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I paid my first visit to a Harbor Freight store today . . . what a circus! The place was packed with people milling around and 4 cash registers were going the whole time. I would venture and say that about 98% of the stuff was from China and another 1.9% was from India and the rest was from other countries. You can buy a pnuematic die grinder for $9.99! I left with a India manufactured welding slag hammer ($3.99), a Chinese Mechanics Stethiscope ($4.99) and a 1 ton shop crane (folding style) for $179 on sale. I saw they had a pretty decent looking cabinet siphon blaster setup for $199 on sale (regularly $299) . . . most of the stuff in the store was complete junk but that didn't seem to slow the people down from buying it. Kinda felt a little slimey loading it into my Quality built Mexican made Chevy Suburban. . . :rolleyes:

Good one!

That's why I try to buy older, second hand American tools whenever I can. It takes time and I always have to be on the look-out for good stuff, but sometimes when I need a tool right away, I don't have a choice but to run in to a place like you mentioned to get it. I always think to myself or tell my wife that I bought a tool (or whatever it might be) made/built/assembled by a 14 year old "slave" in Indochina, Tawain, Mexico, etc. I try to buy U.S. whenever I can. But as we all know, it's gettin' tougher. Best regards, Jacques.

Some of the stuff is junk, some things are incredible bargains. We have a HF store here in Lexington (used to be the only one outside CA).

Here's a list of things recommended by Mark KW, who runs
Mark KW\'s Inside Tools

Opinions are his, not mine, although I've never found any reason to disagree with his post:

{begining of quote}:

Starting with the good stuff: (these are the ones I have had exceptional results from using them hard)

Air tools carrying the "professional" branding and the cut-off and die grinders.

Impact sockets.

Pneumatic & solid heavy duty casters.

Torx & hex drivers both wrench and socket type.

Most all of the hammers & mallets.

HVLP spray guns, specifically #07902 & 38308.

Drill Master brand Forstner bits.

Diamond rotary burr and hole saw sets. (I only used these on glass but worked great)

90 pound pressurized sand blaster.

Dual wheel dolly.

Industrial heavy duty Bottle jacks.

Production drilling machine.

Heavy duty metal cutting band saws.

4.5" electric angle grinder.

10 ton port-a-power set & pull-back ram.

Most all of the wrenches work fine. Granted they lack a lot in finish but I have found 95% them to be excellent with the occasional boo boo one here and there. At prices from $3 to $15 on average per set, you can't [censored] about the value and quality.

I'm not real fond of the standard socket sets. I have not bought any for several years so I don't knwo if they got any better. For real value on these, you are best going with Kobalt as a first choice in the higher price range and Wal-mart in the lower price range. From there it's best to jump right into Armstrong or to the excess $$$ Snappy.

Stay away from the H-F pliers. Plain and simple, they suck. You will find good deals on Vise Grip and Channel Lock but many times Lowe's has equal or better prices on some styles. Over all, H-F usually has better prices for Vice-Grip.

The black handle (snappy look-a-like) screw drivers are decent for general purpose work btu definitely ain't no Klien equalivelent.

The professional gasket punch set #42390 is also a great buy and actually the best set I have found.

The pin and drift punch sets are also good value if you beat the snot out of them like I do. At $14 a set, they are easier to toss than try and fix.

The 2 & 3 jaw pullers are ok for a one time use but not even in the same game as OTC.

#01654 pry bar set, ok for light DIY'er use but make excellent long handle heavy duty scrapers.

That's about all I can think of right now. If I missed something, just yell.

Mark Kw

{end of quote}

Yeah, have to look them over real good. Some things like stands and hoists...as long as you buy the best/highest rated ones seem OK, how can they be bad? Most cast stuff like vises and anvils break with hammer raps. I have a store by me called HDC or Homier's that has same stuff, some in his name, but is cheaper than HF on lots of it. We now have an HF in big city near me, haven't been there yet, see ads all the time. Air tools seem OK, have worn out some and cheap enough to get another instead of fixing them. Pullers all have weak bolts and threaded parts and don't do many hard pulls w/out damage. I too am a Union man and they want us to buy Union and American stuff, but I can't afford most. If it means buying the imports or going w/out the imports win. Lots of times it's for only occasional use or one-time and it does OK.

The more you think you will abuse a tool , the more reason to buy a known quality name.Sockets and wrenches from Mac,Snap On,S-K etc, fit the nut or bolt properly and won't break under pressure.That Asian third world imported crap is only ok for women with long fingernails.GL, shame on you.Better to have one good wrench than a drawer full of knuckle busters.No wonder your trucks are in such a sorry state. Like the guy says above, buy second hand, hit the garage sales.

Tony, Now YOUR P****n' me off, too! Not like you. Can't help it if I'm cheap! Besides, most meets I have been to, as soon as the guy knows you are interested in the tools the price doubles and NO dealing. Sometimes he wants as much as new ones, just because it's orig Snap-On or Mac or whatever. I DO sometimes order from tool guys too if I want a "special" one.

Man, I HATE all you guys! Where's MY meds now? :p

Little does Tony know that snap off ,sk,mac and cornwall all have import stuff now.Its over priced junk(i own a lot of it,but dont buy it anymore) The best bang for the buck is craftman.You just cant beat em.I stopped buying snapon the day the guy removeed the handle on my screw driver to replace just the shank.Mac you might as well hold your breath if you need any parts for there big stuff cause most is import stuff. Hand tools you just cant beat craftsman.Weldors own nothing but miller .The rest of the junk like jacks and stuff its look at it one on one and buy the best. Unions yep they really help this country if your weak minded and cant think for yourself.

Phat, little do you know my tools were bought 25 years ago. Actually most of them are Mac tools before the split into Mac and Matco.Besides I'm just a hack , a big hammer and torch does most of the work.I have a Miller welder, maybe I'll let you use it when you stop by. Your're getting better, you only misspelled welder.

Only buy good tools, like Snap-On, Mac, Matco, and Cornwell.
SECRET: ONLY buy these tools USED off ebay! I've got a toolbox that is prolly worth over 3.5 grand (including tools). I didn't spend even half of that (prolly around 1/4 or less).

Many of the tools are in brand new condition on ebay (they must be hot). IF you know what you want, and how much to pay...ebay has some amazing deals lurking around.

Jay

PS Buy the big HUSKY tool box at home depot...it's made by Waterloo and is the exact same as one of the Mac models. (I got my bottom box of ebay for $299...top at Home Depot for 20% off cause it had a tiny "dent" in it)

Well, I agree with you guys in that if you can find a good deal on used US-made tools, thats a good way to go. I've found great buys at a couple of pawn shops, but most want new prices for their tools.

But it isn't as simple as "only buy Snap-On, Mac, whatever". First, as Phat so astutely pointed out, much of the big $$ name truck tools are either imported and/or outsourced. In that case you are much better off to go to the source.

A case in point - take a look at Ingersoll-Rand impact guns. Made in USA - NOT! Reportedly, the Harbor-Freight "Professional" line of guns are internally identical. The HF sells for around $75, I-R better than $150. Its your money, so takes yer choice.

Also, I believe most of the impact sockets are now Taiwan-sourced. Mark KW says he hasn't found any manufacturer's impact sockets that work or last better than Harbor Freight. And if you lose one, who cares? Buy another set, they are cheap.

Some people swear that anything less than Snap-On is inadequate even for emergency tools to keep in the truck in case of a breakdown. Personaly, I think you have to look at the intended use, how often the use will occur, what is the risk of loss through theft, misplacement, or bad environment in the workplace. H-F combo wrenches won't win any beauty awards, but they will get the job done on the roadside, and if they are stolen, no big deal. I have no problem with those who insist on Snap-On, but I can't afford them for the most part. I do have some Snappy engine specialty tools.

Some of the H-F specialty tools are really decent for the money. For example, their disc brake service tool (includes the spanners for rear brake caliper retraction). I've used theirs ($40) and Blue Point ($100 plus, I think). The Blue Point is clearly superior, but not so much that I could justify buying it for the occasional brake jobs that I do. If I did them for a living, no question which one I'd rather have, but I don't have a bunch of money tied up in something that isn't making me money.

Phat, again I agree with you that Craftsman is hard to beat on a bang-for-the-buck on most hand tools. I'm not crazy about their power tools.

BTW, are you guys aware of the Craftsman Club? You can sign up at Sears web site, and about 6-8 times per year you get a flyer with special deals, plus 10% off other Craftman items.

Matco is owned by Danaher Corporation, which also makes Allen, K-D, Easco (formerly), most Craftsman ratchets and sockets, and some others. I can't see paying more for the Matco or Allen brand when the Craftsmans are essentially the same tools.

Stanley now owns Mac (a shadow of its former self) and has gutted their former independent tool truck rep system. They also make Proto, Proto/Challenger, Blackhawk, Stanley Professional (natch) and most of the Husky tools sold at Home Depot (Stanley owns the brand name but has licensed it to H-D exclusively). If you look at the Husky socket line, they are identical to the Challenger and Stanley items except for the brand and stock number.

Apparently Stanley also made the Taiwan-sourced Popular Mechanics ratchets and sockets for Wal-Mart. They have phased out that brand, but otherwise identical wrenches are now branded Stanley (still from Taiwan). They are decent wrenches for the money.

I've also had good luck with the Taiwanese K-Mart Benchtop sockets, but haven't tried any of the ratchets.

S-K, now owned by Facom (French), has a very good line of tools that can be had online for good prices. A bit more than Craftsman but not as much as Snappy, Mac and Matco.

Another quality tool, although made in Mexico, is the Urrea. This company was formerly Proto of Mexico in the pre-Stanley days. Now employee owned. Styling, as you might expect, is exactly like Proto but their prices are considerably less.

Let the flames begin

---> Bill

Let the flames begin
Urrea?Like the stuff they put in cigs?

Just mess'n with ya'.

Crastmans not bad,except they need to make a decent rachet. Or include a box of bandaids with every purchase. :p
I have 40 yr.old racthets that work better than there newer ones. :p

I make my living with tools,have quite an assortment.
Keep the best and toss the rest. :p

I remember when I worked on a fishing boat, we got a cheezie set of tools for the crew and the skipper had a really nice set of tools locked away. We were always breaking wrenches and dropping the dang things overboard or in the bilge below the 6-71 (read . . . the oil slick below the motor) . . . any who, the good tools were Craftsman and never broke. Dittos on the ratchet topic, I have a Sears Ratchet that I bought when I was 19 that is my favorite ratchet of all time, big handle and micro-click ratchet mechanism - its a beautiful thing . . . sniff

Are there now two quality levels in Craftsman? I tried to use a socket set that someone bought my dad a few years ago. Sockets didn't fit the bolt heads very tight and the surface finish was rough. Felt like they were made in Pakistan. I ended up grabbing his old Craftsman wrenches, and the heads fit snug. I will let my nephew have that socket set while I dig out dad's Craftsman sockets that he got when I was a little shyster.

Hey Tony some of us had to work when we was younger not hang around a college campus posing as a student sampling Oily's crops so....never did get to go to school.Welder is the machine weldor is the guy doing it. Now what your the pix police and spelling police??? boy you got big shoulders there bud. Yes on the new sears rachets the round ones are junk except 1/4 inch now they are good.I have no idea why. When i buy stuff i try to wait for one of those 50% of saturday mornings(sometimes 7-11am) and buy several of those 199 sets(as long as they dont have the allen wrenches and other garbage in them) Got my 18v dewalt drill at one of those early morning sales and only paid 165 for it.never saw it that cheap again. With the rachets i bring them back and exchange them form the old style no problem.Even the screw drivers the old guy laughs now when i bring them in and he gives me the commercial ones (black ) as replacements.If the sockets dont fit bring them back no questions asked.Heck if the chrome starts to look crummy they go back. I give them NO option,i walk in with my paper bag and get all the replacements and procide to the check out with the broken ones in one hand and the new ones in the basket.The guys usally just count how many i am getting compared to how many i take. Now thats service.I used to have to screw around half a day for Mac or snapon to rebuild my old rachets. if snapon still messes with you for screw drivers a used to put them in the frezzer for a day put them in the vise a smash the crap out of them .That stopped him from changing just the shaft. Beleive it or not NAPA has some good safe floor jacks that are light and low(i dont buy anyting NAPA cause of the local dealer) Sears batt charger s must have one thats 15 years old (i did change one diode) Some of the miller hobart century line can be had from sears also.But that stuff is in there shop cataloge (you must ask for it ) Shop vac cant beat it(just got a dewalt and returned it) Now what kind of drill bits do most of you use????

Only the finest. Harbour freight and chuck homier.

Drill bits?!?!? the yellow titanium coated ones from McMaster Carr in bulk! I love my old Sears ratchet. I agree the new ones are sloppy and have lousy handles to really work with.

Don't worry Phat, I graduated dead last in high school.And college was a trip on my GI benefits.Is Williams a national brand? I have some wrenches and a 3/4 inch socket set of Williams brand that are old and have held up well.My electrial tools are Klein cutting tools and Channel lock brand gripping tools.Nothing else even comes close.I always laugh when I see a guy using one of those "grampa" hacksaws with the thin frames steel frames.

What about Ron-co tools, guys? Am I the only one here that has complete set of Ron-co heavy-duty, industrial grade, commercial-quality, scientifically proven, stovebolt specific, ergonomically designed, weather beater, diehard tools, with its unique nutrea rat lined, all weather, linseed oil impregnated, handy carry pouch? But that's not all.... you get the Ron-co pocket fisherman to bring in the big ones, while you wait for the tow truck, all for just $14.99, s&h. (residents of Mexico please add 8.5% tax)

Tony, I forgot to mention Williams... a fine old line of industrial tools - top notch. Now owned by Snap-On. Williams also manufactures the Kobalt tools sold by Lowe's. I've only bought a couple of odd metric combo wrenches in the Kobalt line, but they are made very well. I've heard great things about the Kobalt tools from others. And, you'll love this... they are union made in the USA!

Also agree on the Klien and Chennellock comments. You just can't beat Klien for electrical installation tools, and Channellock is a great choice for pliers.

I forgot to mention that Danaher also makes Armstrong (industrial tool supplier that competes with Williams and Proto), and makes ratchets and sockets for the NAPA brand.

I was in a Home Depot yesterday, and confirmed something that I had heard. The Husky sockets and ratchets, etc. and now being listed as made in Taiwan or China. No doubt, Stanley is still supplying those products from an offshore subsidiary, much like the Wal-Mart/Stanley offerings. Stanley got in trouble a while back over allegedly mislabelling things as "made in US" when much of the forgings were sourced from Taiwan. Maybe they really haven't changed anything but more honest labelling. They haven't dropped the prices, either, but they have scaled back their Husky line to the basics.

---> Bill

That is NOT true. I bought a "Heavy Duty" impact gun from Harbor Frieght...then I got a IR-241 or something of eBay for like $40 (it was like brand new). I tell you what, there is a huge difference in power between the two. The difference between the two in airtools is enormous.

Also, when it comes to sockets and wrenches for HF, let's just say they are good for occasional use, but the darn things don't grip the bolts well and can actually rond them off.

I've heard guys say that he's used Snap-On sockets to remove bolts that craftsman sockets had stripped (he's prolly full of it). Nonetheless, there is a difference in quality.

Also, just because a parent company owns another company does not mean that all their products are the same. Look at Daimler Chrystler...need I say more? Oh yeah, I think VW owns Ferrari too.

Thank you for the time.

Jay

PS BUY OFF EBAY!!!!!!!

Kingfish, I didn't say anything about guns labelled "Heavy Duty". :p Re-read the post.

And nowhere did I state that all products made by the parent company were equal in quality. Don't know how you made that leap?

---> Bill

My regular use socket set is a 1/2 drive 12pt SK set i got at an auction, for impacts I use a combo 3/8 & 1/2 drive set from Ace Industrial. my wrenchs are extra long reach also from ACe, Never broken a one, Only tool I ever broke was 9/16 and 5/8 open end elcheapo wrenches. THE ONLY good phillips screwdriver Ive found was a #2 SK. I got a set of ACDelco's recently, but havent "broken them in" yet.

HAHA, "Professional"..."Heavy Duty", sorry, I use the terms interchangably.

Regardless, I do think there is a difference in Air-tool quality between Harbor Frieght and IR.

And though you did not "say" all products made by parent company are equal, you did imply that a similarity exists between the various lines.

But hey, it doesn't matter anyway (we can still give each other a hard time ) It's all for sho' foo!

Jay

Well, that's my point, Jay... with these particular items, the wording isn't simply semantics. The ones literally designated "Professional" are the impact wrenches that I am talking about. The ones advertised as "heavy duty" or even "extra heavy duty" aren't the same.

If I got a chance to buy a IR at a good price, that would be fine. But great deals on good IR equipment don't show up on a regular basis.

Are you refering to where I was talking about the Danaher products? If so, I do think there is very little difference in the basic Craftsman socket/ratchet/accessory line and the very similar products sold under Allen for about 40% more. And I highly suspect the Matco tools bear more than a passing resemblance to the Craftsman Professional (high polish) items and the NAPA line.

I also think that many of the Stanley lines are also clones of each other. Perhaps not some of the high-end Mac items, but certainly Challenger, Blackhawk, Stanley Professional and until recently, Husky, have been essentially identical tools but sold for widely varying prices.

Agree that made by Snap-On does not automatically equal Snap-On quality. However, the Kobalt tools are made in the Snap-On plants, albeit from different forging patterns. And they do seem to be very good tools, especially for the price.

Not trying to give you a hard time, just want you to not misunderstand my intent.

---> Bill

Bill,

Danaher is coming close to owning everything, have you been to the danaher website? Half the company is comprised of what were separate companies less than 18 months ago . . . fewer and fewer small companies with high quality parts, they get bought by the big fish and then the quality goes in the crapper.

you guys are funny. yellin' about tools an such till yer wheezin' an hackin' an all red in the face---jeeze----have a heart attack over a set of allen wrenches. be like me---just borrow all yer neighbors tools, whatever he has is just fine with me, no whinin' about quality. oh yeah, almost forgot---really good tools can be found in the road sometimes---probably fell out from under the hood. ya know what's better than snap-on? FREE SNAP-ON. course ya don't get a snazzy calender that way, and ya don't pay 4 times what something is worth, but you can always pay 200 bucks for a 25 dollar jacket, and pretend yer a tool snot. you know the best tool? it's the one that gets that $%#@& manifold bolt out!

Yeah, Ken your are right. Danaher and Stanley own so many of the "old" lines, not to mention all of the offshore holdings. They can play all kinds of shell games to disguise who is really producing the tools, i.e. forge the blanks here, finish them there, package them somewhere else, etc.

I wouldn't be suprised if it turned out that the two of them controlled the sourcing for most brands being sold in the US, except of course Snap-On and their derivatives.

Koolcar, I'm just obsessed about tools - no need to look for any kind of logical explanation, because there isn't one. Yep, I'm a tool junkie... gotta get my next fix!

---> Bill

My favorite wrench is "liquid wrench" used with a "monkey wrench." Nothing beats a good old pair of vise grips and an tetnus shot once in a while! I have a hard time finding a 4 sided deep socket to remove the 2 inch long rusty fender bolts that some jerk put on 40 years ago because he couldn't find the right 1/2 inch long bolt to use. It doesn't seem to matter what kind of tool you have when most of the rusty bolts simply twist off....ah the "liquid wrench!"