The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop CPP Power steering Slop

Has anyone encountered the slop in the steering boxes for a 1958-59 Chevy ? Seems both of my trucks have alot of play at the rag joint to box. It is sloppy without power and under power.

Is this a third box? You posted a video last year and said it was "another" box.

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...5-59-power-steering-box.html#Post1502280

If this is a similar issue where the input to the box moves and the pitmat arm doesn't, that is a bad box. I know several people who have gone through multiple bad boxes from the factory in the last 3-4 years. Even from "good" brands.

No still the same. I was in contact with CPP and had a receipt to return.
But taking everything back apart seemed like alot of work ...again.
I must have one of those bad boxes. My black 58 is sloppy ,just not as bad.
So no adjustment can be made to the box? I think the adjuster at the bottom just stiffens the turning steering wheel?

Plus I fear another bad box after all the work

Have you done the center point preload adjustment? It's been discussed ad nauseum over the past 20-something years I've been hanging around the stovebolt site, with some really oddball procedures involved- - - - -mostly involving fishing scales.
Jerry

Thanks Jerry. No I have not. I just figured it was another bad box. CPP will take it. But Id like some kind of assurance that I would not be pulling a new one back out again. Can they test those at the manufacturer? Seems so.

Back when someone with the unmitigated gall to call himself a "mechanic" actually fixed things instead of just swapping parts, part of every front end alignment was checking and adjusting the center point preload (if necessary). All the procedure involves is disconnecting the pitman arm so nothing but the steering gear moves, and measuring the turning torque increase as the gear moves across the center point. The vast majority of the time, that adjustment completely eliminates any slack in the gear.
Jerry

OK, if I understand. I don`t notice or see any play aside from the shaft and box.
Steering bar and pitman arm is not moving when turning.

There is also a worm gear bearing adjustment...removes play from the worm gear bearings and puts a slight pre-load on those bearings (which is necessary). Once that is done, as Jerry said get the worm and sector gear to the center point and adjust that so there's the proper resistance there. Resistance at the center point will be the greatest and will diminish as the sector gear is moved to either right or left. An inch pound torque wrench is a really good way to determine this. I'd check both worm gear and sector gear adjustment. It sounds to me like there's a possibility neither was adjusted when your steering box was "rebuilt." Here is an explanation from the 2nd series 1955 manual: https://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1955truck2/55ctsm0904.htm

Good luck.

Thanks Jon but this an IDIDIT steering column and power steering pump.
Power steering. Does what you describe apply?

The steering box itself works the same way and has the same adjustments for both power and manual boxes.

There has been discussion in the past of them needing the same center resistance, but I have not seen any documentation for what the factory specifies on the power boxes.

There are a few choices for what application the CPP steering box came out of. Do you know whicj one you have?

The easiest thing is to try adjusting it and see if you can make the play go away. If you can, then look for the spec on how tight it should be. If the play does not go away with adjustment, then the box is just bad and needs replaced.

Thanks the adjustment on the box is said by the manufacturer to only be turned a quarter turn or
damage could result. I have done that.

The manufacturer lies. He's in business to sell new stuff. I've been adjusting steering boxes for 50+ years, and I've never heard such nonsense. Good luck!
Jerry

Here is a video of what is going on. www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mY7zKwWeH0

I`ll try and adjust it some more. thanks Jerry

I believe that the power steering box that CPP and others provide is referred to as a series 400 unit.
It is an aftermarket unit designed from a 84-87 Toyota 4x4 unit which was popular until the parts dried up.
I have the original Toyota unit in my 56 that I installed in 2000. It does appear to have an external adjustment.
However, I have never found the need to touch it as it has worked perfectly since the install.

The fact is that almost all aftermarket stuff is made offshore (China) you may continue to get a faulty
product no mater how many times they send you a replacement.
And no, it should not have slop in it. I'm not sure if adjustments can fix this issue.
Fred

The adjusting screw pointing toward the exhaust manifold needs to be tightened until the slack is eliminated, then turned slightly further until there is approximately a 10 inch/lb. increase in turning torque at the steering wheel nut as the box passes over the center point. That extra preload is probably what the "1/4 turn" bovine scatology from the seller is referring to. That is how all worm and sector steering gears are adjusted, regardless of the manufacturer. (At least since the first one I worked on in 1960 was done) It was on a 1949 Dodge.
Jerry

Yes it is a series 400. Agreed, I dont know if I would accept another without
it being tested completely...somehow.
I drove it for the 1st time to the dentist yesterdayafter sitting for 2 months and its a noticeable
problem after not driving it .

I suspect that "rule" assumes that it was set correctly at the factory and they don't want a user to mess up the initial calibration. Given that something is clearly wrong with the box as currently set up, I would not be terribly concerned about following the box.

I figure you have two choices:
1. Try adjusting it further like Jerry said and see if you can tighten it up and make it work.
2. Remove it and try and get CPP to replace it with a hopefully better one.

About the only other source for that much free play would be in the spool valve which directs the steering pump boost pressure to the proper direction as the wheel is turned. If that's the case, the box is deadly dangerous, since the input shaft could disconnect internally and leave you with no steering whatsoever, without warning. I've seen that happen on race cars where a power steering box was used without the power assist, to take advantage of the quicker ratio it provides.
Jerry

Yeah, so CPP is wanting me to check a new box that they will send. I want them to be able to check the play on a bench before they send it to me. They want me to check it (new). Does not make sense. If I can check it,why cannot they before shipment? They will take mine back (defective) and either fix it or replace it. Its the replacement or "fixed" that concerns me.

Is this the first box or have they already sent you a defective replacement?

Still the first box. With my heart condition ,its not easy getting under there to remove this thing. My work garage is still too cold. I so dislike putting on something NEW and it not working correctly due to quality control.

Join the club!

Joined!!

You can check everything about the steering box on a bench if you know how to check a steering box.
Parts sellers may not know how to check a steering box.
CPP is not under the same management as they were years ago. They do not make steering boxes. They buy them from someone else and ship them to us.
Once you install the new box which you have bench tested, all you will need to do is make sure that the overcenter resistance occurs when the wheels are in the straight forward position. If it does not, you need to lengthen or shorten the adjustable drag link supplied by CPP.

CPP's showroom is truly a candy store of aftermarket parts. It is well done and beautiful. However,...... They do not make
anything or have the facilities to test anything. They like most suppliers just push parts across the counter and collect your
money. They may be able to provide some tech assistance, but I'm not sure.
Fred

You may want to call ABS 714-771-6549 in Orange, CA before you remove the existing box. They rebuild these components
and can probably quote you chapter and verse about the problems with CPP stuff. It's possible that CPP sends their problems to
them because they are close by and know what they are doing.

Fred

I was able to turn the adjusting screw just 1/4 turn more and it took out
enough play in the wheel. I drove it today for about 25 miles and noticed the steering
was much more sensitive to R-L. So that will work for me. I sure did not look forward to lowering that
power steering box down with one arm. Laying on the ground.
I have another slight problem, when I clocked the box to center. It turns fine left(probably too far) and right but just
bottoms out on the right turn. Its not by much , just stops short.
I`m I correct in thinking that I can pull the pitman arm. Turn the wheel to left slightly , make sure wheels are
centered and put the pitman arm back on and pull/reset the steering wheel to center?

There are a couple of ways to correct an off-center midpoint. On a normal steering system the steering box is locked at the midpoint and the tie rods are adjusted so the wheels point straight ahead. If you have an adjustable drag link on a power steering conversion of a straight axle, the drag link adjustment can accomplish the same centering process. If the drag link isn't adjustable, you're going to have to remove the Pitman arm and file some teeth. There are four double width teeth on the Pitman arm that engage with wide areas of the sector shaft so the Pitman only fits at 90 degree intervals. By splitting those wide teeth with a 3-cornered file, the Pitman arm can be clocked one tooth at a time to get closer to equal movement in both directions. An adjustable drag link consisting of two tie rod ends and a turnbuckle adjusting sleeve in the middle is the only way to get things exactly equal.
Jerry

I have filed those double teeth many times.

Ed

Simple answer...YES I can. Just as I described.

Good luck- - - -if you do, it will be the first time it's ever been done without modifying the Pitman arm splines.
Jerry

Jerry... its done. I don`t think you understand what I am talking about
or if I did not explain it clear enough for you. CPP describes it as turning the steering box rag joint all the way to one side.
Then counting the revolutions back all the other way to the other side . Then count half back and that is center.
I just did the same thing with the pitman disconnected and tuned the steering wheel in the cab to one side
then in half. re attached pitman arm. Pulled and Recentered the steering wheel + horn plate.
.s. The steering box splines for the pitman arm have very fine
multiple grooves. So finding the best slot for the pitman arm is easy. There would be no room to file anything.
Sorry we must`ve slipped differentials there. I must not have been clear. Easy fix.

So I guess we learned something...? I am here to help and learn. Maybe I am in the wrong
site? I am not so smug to think I am so right or wrong. I apologized if I was wrong.
Simple courtesy and respect is received and given on my end. The "Good Luck" sounds derogatory to me.

Guitplayer, I have been following your progress with this steering box as I have the same part from CPP. I had some issues with CPP's Customer Service folks when I ordered the steering box, I did manage to get the box in the end but through another vendor. I only have the box mocked up at this point and have not had the opportunity to try it out. After re-reading this thread it seems to me that your correct, that there is a design problem. You should not have needed to adjust a "New" steering box.

I may have similar problems once I get the Truck together, so I'm interested in just how you work through this. My Truck has a 4" dropped axle and front sway bar, I also used an adjustable drag link. Like you, when trying to "center" the steering box, I had problems as well. I did just as you have done and moved the pitman arm a spline or two to reach the correct alignment. I have the toe in set and the wheels center as now, so time will tell if I have it right.

As for being here to learn and help, your spot on. The function of the site is to share information and knowledge, what your doing is here is just that. Good luck and please follow up with any future adjustments you need to make.

OK- - - -it looks like we're talking about different steering boxes- - - -the Saginaw power steering box that most of the conversion kits use has four wide splines built into the Pitman arm, and corresponding wide areas on the sector shaft. That's the one thsat needs to be modified by filing the splines on the Pitman arm. I have no idea what vehicle the box pictured in the above post comes from originally. The Saginaw box mounts ahead of the axle on a Rube Goldberg bracket that has the Pitman arm moving horizontally instead of the vertical arrangement pictured above.
Jerry

Thanks man. I don`t have an adjustable drag link. I also did not move the pitman arm.
I kept the wheels centered. removed the Pitman and centered the steering box with the wheel.
Much easier this way CPP instruction that want you to do this with the steering box 1 inch "D" shaft alone.
Reaching over and down to the steering box and turning it to navigate center was not an accurate way for me.
This is what I did...Front end up.
Tires centered as you can get ,pitman arm removed(I removed the driver front tire)... navigate center inside cab with the steering wheel.
Back and forth ..1/2 between.
Of course I have my engine cranked and power steering. The pitman just barely on and never moved from its original angle (front end up) with power, checking the
travel. Looking good...tighten pitman arm down. Lower truck. Tires are pointing straight but of course the steering
wheel is not " centered". I had to pull the wheel twice and turn the horn plate to get it centered proper.
First time I was just one spline off. Second ..right on.
Still drives as good as it did , now I can have complete turning to the right..and left.
Far as the adjustment went to the steering box itself. Yeah, should not have to do that with a brand new unit.
There are 2 blue marks on my SB adjustment 5/8 lock nut and center adjusting screw from the factory that mark set play.
Rep said only adjust 1/4 turn tighter. I went 1/2 maybe a little less than. Seems to be fine.
Some terrible pics. Should have taken while I was doing it.

Jerry, I believe the CPP steering gear is a knock off of the Toyota. I uses the original GM mounting holes, the hole in the frame for the pitman arm must be enlarged. At first I was going to mount the Saginaw steering gear as you described. After reading about issues others were having with alignment and bump steer I decided to use the CPP steering gear.

My kit came with a new and must use pitman arm. I keep the original frame mounting holes.
They just had to be enlarged. My question next is , I have and want to upgrade to the
replacement tie rod ends and larger diameter steering bar. I wonder instead of grinding and pressing
the old ball out of the old steering arms(pic) ,,,,,,howabout just replacing the steering arms?
I took these pics. Everything is original till you get to the pitman arm.
To avoid pictured diagram.

There is more to using the new style tie Rod ends than removing the original Ball end. It's recommended that you use the upgraded center link with the new style ends. The new ends thread on to the center link just like the originals. I did this swap on my'59, it wasn't all that involved. The new ends fit the steering arms perfectly, no reaming was needed.

I bought the parts from Brothers Truck, that was quite a few years ago.