a person could check there lifters to see if they are rotating. So If you see that one is stationary, what would be the fix/ what are the potential issues? Thank you. Chris
Rock49 aka C-Rodg work in progress 1956 Chevy 3100 261 engine
dt235sd posted a camshaft specifications ID chart. What does it all mean?
Duration @.050 Advertised duration Valve lift Cam lift center line Rocker arm ratio.
So as I understand it. It's all about air flow and the amount of time intake and exhaust are open at the same time.
Based on this limited understanding I have made the following SWAG.
Center Line = is where the center of the lobe is located. For example CCS-5 has an Inrake CL of 108 degree and exhaust center line of 110 degree so there is a 2 degree amount of shared time in which both are open.
Duration @.050= No idea.
Valve lift= How high the valve opens . I.E. CCS-5 Intake opens 4 tenths.
Cam Lift= I would assume how high the lobe lifts; but shouldn't it be the same as the valve lift. So.. No Idea.
Rocker arm ratio= No Idea.
Looking forward to increasing my knowledge. Thank you Chris
Rock49 aka C-Rodg work in progress 1956 Chevy 3100 261 engine
As far as rocker arm ratio, that's a function of the length of the arms on either side of the rocker shaft. It can increase the valve lift over the cam lift.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Rock49, I am not Jerry (not by a long shot), but if the lifters are rotating in their bores, the push rods should also rotate. A slightly bent pushrod or one with a buggered-up end at the rocker arm may not spin even though the lifter does.
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
Right on the money, Carl- - - - -if a pushrod isn't spinning as the engine runs, it should definitely be checked to see if it's bent. An engine doesn't have to be running to check for lifter rotation. Simply spinning the crankshaft with the starter with the spark plugs removed will generate enough spin on the lifters to see them, and the pushrods turn. I check for bent pushrods by rolling them on a piece plate glass, cut to be a little shorter than the overall length to let the bulged ends hang off the edges. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Duration at .050" is the amount of rotation degrees the valve is open starting at .050" after opening to .050" before closing. It's very hard to see on a dial indicator when the valve starts to open from zero lift, it could be 15 degrees or more of rotation before the valve is at .050" open, same with closing. So as an industry standard, the cams are advertised with duration @ .050", it's easy to see on an indicator. The first and last .050" is very hard to measure accurately, it usually takes a dial indicator that reads in 10,000's to get a somewhat accurate reading.
Valve lift is just that, the amount of lift the valve head moves off the seat.
Camshaft lift is how much total lift the lobe has from its base circle.
Rocker arm ratio describes how much more lift the valve has over the camshaft. A typical V8 usually has a 1.5 ratio where the valve moves 1.5 times as much as the lifter does. Race engines increase the ratio up to 1.7, 1.8, 1.9 etc.... you gain lift as the ratio increases. It comes at a cost though, you increase pressure on camshaft, pushrods, and rocker arms as the ratio increases. With the older engines like the 235 that didn't get a lot aftermarket parts, you are stuck with factory spec parts, where as a small block Chevy has everything you can imagine from the aftermarket suppliers. Also, the camshaft bore in the block dictates how much lift a camshaft can have. It must fit in the hole. Higher ratio rocker arms gives more lift over the camshaft phisical limits.
Centerline of a cam lobe is the point dead center of the total duration of the lobe.
All these number describe the timing of the valves to the location of the pistons. More lift equals more time for air to enter and exit the cylinder, longer duration means the valves are held open longer for more time to fill and empty the cylinders. Lift and duration do the same thing. The amount of air flow a head can supply is directly related to camshaft choice. If the cylinder does not flow air at high valve lift, there no need for a high rocker ratio. A 235 head does not flow a lot of air, thus the very mild camshafts.
