The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 5.9L cummins in the crawfish. yes/ no?

Thinking, after I pay a horrid shipping fee to ship my truck home, I may install a 5.9L cummins into the truck. Very dependable strong work horse and I intend to make long runs with this beautiful old truck and I think this is the power plant for it. Not trying to set the highway on fire with speed, 55-60 suficiant. Dont want to lose the two speed rear end. Please give me some feed back and I know some will not like the idea of the cummins in the chevy but pros and cons answers would be nice. :hammering:

The basic idea is sound.

Try this to start with:
http://www.drivetraindirect.com/t_gear_calculator.htm

If you truly don't want to go faster than 60 then it should work with an overdrive trans with 0.73 over (like the NV4500), as well as 8.25-20 tires, or 9R22.5 if you have the rims.

In addition I would consider a rear axle swap, and or a second overdrive, probably a US Gear if you have the money.

You may think 60 is fine for everyday use, but I have a hard time believing that.
I have driven my share of over geared (slow) trucks. My first truck is a 52 Chevy 1 ton, 4.56 gears, 55mph at 2600rpm. I put about 8,000 miles on it in one month, 55 mph tops, usually 50, that made for a long drive coast to coast to coast and back.
Two other trucks I bought and drove home, one form CO to VA, geared exactly the same as my Chevy, it had a Detroit 4-53T, again, another long drive in the slow lane. That truck now has 2.xx gears and works much better.
Lastly I just drove a truck with yet again the same gears, but a 0.80 overdrive, averaged 60 mph from CA to VA. This truck has a 6V53 with twin turbos, I did re gear it for 70 mph at 2000 rpm, much much better. After the gear change I drove 8,000 miles around the country in two weeks, this time at 75-80 for a good part of it, there is no comparison. Even around home these trucks with slow gears are not ideal, and fuel consumption is miserable.

If you really want to keep the two speed, either find a newer one with faster gears on the high side, or invest in two overdrives. I have seen many poor diesel conversions, first on the list should be to gear it properly, without the right gears you don't have much.

Grigg

Why does everybody want to go so fast. I get my biggest pleasure, watching bypassers look at my old Iron, as I go by. If I'm going too fast, they won't get to see me.

Yea. Going real slow in an old truck usually gets you the #1 finger around here.

I'm guessing that's what that means...

I get it all the time in my cummins powered 1 ton. She's wound up pretty tight going 70+ which is what most traffic runs here.

More likely it indicates the number of parents.

Well, it's not exactly like it sounds.
The ability to go fast and the desire to go fast are two different things.
A truck that can go fast does not have to be driven fast.

An occasional ride to town in a slow truck is great, but don't shoot yourself in the foot by thinking that's all you will ever do. If it was a stock old truck then that's one thing, but a truck with a modern engine with plenty of power is different.

The old trucks are geared slow because the engine is at the limit of what it can push down the road. When you replace the engine with a substantially stronger one then part of that swap should be a gear change to make the best of the new engine. Even if you don't use the speed available you will save fuel by being able to choose a gear that lets the engine turn slow when it is not working, when you hit the hills you down shift.

This discussion is about a "truck for daily use" as stated by CAJUN CRAW FISH in an email to me.

To me that means that plans to drive slow will change occasionally, perhaps often, and maybe even permanently. He will end up driving it fast on occasion to get somewhere before he is late. Occasionally it will be nice to hang with traffic on a busy road. And in the end he may enjoy driving on longer trips, say for truck shows, or to haul stuff, or just for fun. A properly geared truck will be nice in these situations.

I live about 10 miles from town on a 55 mph road, or if I take the slow way it's about the same time, but 35-45 mph. All three of my trucks that were geared slow handled this fine, but if I just needed to run in to town for a quick errand it would take the car. The trucks were just geared to slow, even for traveling at those speeds. After I re geared the ford I would drive it more often, and the same trip to town, driven at the same speeds, was more enjoyable for both me and the truck.

Again, a properly geared truck does not have to be driven fast, and if driven slow there will be a fuel savings if it's properly geared, remember that fuel is expensive now, and will continue to be.
It's also safer to be able to keep up with traffic if you do need to.

Grigg

Yes. There's nothing like the feel of trundling down a road at a speed which is ideal for conditions, nice and steady(kinda like a rock) and at the bottom of your engine's powerband so that when you get to a steep upgrade, you can downshift at the bottom and pull the thing without losing any speed, and then at the top pick up high gear and roll off that sucker KNOWING your truck is working its best.

This is not a big bolt but it's one fine diesel conversion. Go to the news stand and get Nov 07 issue of Diesel World and go to page 72 a beautiful 69 Chevy short bed with a Cummins turbo diesel.
Before you go telling me it's a 72 it's a 69 with a 72 grill and hood but WOW what a truck!

I basicly use my trucks daily, running errands, & feel safer running at the speeds the designers of these trucks meant for them to travel. If I need to get somewhere in a hurry, I'll drive something else. If someone else doesn't like the speed I'm traveling, they can pass me. I always seem to get "Thumbs up", & not "The Bird". Just seems to destroy the character, of a old truck to modify it too much. I'm a "purist", & not ashamed of it. Just my outlook, on the subject. I just see so many Vintage Trucks, & Cars, that are subjects to mods, for the purpose of traveling faster. Then wind up failed projects, that are too far to the other side too rescue. Then end up as parts vehicles, or in the scrap yard.

I dont realy care if people think I should drive at the speed of light and I love my old truck as is but the old powertrain just will not do what I want it to do.I appreciate all the great feed back and here is another twist. I found a 471 diesel marine application engine close to me in michigan and curious to know if there is a trans that will bolt for road application and would this work. I understand the gearing issue and will search do to what I must for the rearend. My only mod is to change engine and trans if possible. Grigg; hotshoe36; heavyhauler and spanky thanks for your wise info and please keep it comeing.

A 4-71 is a little big and heavy for what you have. Keep looking for the Cummins, or if you like Detroits, a 4-53 is as big as I would recommend.

Grigg

Don't mean to get off topic but Grigg the local equipment trader here has a 3-92 Detroit genpack motor for sale I hadn't ever heard of one before have you?

They are confused, it's a 3-71 more than likely, but possibly a 3-53 if they are really confused.

The 92 series was only offered as a V type engine, with 6, 8, 12, or 16 cylinders
Grigg

I found a couple of 4-53 diesel engines but none of them have transmissions with them. What trans should I purchase. My truck is 189" wheel base with two speed axle.

The transmission depends on what you want to do with the truck, and how much money you want to spend.

Have you decided on your intended use yet?
How fast do you ever plan to go / what type of roads will you travel?

The right transmission also depends on what engine and rear axle/gear ratio can use. They are all part of a package to be figured out together.

If you don't need overdrive, don't want to spend money, and like driving 40 or slower then an SM420 4 speed from an AD or later truck will bolt on to an in-line 53 series with the flywheel housing from a Gama Goat 3-53 engine available reasonably cheap.

If you like shifting, and don't mind an unsynchronized transmission then a Roadranger RTO-610 or RTO-6610 ten speed overdrive is a good choice, my personal choice.

If you want to spend money then an NV4500 from a newish Dodge or Chevy 3/4 or 1 ton pickup would be a good choice, 5 speed overdrive. an adapter will be required, but I believe they are available

If you want a really tough, cheep, and heavy transmission then a Spicer 3053a from a deuce and a half military truck gives you a 5 speed overdrive.

If you don't haul much you can use an automatic like a 4L80E.

An older Allison automatic would work, but no overdrive.

There are so many choices and all may be good ones depending one what you want.

I don't think we can recommend one over the other unless you give more info on your plans, goals, and likes / dislikes.

Grigg

I like the sound of the ten speed overdrive and looks like I may have my hands on an dana-70 from an old f350. I think the gears are 410 or 456 roughly. If I cant use the 2speed currently with the turck. I will do some looking into the ten speed you mentioned to find its ratio.

What do you want to know about the 10 speed Roadranger? The OD ratio is 0.80, and the RPM drop when shifting at about 2300 is 400-500 rpm, just right for a working truck.

I have several of them, including one in my project truck with 4-53T.

Be careful not to get to old of a Dana 70. The real old ones have 1/2" pinion offset and gears are not available faster than 4.56 or 4.11, I forget. The newer Dana 70's have 5/8" pinion offset and gears are available down to 3.54.

You should check out my pictures on the link below, there are a lot of them, and you should probably look at most of them. What you are now talking about is what I have done to my 48 two ton truck, 4-53 Detroit, Roadranger RTO6610, Dana 70.

Grigg

Well I think you just answered the questions needed to put the gearing equation together. I will look at the link you mentioned and continue with the information you have given. I will email you with my findings. Your level of insight is extremely valuable. Thanks Grigg. By the way I did see couple of roadrangers on ebay: 9 and 10 speeds but the prefixes varied. I guess newer models but I will email you unless you would rather keep posting for the benefit of other bolters.

Sure, Either email or here, Others may be interested here...

The transmissions you are interested in are the smallest version of a Roadranger. The "RT" stands for Roadranger Transmission, "RTO" stands for overdrive Roadranger Transmission.

You are looking for a RTO 610 or 6610, the 66xx is a newer version, slightly quieter and stronger, same case just different finer pitch gears. These weigh 357lb

There is also a 613 and 6613, a 13 speed, adds an extra 200LB (554lb total) and gives you 3 even lower gears. I would not consider these transmissions as the extra weight is not justified by the usefulness of the 3 lower gears. If you were always heavily loaded and drive off road some the 13 speed may be a good idea. These also offered as direct or overdrive, (RT or RTO).

You could buy a new, available from Fuller, RT6609A, nine speed NOT available as an overdrive. I believe they use essentially the same case as the 6610, but somewhere they pick up another 15lb, I have not seen one in person.

The 6xx / 66xx series transmissions don't appear on ebay very often, and rarely as an overdrive, I am always looking.

Right now there is an expensive RTO6613 on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FULL...itemZ280148092775QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

Also a non overdrive RT6613 from the same seller.

There have been two different RT613 transmissions for sale for the last month or two, this model would be on the very bottom of my list of choices. Here is one of them, I was 3 miles away from this one a few weeks ago, with a truck and trailer, he would not come down on the price, I left it there. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GREA...itemZ320157364414QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

I do know of a reasonable deal on a rebuilt RTO6610 with a warranty if you are serious about this...

Grigg

Very serious about this build. Let me get more information back from the seller of the 4-53 and what may need to be done to it. I didnt think the price was to bad on the old 13 speed in the second ebay listing but I understand the overkill on the extra three gears. Its cheap enough for me, the man with no trans at this time. I rebuild a lot of car transmissions and transaxles and have yet to see what exist in the world of big trans. I like warranty but Im pinching dollars at the moment. Im assuming definate rebuild kit on the motor just because I dont know the life of the engine prior to now but Im waiting on the responding email. Got to get back to work Grigg, but Ill be checking for more posts later.

If you choose a 5.9 or a 4-53 the Roadranger bolts on with the proper flywheel housing.

Soon I should have some more info on the RTO6610 that is for sale, if I remember correctly it's the cheapest one I know of for sale right now. And I am continually looking for RTO 6xxx transmissions.

Are you sure you want a Detroit?

Have you driven a Roadranger? I had not until I bought my last truck, and it took me about 4,000 miles, from coast to coast before I felt comfortable shifting it, (I bought it in CA and drove it home). Those first few days were interesting in the traffic in and around San Fransisco.

Grigg

Never drove a roadranger, but whos says you cant teach old dogs new tricks? Besided this is as close as I may get to owning a true rig.

First off, I am not an expert on Roadrangers, I have only driven one about 12,000 miles, nothing compared to the real truck drivers out there. I can try to explain my thoughts and experiences with learning to drive one, but I am not an expert...

Sure you can't learn new tricks, just so long as you are willing to learn, understand it may take a while, and don't expect it to shift like a car.

I liked the Roadranger in my other truck (sold it a month ago), and I have no doubts about the one I have put in my 48.
Most anyone can be taught to drive a manual transmission, but even fewer of those can be taught to drive a Roadranger (without killing it).

I guess by now it sounds like a Roadranger is a bad transmission that is hard to drive.
On the contrary, they are great transmissions, that with practice are easier to shift than a regular synchronized transmission.
It's just the learning curve is steep. They are not for the mechanically uninclined or those who give up early.


The 4-53 you are looking into, is it a turbo engine (4-53T)? It would be a good idea to find one with a turbo, do it once, and do it right.

Grigg

No its not a turbo and I have yet to get a reply back from the gentleman. Hope I didnt sound sarcastic I simply welcome the challenge of the roadranger. Realy excited about moveing forward on this build. Found a 6v-53 and a web page that gives the dimensions of the engines and there weight.
4-53:39" long 27" wide 37" height 1110lbs
4-53T: 40" long 32" wide 37" hieght 1300lbs
6v-53T: 39" long 37" wide 41" height 1695lbs
6v-53: 39' long 40" wide 37" height 1485lbs
Think if I box the frame were the engine mouns I can support the extra 395 for the 4-53T?

Is will be fine as is, no boxing needed.

Have you looked at the pictures of my conversions?

Grigg

Yes I did view your conversion pics and I noticed I made a type error. I was realy trying to ask about the 6v-53 being supported. The pictures are great realy gets the blood boiling for my coe. Found another road ranger with the pto on it, 10-speed. This would be nice to keep the lift bed on my truck. Reasonably priced with the a similar history of the unit you almost purchased.

Well,
While I think that the frame would handle the 6V53 with a well designed set of engine mounts, I don't think the 6V53 is a good idea for your truck.

I bought, drove home from CA, worked on, drive around the country, and sold a 61 Ford f350 with a 6V53 and twin turbos. The engine fit nicely in that truck, must have been a lot of work to install, and it was done very well. I felt the front suspension and axle was not strong enough in the ford, the stock brakes were not nearly good enough, and the lack of PS was a serious problem.

There is not room in your COE for a 6V53, it's almost to heavy for the truck, it's just to much engine for your truck.
Stick with the idea of the 4-53 or Cummins 6BT.

"Found another road ranger with the pto on it, 10-speed. This would be nice to keep the lift bed on my truck."

Please be aware that RR transmissions are twin countershaft and have high % of PTO v Engine speed. Some will run as high as 120-130%. When coupled to a shaft drive hydraulic pump this means trouble. Someone will sure as shootin' rev it up and throw out the pump driveline or smoke the pump. They work fine at idle and not much more. Newer PTO's are direct mount and the newer pumps are built for 2500-3000 rpm, not true on yesteryears iron though.

What model is the Roadranger with the PTO?
If it is not a 6xx or 66xx it's way to big.
The jump from a 6610, to the next size up, a 910, is an additional 300lb, and the physical size difference is huge. For your truck you should not even consider a larger Roadranger.

All Roadrangers will accept a PTO, don't worry about that part. Find the right transmission first, then deal with the PTO later.

Well I think Im satisfied with the information I have recieved and will remain with the 4-53T as recommended. I guess a little more surching to find the turbo. The dont think the seller posted the if its a 6xx or 66xx on the trans. I would have to check again. Grigg I saw your you tube post of the 61 ford doing a pull competition. Guess you just wanted to see what it would do. Ill post when I find a 4-53T and I think I will call the guy with the trans you told me about: The one with man who would not reduce the price.

While a turbo can be bolted on to a non turbo Detroit, it's not advised.
A true turbo Detroit engine has many different internal parts, pistons, liners, cam, rods, oil pump, blower, and several other things.
look for a true turbo from the factory Detroit.

I tried the truck pull with the ford just for fun, and to my surprise, and everyone else there, I finished better than half the class, all new trucks with four wheel drive.

The trans I mentioned before is not desirable for your truck. It's a 13 speed, older model that is louder, and it's NOT overdrive.

If you are set on a Roadranger consider this list in order of desirability.

RTO-6610
RTO-610
RTO-6613
RTO-613
RT-6610
RT-610
RT-613

The one on eBay in PA is at the bottom of that list.

For a quick check when looking for a 6xx or 66xx transmission there are two things you can see from a distance to help prove or disprove if it is a cannidate.
1, If the slave valve (valve with air lines) is on the right side of the trans that's good.
2, If it has an aluminum clutch housing it is not good.

Here is the best Detroit service place I know of, I have been doing business with them for a while and they are very knowledgeable.
They may have a 4-53T for you, or I am sure they can find one. Ask for Harold or Timothy, explain what your project is, and that I (Grigg Mullen) suggested you call. They have 3 Detroit 4-53T re powered pickup trucks, and have worked on many others.
[img]http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/20177/2246267800080251109S200x200Q85.jpg[/img]

Grigg

Grigg you are: (Mr. Diesel).
I will print this list for my hunting efforts. Realy appreciate the time and I will call Leid Diesel Service about the engine. Thanks again Grigg, looks like its the end of the shift for me so Im going home. Have a good night.

Now i have thought about running the 5.9in my GMC with the 6 spd manual it would run 72mph@2750rpm witch is pushing both the engine and the brake's. . . :mad:

But i would most definatly go for the Cummins is about the best engine for that truck. . .

Do it i am. . .

Mike. . .