The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline 3600 "Drivability"...What to do?

Hi all! New member long time lurker here. Just did a post in the new member welcome section a week ago...

Please forgive me for resurrecting an already-beaten-to-death horse, but I have yet to find the answers / advice to help me decide on the next steps for "Spud."
You see, Spud is a 3600, and a daily driver 3/4 is sorta not common, and many of the typical answers that apply to 3100s are not applicable to us, or at least don't seem to be discussed often in the online encyclopedia of collective forum knowledge...

We've had Spud for nigh on a decade now, and in that time we have done a lot of mechanical restoration, mostly farmed out to an old-timey shade tree mechanic that lived down the road. I say lived, past tense, because he moved last year several states away....now this particular mechanic had his own very strong opinions about how the fixing up should go, and due to my lack of time, he mostly got his way - that is to say, some things were restored / rebuilt when I think they should have been upgraded to more modern options for drivability's sake...

All this to say, we have spent a fair chunk of change on Spud at this point and have a mostly mechanically restored stock truck.
When we started out ten years ago, I was hoping for some slightly more modern upgrades to improve "driveability", and by that I largely mean gearing and suspension. The ride is harsh, and the rear end is 4.57 with the SM420 trans.
I had originally thought an S10 frame swap would be the best bang for the buck, providing a better ride, power brakes, relocated fuel tank, easier to get parts, etc...I have read MANY threads on the pros and cons of this, and the sacrilege of ditching a perfectly good stock frame. From my perspective, it still seems like a great and very economical option to accomplish many upgrades at once. We would be ditching many things we have already spent money on, such as Tires, rims, rebuilt wheel hubs, bearings, brakes, fuel tank, lines, etc.

This is a daily driver work truck and I very much want to improve ride quality, braking, fuel economy, and remove the fuel tank from the cab.
A mustang 2 doesn't seem like the right path, and is frankly out of our price range. I have read about the Dakota front end, but I don't know how that would work out in the rear to have the same axle bolt pattern.
I'd like a different transmission. 4 or 5 speed. I wouldn't mind switching to a 3100 solid front axle if we could get the ride quality better at the same time.

Spud needs new springs all around, and new kingpins and steering, so it's a good time to figure this out. New leaf packs plus the other parts is going to add up to about $2k, and it seems like I could get some upgrades in there for less money.

The other factor is where I live there isn't much to pull from junk yards as far as front end clips, frames, etc... and there aren't any folks actually working on similar trucks for me to hang around...I'm on my own out here...

Any and all advice / opinions are greatly appreciated! I have learned a lot from this forum already...

Cheers,
Will

If you're determined to do a resto-mod, why not consider grafting the sheet metal onto a complete Dakota frame and powertrain? The Dakota has a very simple rectangular tubing frame that can have the wheelbase altered easily with a 45 degree angle cut and some fish plates at the graft. Start with a long bed Dakota, and shorten it to fit the Chevy wheel openings. All you need to do then is shorten the driveshaft. You could even opt for the V-8 Dakota if you want a little extra performance, although both Dakotas I own have plenty of power with the V-6. Then the entire 3600 rolling chassis could be sold to a restorer with more conventional requirements.

Your checkbook will need some CPR, no matter how you choose to do a resto-mod! Good luck!
Jerry

First you need to define "drivability".

A 75 year old 3/4 ton truck is not going to perform or handle anything at all like a modern vehicle no matter how well restored. Merely adding radial tires makes a dramatic improvement in handling and ride quality of any antique vehicle but all of the technology on the truck is still 75 year old design.

I don't own any modern vehicles and use all of them as daily transportation and work vehicles, including the 1950 1/2 ton pickup. In fact, Ol' Roy is my primary work vehicle. I don't ever expect any of my vehicles to perform as a new vehicles and don't attempt to drive them as such.

If your truck is already completely restored, you'd be better off selling it and using the money to buy a customized pickup truck that handles the way you think you want yours to handle. No amount of "upgrades" to your existing truck are going to make it perform or handle anything like a modern vehicle. You'll spend thousands of dollars more on the truck and you'll still be disappointed.

There are plenty of AD trucks out there for sale with V8 engines, Mustang II front ends, and automatic transmissions. Shop around for one of those and go test drive it. See if that's what you really want.

Hey guys! Thanks for the fast responses!

Jerry: Thanks for the thoughts on the Dakota. It seems more "truck-like" than the S10 option to me. I've had S10's and other than the engine they're not all that great...I have no interest in a "restomod" as I understand the meaning of the term - big wheels, lowered, v8 power, corvette suspension, etc...and the checkbook has already taken a hit, unfortunately we didn't arrive at what I was hoping the first go-round. Water under the bridge.

Otto: I have read many similar to responses to yours in other threads, and I understand your argument. However please understand I'm not looking for a 75 year old truck to perform like a "modern" vehicle.
I think I summed up my goals pretty well - better ride quality, better brakes, and better gearing spread for drivability. I'm perfectly happy with manual steering and brakes, just want to be safe going 55...and the fuel tank out of the cab so we don't have to smell gas every time we drive! I would probably be fine with a stock-ish 3100, but that's not what came our way...

I don't want a V8, I love inline 6's, I don't want an automatic, and I actually really like the way Spud steers with his solid axle. My goals are a modest improvement in drivability over stock, which doesn't seem like it should be too hard to accomplish. I looked into the Posies super slide front springs but they said they are a no-go with the 235...too heavy.

As I said before, I'm looking at about $2k to redo the suspension and steering, and it seems like that money could be spent to upgrade a few things. After axle fuel tank is $500, I should be able to get a Dakota or S10 truck frame with trans and all for that.

A possible scenario that I have come up with is put a M21 or T5 in, find a 3100 front axle and put discs on, figure something out for rear axle to match bolt pattern but fit 3/4 frame width...but then I'm still stuck with a very rough ride from the front end...

P.S. It would be great to find a few other trucks to drive just for comparison, but I don't know of any near me...

Here is the go to for S10 conversion. https://www.coffeeandcustoms.com/ad-s10-kit--fab-parts.html

You don't really need to reinvent the wheel to get what you are after. The ride quality can be softened by doing just a few small things like shocks and removing a couple of leaf springs. If you your springs are worn beyond repair/rebuild, replacements can be found. Older springs will give a softer ride than say a new firm leaf pack. Rebuilding your current leaf packs and adding some sliders is not that difficult. A set of good gas shocks and Radial tires will go a long way towards improved ride quality. The addition of a front Anti Roll bar will help as well. Getting everything tight and correctly aligned up front is a major key to having a safe and drivable truck. These old trucks actually steer pretty easy once everything is adjusted properly.

As for gearing, the right combination is not that difficult to accomplish. Certainly the addition of an overdrive is a great idea, but only if you do your homework. While a lot of folks are opting for a T5 swap, in a 3/4 Ton truck that may not be your best choice depending on how you want to use the truck. With the correct tire size and the right rear gear your 3 speed or a 4 speed will do just fine. I say this after chasing a '48 3600 through the East Kentucky mountains this past fall. He had a solid 261 with a SM420 and 3.90- rear gear, running 65 MPH while pulling a 20ft camper (Ask PaPa Joe!).

I will say this, "Do your Homework". if the total package is what your after, a true daily driver that has the ability to work , it can be accomplished. Start with a goal in mind and plan toward that build, everything you do will add to the overall goal. Remember, make it safe, make it STOP, make it steer then make it go...

OK, that's a lot more information that helps us get what you want out of the truck you have.

I use my 100% stock 1950 3100 as regular transportation. I drive it on the interstate at 55-65mph on a weekly basis. It has a 216, 3spd, 4:11.1 rear end.

The ride quality improved dramatically when I replaced ridiculously wide 15" rims and tires with the correct diameter 16" rims and narrower radial tires. The larger the outside diameter of the tire, the faster you can drive at lower engine RPM. The factory tires were 30+ inches in diameter. With the proper diameter and narrow width tires, steering the truck became easy rather than a chore.

New shock absorbers were the next best improvement to keeping the truck from shaking all over the place every time I hit a bump or pothole.

You mentioned that your springs, kingpins and steering is worn out. Repairing all of those items will make a night and day difference in how you perceive the drivability of the vehicle. Any slop in the steering gear and steering linkage will be amplified in the steering wheel and make driving a scary, unpleasant experience.

I can let go of the steering wheel at 60 mph and the truck drives straight and true. Going over potholes doesn't yank the wheel out of my hands. In fact, I regularly drive with one hand on the wheel and never feel like I'm going to lose control if I'm on a rough rode.

My truck has properly rebuilt Huck drum brakes and stops without any drama. No fear of exiting a freeway at 60mph and not being able to stop.

Guys, thanks again for the thoughts!

Trust me, I have done a lot of research. I didn't just put this post up all willy nilly to waste your time
I will try to address all points below.

I definitely don't want to reinvent the wheel. I do however wish I had been able to do some modernizing at the beginning before we spent so much rebuilding old tech - not that I don't like old tech, but I feel there is a sweet spot somewhere from the late 60's into the early 90's... I pushed for some things when we did the first big round of work, and I just wasn't able to make it happen because the mechanic we hired (I worked with him, but he was the expert) didn't want to do it. Ironically, he daily drives a '49 1/2 with a G-body front clip and rear axle, so I know he knows... He was all hung up on the fact that it was a 3/4.

So, one of the first things we did when we got the truck was put on a fresh set of stock-ish size radial tires, in 215/85-16, and new shocks all around. The tires are E load range, which the tire shop insisted was required, and I know that adds to the stiff ride. Height from ground to top of tire is around 29.5, wheels are a stock replacement single piece 16x (6 or so, can't remember). Truck steers great, no problems there.

As far as rebuilding stock front leaf pack: I wish I could test drive a 3100 or 3600 with a stock front suspension in good order - it would help a lot for the sake of comparison.
When we got the truck, I would bounce so much going down the road that I hit my head on the cab ceiling a few times. That had to stop.
I took two leafs out of the front leaf pack, to make it 6 - and that did soften things a bit, but at the expense of handling. It's pretty scary if you hit a bad bump in the road over about 30 mph.
The kingpins aren't toooo bad, but they should be done. The tie rod ends are pretty shot. The leaves themselves are too far notched to be reused - some are notched almost half way through.

I know the conventional wisdom is to get new leaf packs, add the sliders (UHMW plastic?) and be done with it. It just seems that for less $$ I could do better. (One possibility here is to scour some local junkyards for leaf packs that are the same dimensions and rob those, but that's a lot of work, plus the nearest local junkyard that might possibly have something is hours away).

The brakes were rebuilt with machined drums, new shoes, cylinders and associated hardware. I was told we got the last pair of rear brake cylinders in the country available for that HO52...
All the soft lines are new. Brakes work well enough, but I've never tested them at highway speeds, and frankly it makes me a bit nervous. Still have the old style MC under the floor.

The cab floor was redone with welded patch panels, and the cab mounts were done at the same time. (When we got the truck, one of the front mounts was poking through the floor). When driving on uneven surfaces, which is often, there is some 'oilcanning' of the cab - I can tell because the steering column mount at the dash creaks and pops and was broken in the past (rewelded).

As far as trans. I have read the tech tip on getting the 68-72 center section to gain a 4.11 or 3.9 ratio, and have looked for a donor for almost 10 years with no luck. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough Even when I've come across a possible option, the logistics have been too difficult to get it.

I have looked at axle ratio / trans combinations, and I see the 3100s with the SM420 option running the 3.9 / 4.11, so it seems reasonable that I could keep the trans and find a lower rear gear. The problem is, it's not just highway gearing - I don't like the gear spread for around town either, and it's a loud trans. I don't need a granny gear.
I actually think putting a T5 in while keeping the 4.57 rear end would probably work out pretty well, as long as it was an S10 T5 not a higher-geared Camaro one.

I'll probably just end up getting new front springs, rebuild the other worn out stuff up there, and put in a different trans. It just irks me that it's going to cost a fair bit more to do that compared to something like a front clip or S10 frame swap.

I'll take some pictures of the front end when I get a decent weather window...

At least it's not a boat - now those are a money pit!

Since you have a 3/4 ton instead of a 1/2 ton, going with a T-5 will be a dream compared to what needs to be done to a 1/2 ton for a T-5 swap.
You can use your current rear axle without having to do anything except coming up with a long driveshaft to go from the T-5 to your rear axle.
A T-5 with an overdrive of .73 and 30.5" radial tires will put you right where you need to be for pulling a stump and dragging it down the road at 65 MPH without making the inline 6 scream, even with your 4.57 rear end ratio. I have a 4.64 ratio in my '50 half ton with all of the above and it is amazing. 18 MPG to boot as well.
If you rebuild everything having to do with steering and all of the spring bushings a pins, you will notice how nicely these trucks handled when brand new.
After all of that, if the ride is stiffer than you like, you can remove a spring or two from each spring pack to soften the ride.

I also have a 3600 and understand your challenge with finding information for the 3600 rather than the 3100. My project journal is kind of long but may provide some 3600 specific insights.

I currently have the stock suspension but have upgraded the tie rod ends to more modern variety and replaced the drag link with an adjustable one but that was in large part due to my engine swap requiring relocation of the steering gear.

I also looked for a 4.10 center section for my 4.56 rear axle withotu success so I converted to a 14-bolt rear axle using the process outlined in a Tech Tip on this website. That provided newer type rear brakes but still drums.

I know there are a lot of T5 transmission projects but I chose to use an NV3500 to get a 5 speed with overdrive. I had a custom drive shaft made to connect the NV3500 to the 14-bolt axle. I chose to install a SBC engine but with my transmission, axle, and tire combination I am running about 2100 rpm at 60 MPH.

You may want to look at yout seat springs as I assume that you still have the original bench seat. I converted to '90's vintage Chevy truck seats to get integrated seat belts but also improve the seat performance (in my opinion). I was always planning to relate the fuel tank but the seat change made it mandatory (no space left for the in cab tank).

I installed an under bed fuel tank but because of the narrow frame rail spacing of the 3600 was limited to a 16 gallon Tanks Inc. version. I chose to run the filler out the passenger side through the bedside (below the floor) with the filler located in the back side of the rear fender.

I do not have a lot of miles on my truck as it just got to the point of being road worthy recently. I do drive on country roads that are anything but smooth and flat and don't think the ride is that bad and my steering is pretty good even bouncing around at 60+ mph.

If you have any questions about things 3600 specific please feel free to send me a PM.

I also have and restored a 3600 chevy. I wanted to keep the running gear as original as I found it. It had a 59 235 in it that was stuck on number 4 cylinder. I also wanted to be able to drive it to car shows and not have it screaming to go 55mph. I have the sm 420 4 speed transmission. I opted to put a Gear Vendors overdrive unit on the back of the sm 420. That gave me a 3.56 final ratio in 4th gear. My Eaton rear end had the 4.56 typical of the 3/4-ton trucks. The OD unit made the truck nice to drive. They cost quite a bit, but I think it was well worth it to keep my truck with much of the original running gear it had when I bought it. I completely went through the 235 and added some enhancements. Twin exhaust manifolds and twin progressive two-barrel carbs. It runs perfect, plenty of power and sounds nice. I removed the hot water to the intake manifold because in hot weather the intake got too hot. I never had any dead spots accelerating when the engine was cold, so warm intake manifold is not necessary with the Weber twin carb set up. I re-jetted the carbs myself to match my set up. My truck drives and handle very nice with the solid front axle. I rides better than my 2000 F250 power stroke. I have radial on the original split 8 bolt15" rims. My truck being a 47 has the lever type shock absorbers that still work well. Just added oil to them. I replaced the front springs because they were a messed up hodge podge of leaves miss matched and such. My tie rods and kingpins were in excellent condition so nothing but lube to them. I started in 2021 and finished in August of 2023.

"Spud" should be an Idaho truck.

"At least it's not a boat" What? What about the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival?

Check for a PM about my Sande Ace on Hood Canal.

Awesome! This is great boots on the ground info!
I am going to proceed with trying to acquire an appropriate T5 or such as a start. I don't know anything about and NV3500 but I know there are adapters you can buy to bolt the T5 to the 'bolt...
Will report back when I have made some progress and am stuck and have questions!

Wally - Haha I just saw your post. Spud was a farm truck in Idaho until a friend bought him and brought him over to Port Townsend. That's why we named him!
I work on boats for a living...so I know what it's like! I have a few friends who live in south PS and have a Sand Ace or two... do you go to the rendezvous? I've been a couple times...

Lumber, thanks for sharing. Beautiful truck! A GV is more than I want to spend vs. a 5 speed swap, plus I think with the 5 speed you get a more streetable spread of gears...
Thanks all for helping me on my way...I love this forum

A T-5 out of an early to mid 80s S10 is what you need to look for. They have the gear shifter in the right place to clear the bench seat, and will except your stock speedometer cable. Most if not all of those that came with the 4 cylinder engine came with the .73 overdrive.

If your serious about a T5, you really need to read up on what Jay (Lugnutz) has put together. Jay has pretty much become the go to guy around here for information on the T5's, he has some great videos to help you along.

http://lugnutz65chevystepside.weebly.com/t5-info-page.html

Thanks, I have read a bit about the T-5 conversion and the tech articles on here, but it's been awhile. I thought the 88-93-ish ones were the thing to get because they were stronger and still had the mechanical speedo. I've got a line on an '89 T-5 out of a 2.8 truck for $250...I'm planning to go buckets and after-axle tank so shifter placement is a little less critical than if I was keeping the bench...but I will refresh my knowledge!

Samllwwb - Here's a useful T5 Identification link that gives info on the units based on the original stamped metal tag/sticker codes. It lists the applications they were originally used for as well as gear ratios, including the final OD ratio. Good information to help you verify what you are getting.

As far as the mechanical speedometer equipped T5s, according to the above linked Lugnutz info page, the S10 T5's through 1988 seemed to be mechanical and 1989 and later have the VSS electronic speedometer setup.

I would suggest you double check the speedo output on the one you intend to piurchase. If you're wanting to stick with a manual speedo cable setup you will have to modify a VSS equipped transmission or acquire an electronic sensor that converts to a manual cable drive unit (both of which folks have done in the past) to make it do you want.

It’s possible to swap the electronic speedometer tailpiece for a mechanical tailpiece. I don’t know all the details but they sell mechanical speedometer tailpieces on eBay.

FWIW ...

The OP should check out our Tech Tips for the article on swapping out the center section of the Eaton HO-52/72 rear axle for better speeds

It can be found here

Assuming, of course, the OP still retains the 3600's original HO52 rear axle.

Anyway, getting better "drive-ability" (whatever THAT means ...) is way easier for 3/4 and 1-ton AD trucks than for the 1/2-tons. I can cruise on the highway in my 3804 at 65 mph, as well as cruise around town. All I did was change out the center section in the rear as per the article (we actually wrote that article from the experience gained in doing my truck). I retain the original SM-420 trans (1st gear becomes a real 1st and not just a granny 1st. Still unsynchro'd though ...), the original everything else. While I did upgrade to a 261, the mod works great with a 235 as well. The gearing change is a little on the tall side for the original 216 that was in my truck.

I run 17 inch wheels, though... The steering works fine (my truck is low mileage and garage kept since new). I still run Huck brakes (they take more care and feeding than Bendix, and you have to drive defensively). My gas tank is still in the cab. I don't smell gas and I've smoked plenty of cigars in my truck. I've run this site for 30 years now and I have yet to hear about an AD blowing up.

Just my opinion, but I think 3600 and 3800 owners sometimes get carried away and make this harder than it needs to be. Trying to figure out best gear sets for a T-5, figuring out custom drive shafts, tranny mounts and bell housing adapter .... yikes. So while all these guys (with 1/2-ton experience... just sayin') are telling you all these crazy gyrations to go through (if you get this T-5 you have to do this, that, and all the other things... and its still a car tranny, by the way ...) ... Just switch out the rear axle center section and be done with it. Easy peasey. When I want easy, comfy driving experience, I take Miss Peggy's VW.

I know, I know ... there are some real T-5 die hards out there... and Jay ... I love you like the brother you truly are to me .... but .... T-5s may be the cat's butt for a 1/2-ton, I'm just not that convinced they are all that and a bag of chips for 3/4 and 1-tons.

"Rock crawlers LOVE T-5 trannies!" Said no one ever.

If the OP stays with his original brakes, just go through them and make sure they're good for highway speeds. And if you don't already have them, put some seat belts in your truck.

Most stovebolt engines are HP rated around 3500 RPM or a bit more. Very few people are comfortable running one above 2500 or so, which means they're ready to shift to the next higher gear just about the time the engine is just barely above the max torque range, and nowhere near its max power level. That's not the engine's fault- - - - -some "driver education" needs to be done!
Jerry

The OP mentions a budget of two grand.. I don't think any frame or front clip swap could happen for two grand, especially if OP can't weld and fabricate and do wiring, and if you change the WB on the swap frame there are Ackerman angles to consider.

I'd think the taller rear gears vs T5 or NV3500 (probably where I'd go, I was never hyped on the T5 for durability behind the original four popper, let alone a bigger truck) conversation is the one to have, for two grand. Also yes on springs and kingpins replacements, then have it aligned and the caster angle checked.

John,
I rode with you in Charlie one day a few years back and I agreed with you then as I still do today, your truck does not need a T-5.
However, If one were to have a 3/4 ton truck, they would need your 17 inch rims and the taller tires that you have on your 1 ton to realize the same results that you have,
How tall are Charlie's tires?

I researched a lot of tires trying to get ones as tall as the rollers on 17" rims that came with my 3600 (34 1/2"). The best I could do (going to a 16" rim was about 32" but I settled for just over 30" to get a width that would help low speed steering.

Hey guys, wow, thanks for all the responses!

I re-read the "lugnutz" link posted above and saw that the <'88 S10 T5's have the mechanical speedo, and the camaro T5's were mechanical up to '93...that is probably what I was remembering from years ago when I was researching this before we did the engine rebuild...will certainly sus out any trans I find to make sure it is the right tailpiece.

Mr. John M - thanks for chiming in and for keeping such a great resource alive! As I mentioned earlier, I looked for a center section to put into my HO52 for many years, with no luck. I'm not exactly in the best location to find stuff like that unfortunately. Also, the SM420 is rather loud until you get into 4th gear, and I'd like to have something quieter if possible...but I would not be opposed to trying the gear swap if I could find a good donor, or just swap the whole axle in there...I called around to all the junkyards within a several hour radius from me, several times over the years, with no luck. I have come across some options on facebook marketplace, but nothing has panned out.

I am definitely concerned about putting a 5 speed designed for the iron duke behind the 235...but they also came behind the 4.3 V6 and the 350, so I know they can be stout. I also have a line on a '92 camaro T5, but the guy wants a grand for it which I think is steep.

As for the in-cab tank...maybe you can't smell the gas because the cigar smoke drowns it out? just a thought, hehe...

The $2k price tag was just suspension / steering replacement parts, as I priced them out online. No trans, no labor.

Honestly I'm surprised that so many people get hung up on the term "drivability"...maybe it's a generational thing? (I'm in my early 40's, so a gen X-er.) I have owned and driven lots of trucks, full size, small size, 2wd, 4x4...some of them I would say had good drivability, some not so much. I think I mentioned this before, but what I'm looking for is a ride that won't rattle your teeth out or bounce you off the seat driving around town, and a comfortable gear spread so that in-town driving doesn't feel like a tractor pull, and 55 mph isn't screaming the engine. Pretty simple.
I had an OBS F150 regular cab that fit that description, as well as a few Toyotas and S10's. That is the ballpark I'm going for. I've only ridden in a few classic trucks besides Spud, and none of them had a stock front end suspension.

We're heading out of town on vacation for a few weeks, and when I return I will be looking to pick this back up and make some progress. Gotta clear a spot in my shop - too many boats in there right now!

Cheers all and happy holidays!

Tronman - I would respectfully challenge that a frame / front clip swap would be more expensive. - More time-consuming, absolutely - but Frames and front clips are available in my area for as little as $500 or less. I have a basic MIG setup, and several friends who are professional marine welders, so I'm not too concerned about that part of it.

I know I might be butting heads with traditionalists here, but my philosophy is if it gets you out driving your truck instead of something else, it's worth doing it. I dropped out of my local car club for exactly that reason - no one drives their darn classic, they just sit in the garage like trophy queens to be driven on fair days a few times a year...not my thing!

Smallwwb - Just a note to say it's your truck and your decision on what goals you have and how you get to them. No need to be "...butting heads..." with anyone and your choices are accepted for what they are - yours.

Folks have and will offer suggestion on what their experiences have been and things they did to get there, in the hopes it may save you some possible trials and tribulations, but not all those things will fit in with your goals and plans so it's your choice to accept or decline those suggestions.

If you are yet deciding what your end goals are (T-5 or rear axle swap, etc), I'd suggest you decide those choices first, then you can focus an asking specific questions to let us help you achieve your goals.

Cheers to you and a Happy Holidays as well!

Carl -- True enough about the taller wheels and tires. I doubt the 4.11 gear set/SM-420 combo would be as good with the smaller wheels and tires. I can't be any more definitive than that w/o personal experience or access to that fancy gear ratio calculator thingy someone referenced somewhere.

When did you ride with me in Charlie??? I let you get in *my* truck???????

Smallwbb -- it sortta sounds like you already had a path in mind from the beginning which is fine. I just hope the input you received helped you refine your plan. We *do* have traditionalists here. I am one. So, ergo, the site/forum tends to have a bit of a built-in bias in that direction. About 25 years ago, I had to be strong-armed into letting those demon-possessed hooligans (i.e., hotrodders ... see mnsmith's avatar ) come in here. I kinda onboard with it now, having become demon possessed myself ( I put a 261 in my truck ... shriek!! Gasp!!!). So its not really a matter of butting heads, more like ... pig headedness on our parts. Some people may have a challenge in telling the difference between being ignored and having their experience-based input heard, considered but ultimately filed away and not used.

As long as we have helped you make an informed decision, then we've had a great day.



Just remember to set enough cash aside to get Jerry to turn your 216 into a modernized fire-breathing monster!

And oh by the way (speaking of being pig headed ... at times ... ) ... Jerry, you'll be proud of me in that I have come a long way -- I got my torque wrench out, consulted the bolt-size torque specs, and properly torqued the lug nuts on my M-38A1 the other day (65 ft-lbs).

LOL! I have a long history of building "sleepers"- - - -highly modified cheater engines that could fool the tech inspectors at the "street stock" inspection line at a bunch of oval tracks- - - -paved and dirt. There's nothing like having a "stock appearing" 216 engine with all modern parts inside, and 258 cubic inches! My patron saint was Smokey Yunick- - - - -the guy who knew how to bend the rules at Daytona to his advantage so well that they tried to ban his cars! Proud of ya, John- - - - -if you can do it, anybody can!
Jerry

SOOO much good information by several people here that want you to be successful.

The quote above by the esteemed HRL rings especially true for me. I have a 3.90 rear and a .7 overdrive which gives me an effective 2.73 that makes for great highway cruising. On any highway travel west I need to climb a mountain pass. Since I installed two column mounted gauges, a tachometer and a vacuum gauge my gear changing has been dramatically different. In order to achieve the sweet spot of the vacuum gauge and the rpm's that HRL speaks of above I now charge over the pass in third regular, optimizing the vacuum and efficiency of the engine. Don't be afraid of a little noisy work going on by the engine, peak engine performance may require it!

John Milliman, "I still run Huck brakes (they take more care and feeding than Bendix, and you have to drive defensively). My gas tank is still in the cab. I don't smell gas and I've smoked plenty of cigars in my truck. I've run this site for 30 years now and I have yet to hear about an AD blowing up."

Like John, I'm totally on board with Hucks and gas tank where it's supposed to be.

John,
The time that I rode in Charlie was that day when you needed a strong back to pick up something heavy from the farm to the most recent Wrenchfest location.
I lied and said that I was your huckleberry, then proceeded to pretend to help you lift whatever it was.

Both Spicer and Clark made 5-speed overgear transmissions that have the Early GM bolt pattern. I understand that Clarks are hard to find parts for but the Spicers may still be an option. There are old-time truck wrecking yards still where you might pick one up. Aside from a little hammer work on the floor pan it's a bolt-in. Being truck transmissions of another era, they still aren't quiet but hell-for-stout compared to a T5. At the ATHS show in Salina UT a fellow looking at my 4x3 setup said, "ya know they make a 10-speed road ranger for light duty... Top gear on a Road Ranger is an overdrive, around 0.85 or so. I still have the 4x3 setup.

Roadrangers are for wimps- - - - -it takes a real trucker to handle two shifters! I put a lot of miles on a 1958 B-73 Mack with a 5 X 3 Tri-Plex transmission!
Jerry

Great information for Smallwwb to work with. We have started to veer away from the original post and this thread will be locked. Thanks to all who have contributed.