The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Tool Chest Mig conversion on wire welder

I have a Hobart Handler 125 & am thinking of converting to mig. The kit is about $90 less the bottle. I wonder if it's worth it. Or, should I sell it and buy a dedicated mig welder. I just do hobby type welding. Has anyone done this conversion? How did it work? Thanks

Shipwright,
If you have room in your shop why don't you keep the stick welder AND buy a little mig machine. Field conversions seem like they never work quite right to me. If the stick machine is AC/DC, you could make a neat TIG unit out of it. Sears has (or had) a nice frequency unit, and gas cooled tig torches are dirt cheap. Just think, you could tig stuff together just like Pauli, Vinnie and Big Fathead Paul!!


Stuart.

I do not think you can convert a std stick welder to a MIG welder. I think Shipwright has a wirefeed welder that is probably using flux-core wire w/o the welding gas. I have a 110V Lincoln wirefeed welder and I purchased the gas conversion kit for it and it works great. All I believe I did to convert it was change the wirefeed guide sleeve, change the tip, install the gas fittings, hose, and add a tank and regulator. I bought my regulator and connecting hose off Ebay and purchased my MIG gas and tank from a local welding shop. I am on my 2nd tank of gas and the quality of the welds are much better with gas than with the flux-core wire setup I was using. Good luck.

Yeah guys, I have a flux core wire feed that I can buy a kit for to make it a Mig. Just some hoses and regulator for 90 bucks but I will still need a bottle of gas. I like it cause its 110 volt. I never weld anything over 3/16" anyway. I have read about a really good wire for sheet metal that I want to try. It's called "Twenty Gauge" That's the brand name not the size. It's actually .030 wire. I heard about it on . <a href="http://www.hotrodders.com/ " target="_blank">http://www.hotrodders.com/[/URL]</a> Some old timers there tried it and loved it. As a beginning welder, I want every advantage.

Shipwright,
As usual my hands started typing way before my brain had read your question. The add on gas kits are quite effective..my son has done this and loves it. I think something needs clarification though. A wire feed welder IS a mig welder, that is the process name. It doesn't matter if if runs solid wire with shielding gas, flux core wire with/without gas, it is still MIG.
Remember, the larger the wire, the more amperage (heat) it takes to transfer it.
Thin body panels don't like HEAT. I have a 225 amp Hobart machine and when I do light body panels I put on a small reel of .024 wire called EZ Grind. I was told all the body shops use it.
Cujo8, I will try to clear up what I meant. I thought Shipwright had a stick welder. You can make a TIG welder (not mig) from this power source quite easily. Your solid wire/gas setup is no doubt great, it is also DIFFERENT than the flux core process. Home Depot, TSC etc sell these units with fluxcore wire because they are cheaper than units with gas...then they get to sell the gas retrofit units later..a double whammy. I hope everyone is clear on this because I am so fricken confused I need to change my depends.


Stuart.

atomarc, what gas do you use with the .024 wire? Is there a wire you can use without gas on thin sheet metal?

Shipwright,
My shielding gas is a mixture of Argon and CO2..it's formulated by Liquid Aire and it's called Blueshield. The mixture of the shielding gas can make a huge difference in the dynamics of the weld deposit. Blueshield give the wire greater penetration...just what you DON'T want in the old bodyshop. Is there a wire you can use without gas...yeah, coat hangers, Just kidding. The flux cored wire, as the name implies has the flux inside it's hollow tube. As the wire melts, the flux vaporizes into a gas...the shielding gas.
The name MIG means metal-inert-gas. The wire is the "metal" and the shielding gas, or the flux inside the wire provides the "inert gas". The inert gas keeps the atmosphere out of the weld puddle. Oxygen has all kinds of things in it that don't make for a strong weld.

Soooooooooo, to get net, all wire must be shielded with something. The crusty stuff around arc (stick) welding rods is flux too, must keep out that dirty old air! Not too bad for a dumb old millwright huh!! Are you really a shipwright..that makes us almost brothers!!


Stuart.

atomarc,
I've been using the flux core stuff, but on my machine it says I have to use shielding gas on .024 wire for sheet metal. I was wondering if there was a wire that small with a flux core. They are coming out with new stuff every day.
Yeah, I used to be a shipwright. I built yacht interiors for a few years in Ft. Lauderdale and I built all the mold plugs for the Family business Then I up and moved to Colorado. Long story. I do carpentry now.

Shipwright,
Hope I get this right. To my knowledge they don't make a .024 flux core wire. That is dinky stuff..can you imagine trying to roll the metal around the flux to form a tube! I think what they are saying is use solid wire with shielding gas on thin stuff (sheet metal).

As I tried to say earlier, flux cored wire is normally reserved for thicker plate, which of course means higher amperage. You would burn right through thin steel (20 ga) quite easily. That is why when an inexperienced person buys
one of these 110v machines to take home and weld
up his hood, he burns right through it, becomes frustrated and buys the gas attachment to run smaller gauge solid wire at a lower amperage... It's a conspiracy.

The term sheet metal is sort of ambiguous. Most often is means a galvanized product, but car people mean body steel. True galvanized sheet metal is a drag to weld plus it gives off very unhealthy fumes.

In conclusion, is it safe to say you aren't building many yachts in Colorado..see how I miss the details. I guess now you might be considered a Housewright.


Stuart.

I think the smallest flux core is .030. I am using .023 w/argon/co2 gas & it is doing great on sheetmetal. I think the conversion to gas is worth it.Brian

Brian,
I think you are correct. Off subject Brian, I am watching some stainless window trim
on E-bay and the seller is "60fleetside".


Stuart.

Small world, a fella just emailed me yesterday about some w/s trim, I had a set for 64-66 I sold on eBay to a guy in CA about a year ago. Brian

shipwright, yes definitely convert to gas! flux cored gasless wire makes a brittle weld & is not suitable for automotive purposes. yes try the "twenty guage", you can weld at much lower heat so it causes less warpage. it's all i use for sheetmetal now.
robert

OK Fellas this means I can get Twenty Gauge wire for my machine.
But where? Should any supply house have it?
By the way it,s a Lincoln Weldpak 3200.
. Regards Steve sr.
PS talk about a great missus,she got me that unit last xmas and it came complete with everything but the gas bottle.

I just recently got a roll of "Twenty-Gauge" to try and so far I am pleased. I have been able to make my tacks much smaller which results in less grinding. One thing I notice over .23 that I was using is that Twenty-Gauge leaves a lot more splatter on the mig tip shield - no big deal.

I had a terrible time trying to find it. The shops in Kansas City that handle the Harris product didn't stock and wouldn't order in less than a case. Finally had to get the area Rep. to send it to me.

No question; convert your unit to gas shield or buy another one already set up.

Paul

I researched "twenty gauge" wire and enclosed a link. I don't have the literature for this product and have never used it, but the web page says it is a flux cored .030 wire made specifically for the small 120 volt machines. I would think the idea behind it's creation would have been the GASLESS, hobby market machines! I am cornfused again. :confused:

Stuart.

http://www.jwharris.com/images/twentygauge.pdf

Shipwright, If you have the Handler 125, it is plumbed inside for the gas, and all you need is the bottle with gas, a gauge, and some hose. I found a flow gauge at a surplus place for a few bucks, and I just use some cheap plastic hose for it. I'ts been working for me now for about 10 years. If you have a pressure gauge, you'll have to play with the pressure to get the weld you want. If you have a flow gauge, it's easier. I also used a quick disconnect fitting like that on an air compressor on the back of my Handler so that I can easily disconnect the gas to transport. The gas you use for steel is 75% CO2 25% Argon. For Aluminum you will need 100% Argon. I use the .023 wire for body work and it works well. You will need to get the .023 tip too. I used one like this regulator until I found my flow gauge like this one: flow gauge
Good luck, once you try mig, you'll probably never go back to flux core.

John.

Shipwright,
Before some "techno" corrects me, I will modify one of my previous statements. Techinically speaking, there are two welding processes being talked about here: the solid wire one is called Gas Metal Arc Welding or GMAW, the other is called Flux-Core Arc Welding or FCAW. Both identical except one uses a shielding gas that is provided from a flux within the tubular wire.

Unless your VERY anal, these would be generally referred to as MIG.

Stuart.

atomarc, not that anal

flat57 Should I get one of these or will I be better off with a flow meter like you have?

Thanks everyone for the replies.

automarc, the "twenty gauge" isn't "flux cored". flux cored ( gas or gasless ) wire has flux inside a hollow tubular wire which leaves a slag coating on the weld. twenty gauge by jw harris is a hollow tubular wire, but but has a core of powdered steel & leaves a slag free weld just like solid mig wire. being made this way takes less heat to do the job meaning less distortion.
go to hotrodders.com & search the forum for twenty gauge. it's been covered pretty well there.
btw, i'm not a techno/expert/whatever nor very anal. i've just got 20 plus years on the job welding experience ( most of it mig ) & i've been using twenty gauge at home for autobody sheetmetal quite a bit lately.
robert.

I have sent a personal E-mail to bluechev, and I want to say to others on this thread, I am sorry If I offended anyone with my comments. I am not an expert and have never used "twenty-gauge". My
posting style sometimes includes little phrases
or comments that might seem disrespectful...I
mean no disrespect to anyone.


Stuart.

automarc! my reply was sort of tounge & cheek & i was by no means offended! sorry if i gave the wrong impression.
robert french.

Ditto, everytime I think I might offend someone I put a grin smiley at the end. Kind of takes the edge off & lets em know your just kiddin around. No offense taken. I think most folks around here got pretty thick skin. No worries.

A few things:

- You can buy wire feeders designed for CC power sources (those designed for stick/tig) or modules for them. I have an LN-8 wire feeder but the manual lists a CC/CV module that you can buy for it so it can be connected to a CC power source.

- Flux core is basically incapable of doing bodywork because of how dirty the weld is and the amount of penetration inherent to flux-core welding (which you don't want when doing bodywork). Lincolns "innershield" wire is way dirtier than the hobart stuff.

- Adding to Atomarc's conspiracy claims, some of the real cheap wire feed gas conversion kits are "constant flow" without provision for a solenoid, which means after you spend the money on the (cheap) welder you then spend money on the (cheap) conversion kit and blow thru argon like nobody's business. Make sure your kit includes a gas solenoid, or make your own (I converted my lincoln weld pak to run mig). Otherwise you'll waste dollars in argon. Also, buy (not rent) the biggest argon bottle you can.

- If you're looking at this thread and thinking about what to buy, go for a multiprocess. I have a kubota diesel powered lincoln 10-LX ranger and love the thing. It can run stick alone, I can hook my LN-8 feeder & tweco torch to it and run mig, or I can hook my miller HF box & weldcraft torch up and run tig. I realize this is overkill for a lot of people but it's worth quite a bit to me (both in welding jobs and ability to repair things around the garage/farm & fabrication)

- Atomarc suggested a sears HF box to add-on to their stick welders. As far as I know sears doesn't produce any welding equipment any more, all I see now are clarke and lincoln. My dad has a craftsman ac buzzbox that lasted 25 years in a very dirty/wet environment before it finally croaked. Old sears equipment is pretty solid as far as I'm concerned. Miller still produces HF boxes, I know several other manufacturers do or did, they run ~175-300 on ebay for older models.

- I'd peruse ebay for a HF box to do tig with a pre-existing stick power source. You can scratch start tig but with a HF box you'll get cleaner welds, pre/post flow capability and can do aluminum. I paid about $300 shipped for my Miller HF box, which works great. If I only had a regular stick box I'd get the newer miller HF boxes that you can plug a pedal into. My ranger can take a pedal directly so I'll just use that, but a pedal will improve your welds and make welding pipe/aluminum/ss much easier.

- I'm a member both on the hobwelds forums (www.hobartwelders.com) and shopfloortalk, both are excellent resources for learning more.

I'm with you on the biggest bottle you can find. My son bought a "portable" oxy/acetalene unit. The portable is nice once in a while, but it wasn't long before we bought (almost) the biggest bottles we could find - new regulators also. I got the MIG later and used the same philosophy. The refill (swap-out) price is not much different. The old "Blue Wrench" is handy.

I have enclosed another link on Twenty Gauge. I am pretty clear on what it is now from reading the data sheet.

Stuart.

http://www.jwharris.com/images/pdf3/tengauge.pdf