The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay 6 volt turn indicators ... quite a dilemma

I guess I'm never going to live that statement down. It's my burden to bear. But Peggy texted me a pic of John giving me a

That makes it all better.

Kevin -- Yes, I am rather pleased with the receipt of your box. Hopefully, today, I might be able to dodge the rain drops and sneak over to the shop to bench test everything.

Rather appropriate, I should think, seeing as how we are celebrating the birth of Pierre-Simon Laplace today.

Next question:

I probably should redo the wiring inside the Signal Stat 700 itself. The pigtails coming from the unit were pretty badly deteriorated and the rubber/cloth insulation was shot. I clipped everything back to where it wasn't too bad. But still, I'm thinking I should solder completely new wires on the board. Should you all consider that to not be less loony than my usual ideas, the actual question is ... will the old roll of wire solder Charlie gave me (the real Charlie/truck's first owner) work for that or is there something specific I should use?

Seeing as how Charlie's profession was radio/appliance sale and service ... I'm sortta thinkin' (there's a flag on the play!) it might be good stuff.

Carl -- Not completely dim still means somewhat dim. But its ok. I've come to terms with my inadequacies. I embrace them, even. As Red Green so eloquently sums up, "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."

Well, John, I looked up Simon and read his biography, I am still wondering what he did.

He predicted the existance of black holes, for one. He was also Napolean Bonapart's math teacher at Military school.

This thread got weird.

Ron ... You should remember him from Calculus class .... LaPlace Transforms ???

JW ... Welcome to my world ...

I am not recommending de-solder. and rewire. I have not seen condition of solder joints but there are now only a few wires on the switch which are used. I would splice with a modern solder sleeve splice or whatever way you like. It can be a can of worms you don't need. Old phenolic boards and solder joints/pads/terminals can break off or some other unforeseen event. If wires are tight, I would consider leaving alone. Heating the board is not a good idea.

To use the solder, test it on some wire joints on the bench. Some solder does have a shelf life.

That old solder that Charlie had was probably flux [on edit - actually rosin, a type of flux] core, which is the right stuff to use for electrical connections. Definitely not acid core.
I have to disagree with bartamos (and this time I'm pretty confident in my position ) about resoldering wires to that old Signal-Stat 700. They were way more robust than stuff you find today as far as the board where you're going to solder. Use a fine point soldering iron that gets hot quickly and carefully heat and pull the wires loose. Then after tinning the new wires, solder them in place.

LaPlace Transforms --- UGH!! I vaguely remember them, but still hate them. When everybody said that "I'll never need those again", with the exception of maybe a NASA engineer, that is completely true. I took a graduate level course in them way back when, and never had to mess with them again. I may still have the textbook if anyone is interested.

John, you may have to move some wires around in those relay sockets I sent you, since I screwed up the wiring royally. Or you could just remove the tags I put on. Moving the wires is pretty easy, just put a small screwdriver alongside from the relay end to release the latch and pull on the wire. They'll then snap into the right hole if needed.

Kevin: Hope you are right and all turns out well.

I'll keep the LaPlace Hotline number ready.

Good insight -- Thanks. I won't say which way I go on that until after it all works (resoldering).

As for the math ... I have to admit that I did not enjoy math at all until Calculus, Logarithms, Differential Equations, Engineering Math, etc. For some reason, the higher math, and the instructors at USNA who taught it, came alive for me and I started actually enjoying math. A light came on. I could actually "see" it, if that makes any sense. But by then .... well ... Regrettably, in my professional life, I've never really needed much beyond 8th grade math. I was a "Scientist" after all (Political Scientist) Still, though, understanding Diffy Q's helps me a lot in figuring out things, especially in converting things from one scale/UOM to another. How many Poly Sci's do you know with a BS???

I'm hoping to get over to the shop tomorrow. I may get something more accomplished. I will report back if so...

Most of my life decisions can be attributed to the literary workings of Red Green.

Gentlefolk, just so y'all know, i'm not sleeping on my post... I'm allowing all the side talk, not because the Boss is here, but because I'm intrigued with the process of the engineering of the turn signal... I just hope he doesn't let the magic out (The part that allows turn signals and brake lights to use the same bulbs).

Sorry boss. I am trying to keep it to a minimum.

Kevin and Ken ... Still not following why I need two more relays ... why do I need relays for the front? I have one wire coming from the 700 for each corner (Front right turn, rear right turn, front left turn, rear right turn.

The two front lights are dual filament, so they are marker light and turn signal -- no competing signals for the bright side.

On the rears, yes -- brake and turn signal need to share the bright side, so I understand the relay use there.

As far as I know, the 700 does not have a 4-way flasher capability. I don't see a particular reason to add one, either -- unnecessary complication. So if the two additional relays are to allow 4-way flashing ...

John, I wasn't able to get the relay setup I sent you to work for the rears with the flaasher upstream of the turn signal switch, and your 700 does have separate wires for front and rear, but they're from the same source and powered at the same time. So they're essentially the same wire.
The only way to make the fronts work is to put the turn signal switch before the flasher relay so the switch energizes the coil on the appropriate relays and the flasher is the source for the switched legs of the relays. The brake light switch is the alternate source for the rear filaments, but the fronts don't have an alternate source.
Even if the 700 has 4-way flasher capability, you'd still need a separate relay for each bulb.
Just follow Ken's latest wiring diagram.

HERE is a post with pictures of the innards of a Signal-Stat 700 switch.

Pretty clear that the two wires for the bulbs on each side have the same source.

John, I don't see a way to flash the front lights directly from the switch and use relays for rear....as crazy as that sounds.

I recommend using the 4 relay circuit.
To do that:
1. Attach YEL wire coming out from switch to 6V fused.
2. Splice BLK wire from switch to "right front" wire seen in 4 relay diagram. (pilot)
3. Splice GRN wire from switch to "left front" wire seen in 4 relay diagram. (pilot)
4. Attach RED wire coming out of switch to be the "right" wire shown in 4 relay diagram.
5. Attach WHT wire coming out of switch to be the "left" wire shown in 4 relay diagram.
6. Switch has a triangle shaped, three contact. This rotates with lever movement. Bend up the bottom contact so it does not make contact. That is so the built-in pilots can work with this new circuit.
7. Flasher P wire shown in 4 relay diagram is not used.
8. Flasher X is 6V fused as you know.
9. The "splices" mentioned can be a new wire, desolder BLK and GRN and solder a new wire.
The colors and the mod is from looking at the pictures of the online 700 posted by Kevin. Those colors and their function match the Stovebolt 700 Tech Tip.

I tried this blue addition but I fear it won't work good enough to discern a flash.

Do NOT USE

Ken, your last diagram is basically what I had. Nothing coming from the flasher to make that work unless the brake light switch is on. It's powering the relay coil from the flasher. But there's nothing going to the rear bulbs when the relay is pulled in connecting 30 to 87. What I found is there's no way to get the rear lights to flash with both turn signal AND brake lights. I'll have to take a look at what you posted in your next to last post.
John's 700 switch has a left and a right pilot, but if he wants them both to flash, it would take rewiring the bulb contacts. I don't think there's a way to make the pilots flash with the 4-relay setup. With constant power to the switch, they'll just be ON when the switch is in left or right position.

Maybe two more flasher relays one for each of the front lights, and just the two relays for the rear brake/turn circuit? They might need to be electronic flashers if powering just one bulb each. Give me a bit and I'll see if I can sketch that up. Flashers would be easier to come by than relays.

OK, Here's a sketch using two relays for the rear and a flasher for each of the front lights.

The front and rear signals wouldn't flash synchronously, but who cares?

You'd have to find a 6v flasher that would flash at a decent rate with only one bulb. I'd betcha it would flash really slow, if at all.

Kevin you are giving me a headache. I'm not pushing the last diagram. I felt it would not work. Yes it is a modification of your diagram which was a modification of my 2 relay diagram. I recommend the 4 relay with my instructions on how to wire. I was just showing how I tried to make 2 relays work with the blue additions. They are jumpers. Do you see that? They connect 87/30 when flasher latches the relay, then off when flasher pauses which would light the turn/brake filament again if brakes were applied at that time. But the 1/2 sec flasher interval would make it seem not to flash. That's what I also said. It's for rear only. Front would be as John was hoping. But No dice.

I don't wish to discuss that diagram, it was just in case someone saw an avenue. That is group brainstorming 101. Never afraid to suggest an idea even if you think it does not work . Someone may pick several pieces of ideas and hit the jackpot. I actually had training on that at Honeywell Aerospace.

My instructions and 4 relay diagram will do the trick, including flashing the left or right pilot. That is the best I can do. It's an answer. The only one at this time.

Sorry about the headache, Ken, but when the relay latches, it connects 30 and 87 internally, so jumpering those doesn't do anything.

I agree that your 4 relay diagram will work, but I'm not sure it will flash the pilots.

Bill, Maybe a resistor downstream of the flasher would take care of the flash rate. That would be pretty easy, but I haven't verified that. A bench test would be in order.

Just trying to find a solution for John's front signal thing without adding two more 5 pin relays.

OK, let me digest all that. Just got home from work... Not a hard day or anything (a day spent behind the wheel of a classic Pete is a day well spent in my book ... )

Anyway, what you are saying isn't making sense to me just yet. I may have to bench test everything to prove to myself if you are right. You may well be...

In the meantime, tonight, I tackled the Signal Stat 700 itself (my sacrificial one -- the learning one. I'm learning on this one and will restore/use the other one that's better).

Two of the screws holding the unit together were rust welded. Well ... Mr. DeWalt had the answer to THAT!

Good work John. I need to say that my instructions are based on the same 700 switch I found and Kevin found on the internet. So the colors and other info may change when I see pics of the switch you end up using. Will need you to assign/label colors as you see them and pic of other side of board. The cloth can fade and blend. We can use Kevin's link to that 700 so as to be on the same page.

John, if you're going to insist on using the obsolete switch, the brake light discriminator circuit can be made to work with only two relays. You'll need relays with "normally closed" contacts, one for each tail light. No relays for the front lights.
Jerry

It would be good if all ideas are drawn up and posted so we can learn.

... sez the guy building a 216 into a 302 ...

Thanks for the info!

Schematic on the drawing board- - - -it uses two 6V Bosch style relays and two diodes. The sticking point is creating a circuit that keeps one brake light on constantly, and flashes the other one, yet will still work when braking is not involved. That's where the diodes come into play, preventing backfeeding the opposite brake light and flashing them both. The relay actually turns one brake light OFF intermittently, in sequence with the flasher signal.
Jerry

Waiting with baited breath. I couldn't figure that one out.

Night crawlers or chicken livers? Catfish like them both!
LOL!
Jerry

Update on my last suggestion of using flashers for the individual front lights with the relays for the rear. I just bench tested the 535 flasher I have with a single #87 6V bulb and it flashes just fine (also with two of the #87's.) It didn't work with either one or two 6V #51 (dash light) bulbs. No flash but normal brightness with one, and two were dim.
Here's a cleaned up diagram for the 2-relay diagram with additional flashers for the front bulbs.

Jerry, Chicken livers would be OK, but Night Crawlers, not so much. LOL!

Kevin, no pilot lights? 3 flashers? Where is the advantage over my 4 relay, with original pilots and one flasher?
Also in your diagram pilots will stay lit and not flash.

FYI. I see something odd about the tech tip for 700 as compared to the internet 700 pic wiring.

Ken, the flasher wiring is way simpler than relays, so there's an advantage there. And with the Signal-Stat 700, my research indicates the pilot lights are not on a separate circuit from the signal lights themselves, so running the pilot wire from the flasher won't work. It will on the AutoLamp 9000 I have, since it's pilot circuit is independent of the light circuits.
[on edit] I see that Cletis' (RIP) tech tip indicates that the SignalStat 700 uses a 2 terminal flasher (without pilot output.)

Waiting to see what Jerry comes up with for 2 relays and 2 diodes.

OK- - - -"easy button" method:

Just noticed an error- - - -add a diode upstream of pin 30 on both relays to prevent a backfeed when not on the brake. Revised schematic on the way.
Jerry

Nice, Jerry.

Looks like that would work fine. But Ken may object to cycling the relay with the intermittent output from the turn signal switch.

Solves John's issue with applying constant power thru the relay coils and trying to figure out how to make the front signals flash.

Kevin, my friend, I don't know what your definition of simpler is but we are just talking about wiring up components to the T/S switch. Not how simple it may or may not be to draw it up or understand one over the other. One has three flashers, I could say that is crazy. It has no pilot flash. I could say that is unacceptable. But I will leave it as "no advantage". The fact it has direct drive to the front is no advantage if you sacrifice pilot. Being able to use the direct drive for front is what is causing all this effort and it is unessessary because no one will know one way or the other. It's the total original look and feel, with a new function, that we are after.
The slight mod of bending up a contact tab is no big deal. Mounting 4 relays into 4 sockets and wiring them up with 1 flasher, is not conplicated.
The number of components subject to failure is about the same in all these methods. I could say 4 relays just used for latching and only one flasher is more reliable

When I visit John's place in a few weeks I'm going to hook it up my way, anyhow!
LOL!
Jerry

Ken, isn't two connections on a flasher simpler than 4 or 5 on a 5 pin relay? It is in my world.
Like I said, the 700 can't use an external pilot signal, so using Jerry's diagram, with the flasher activating the two relays (I know you don't like that, but...) solves John's issue with front lights AND the integrated pilots on the 700.
If I was in John's shoes, having a 700, I'd go with Jerry's solution. With the addition of two four (just read Jerry's revision) diodes, he has everything he needs to make his signals work.

I see everyone's ideas, Good input from helpful folks. But I will rest on my laurels.