The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Fuel pump

Gents,

After many headaches, frustrations, and calming myself before throwing wrenches, I’m struggling to find a good fuel pump.

Here is what I have found….

The glass pumps are back ordered as the company was bought out by another and they are not making any currently (from chevofthe40s)

I have bench tested 5 fuel pumps and they worked in my hand. (10-15psi vacuum on fuel “in” and 2-4 on fuel out to the carb)

Once I connect up to my engine, I get <6 psi suction and most were 0-1 for output. What I have realized is that the position of the pump lever that rides on the cam has a different travel on each pump even though it’s the same part number (Chinese crap). I have even found pumps that have the lever pointing down instead of up.

Questions:
what pump are you using on your 216, 235 or 261? (Part # and FLAPS?)
What is the orientation of your pump lever?

Thanks,

Chris

Engine: 1961 261 rebuilt 18 months ago with stock cam.

Chris my answer has been given numerous times. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in any of the Chinese made "replacement" pumps. I decided this after two failed and left me stranded after only a couple of months use...25 years ago. So I've used an electric pump with 2.5~3 psi output since then and it has done just fine for me. In fact a couple of years ago I replaced the one I bought in 1997. Not because it wasn't working. Simply because they're not expensive and I thought it was prudent to get a new one. This is the AutoBest 4027 pump. Good luck!

The blankout plate on mine isn't vacant. I ran my spin-on oil pump lines there and plumbed for a filter. You can see it below.

Find an old, American made fuel pump on ebay and rebuild it or send it to Then and Now Automotive and let them do it.

Two Chinese pumps failed on me last year - one wouldn't pump any gas at all brand new - and the rebuilt original now has 5000 miles on it without issue. It puts out 2.5 psi at the carb. That's what its supposed to be.

It's possible to fit a dummy mechanical pump to the engine block and hide an electric pump under the cab. Run the fuel lines through the fake pump and enjoy the best of both worlds- - - -an original looking engine and a reliable fuel supply. Just wire in an oil pressure sensor to avoid flooding problems if the engine stalls.
Jerry

Jerry,

I have an oil pressure sensor from when I tried it with my 216…. It shut the fuel off when engine got warm and 216 oil pressure dropped below 10! Ops!

Depending on tomorrow’s outcome, I might wire one in.

Chris

I’m using a fuel pump on a 216 that I purchased from Advance Auto. It looks like a Delphi and may be. They bear no resemblance to the factory part but do work.

I’ve decided to go electric pump due to 6 bad mechanical fuel pumps in a row!

For the wiring, “key on” positive to positive pump terminal and then negative pump terminal to the oil pressure switch positive and then grounded from switch other oil pressure switch blade.

Does this sound correct or is it better to put switch on positive side?

As for the fuel lines, I plan on running it through a dummy pump (I removed one way valve on the inside).

Thank,

Chris

You won't get fuel until you have spun the engine fast enough to get enough oil pressure to trigger your switch that way.

The one time I set up an electric pump with a carb I put a 4psi regulator between the pump and the carb to prevent flooding and just wired the pump to ignition switched power.

Other people might have other solutions, but that worked for several years for me.

I have wired them with permanent wiring on an oil pressure switch, but also a manual push-button switch to activate the pump prior to the presence of oil pressure.

I don't use regulators. The carburetors I use (its an 8 cylinder, not a 6) can be modified to withstand higher fuel pressure, and I have modified them to do so.

Jon

If it was me, I'd run the + through the oil switch and here's my logic. If you're in a wreck and the sheet metal crumples up around the engine the switch leg to the pump could get grounded with the engine off causing it to keep running. On the other hand, if it touches the + wire it will blow the fuse and turn it off.

Others may have different ideas.

Mike B smile

Mike,

I’ll keep that in mind. I’ll probably wire in a bypass (push button) for priming purposes only and then, once released it will turn off and run off of the oil pressure.

I’ll start working on it tomorrow to see what makes the mose sense, and least amount of wire.

Chris

Update:

I used an electric fuel pump that Jon recommended and it runs great!

As others recommended, I took the one way valve out of my old fuel pump, reassembled, and ran the fuel through the dummy pump. Pump is 12” from tank.

As for the wiring, I ran a positive (key hot) wire to the pump. The wire coming out i split (2 parallel circuits under dash). I made one circuit for a primer button (not toggle) and the other a switch (?) that turns fuel off if oil pressure drops below 10 psi. That is terminated to a body mount ground.

It is working GREAT and it’s obvious that my pump has been slowly fading for a while now!

Thank you guys for the support!

Chris

Why are you going through the "dummy pump" I would be worried about the old diaphragm springing a leak and filling the oil pan with gas.

Electric fuel pump on a Stovebolt?

Well, I have one on my 54 but only use it to prime the carb when it has been sitting for a while.

Carl,
I wanted it to look stock, but run electric. At most 4 psi is running through it and there doesn’t seem to be any issues. I’ll let you know more if anything goes weird.

Trkngmc, I tried 6 different fuel pumps that were new and all failed bench tests out of the box. I was tired of ordering and trying new ones.

Chris

Chris and Jon,
I believe your trucks are both earlier than my 1954 truck. Before 1954, the fuel tank outlet was on the bottom of the tank and fuel was gravity fed to the pump. On my truck, the fuel feed is at the top (integral with the tank sender) and the pump must pull the fuel up out of the tank. The stock pump is a displacement pump so it will pull the fuel up even if the tank had been run out of gas. (and refilled, of course)

I have a car with an electric pump where the situation is similar to my truck; the pump must pull the fuel out of the tank. If I run the tank out of gas, I have to prime the pump to get it to work again - not something you want to do at the side of the road. This pump is a rotary vane type pump and I believe if it was a different design, it wouldn't need priming.

Question: do you know if the pump you are using work on a 1954 tank? IOW, it's self priming?

I’m not sure if it is. My guess is there is someone on here that would know. If Jon doesn’t have an answer for you, you should put up a separate post asking that question. Someone will answer it for you as it might be hidden under numerous posts here.

Chris

I can dig that reasoning. All you need to do to make sure that gas isn't leaking past your diaphragm into the crankcase is to smell your dipstick from time to time, especially if the oil level reads mysteriously high.
This is something that we all should regularly pay attention to when running a stock mechanical fuel pump. The diaphragms will all eventually fail.

Understood! I check my oil every few days. I also carry extra hose to bypass it if needed.

Chris

If you whack the lever that runs on the camshaft off your dummy fuel pump, the diaphragm in it will last at least twice as long, as it won't be continuously flexing. Just an idea for those who worried about leaky diaphragms filling the crankcase with gas.

I run a Carter 4070 which is a 12 volt pump, but Carter has a 6 volt pump, the 4259, 5.5 psi max pressure so it probably runs 4 psi real world which means no need for a regulator. Under $100. See below.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Carter-P4259-6-Volt-Electric-Fuel-Pumps,8837.html?sku=9104259&utm_matchtype={match_type}&msclkid=995b198ff74f1ca3224c7cbd5d659ac7&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SMI%20-%20Shopping%20(CSE)%20(Bing)&utm_term=4577129469001644&utm_content=All%20Products%20II%20(Feb28_2020)

My grandfather had a 1925 dodge that he loved to drive but fuel delivery and reliability on that motor became an issue. I installed an electric pump and regulator. The car was 100% original. No one cared. No one. And he never had any problems or failures whatsoever in the years he had to enjoy the car.

No one will care if you install a electric fuel pump on your truck. No one. So eliminate headaches and use a fuel pump block off plate and forget it.

Install the pump near the gas tank, and use the Carter rubber isolators for a quieter experience. Also, install a metal inline fuel filter between the tank and the pump. The Carter pumps use the fuel to cool the motors and junk from the tank can jam them up.

As for wiring, if you can find a 6 volt relay, wire the pump through a relay to keep the higher amp draw outside of the cab and entirely in the engine compartment.

Use a Carter pressure safety switch. It does not take much cranking at all to trigger the switch, 7 pounds.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-a68301

If your motor stops running for whatever reason, motor shuts off unexpectedly, accident, fire and you shut the motor off, fuel does not keep pumping. A good safety feature. I have run this style set up for over 40 years (and still do).

If your dummy pump can be dismantled with screws between the two housings, just replace the diaphragm with a piece of soft aluminum sheet metal and remove the lever arm. Install a blind gasket at the crankcase hole. No flexing to worry about and the engine will look original from the outside.
Jerry

I didn’t understand what you were referring to when stated “This pump is a rotary vane type pump”(Yours or the one mentioned previously in this post).
It got me thinking about my 1955 6700 Bus with 327. There is a block off plate where the mechanical pump went and it uses an in-line electric pump. I did some on-line research and found that I too have a rotary-vane style pump. If the truck sits for more than a couple days I have to run pump for several minutes to get fuel to the carb. It ran out of gas once, I just let the pump run for awhile and it eventually primed.
I also read about the Gerator-style pumps. The rotary-vane pumps are good for fluid transfer, create a pulsing pressure, have more moving parts that cause it to run hotter and work with carbed engines. The Gerator-style pumps create more vacuum and steady pressure, good for carbed, and EFI engines.
The Type of pump, Gerator, or Rotary-Vane does not seem to be on the spec list of the pumps that I found on-line. I don’t know if you could tell the difference by looking at the case.

I don't know what type of pump Jon recommended and Chris bought. I can't tell from the external appearance what type of pump it is.

The pump I was referring to was a Carter P4070; a rotary vane pump. It will lose it's prime if the tank runs dry. This is the second P4070 that I bought. The first one died after I had put the car in storage. I had shut the pump off and ran the carb dry. Unfortunately, the pump still had some gas in it and it had become gummed up. Out of storage, when I switched the pump on it couldn't turn due to the gum and the motor burned out. Lesson learned is to check that the pump is not gummed up after it's been stored for a while! If necessary, the pump parts of P4070 can be disassembled and cleaned.

I note that Holley pumps are vane rotor types. I won't be buying one from them.
https://documents.holley.com/199r7914-3rev6.pdf

Is the gerator design better at priming? I don't know.

Car manufacturers put the pump in the tank. That would solve the priming issue.

Either of those types of pumps (rotary vane or gerator) should prime just fine, although the rotary vane pumps are susceptible to the vanes getting stuck in the retracted position (the gum issue that Gord mentioned.) Another type pump that's self priming is a flexible rotor pump similar to what would be used on an outboard motor for pumping cooling water. I don't know if they're suitable for fuel however, as I'm not sure whether the rubber rotor material is compatible with gas. From digging around a bit, it appears that Carter universal fuel pumps are mostly solenoid/piston style, with check valves, rather than rotary. Solenoid/piston pumps should self prime, but it's recommended they be installed below the top of the fuel tank.

The Carter will prime, but not all the time if it has to pull the fuel out of the tank. I ran the tank out of gas last week. I added gas and switched on the ignition. After waiting a minute or so for it to self prime, I started to worry about damaging the pump and switched off. I used an outboard motor style squeeze bulb to fill the intake pipe and it's worked fine since then; starts pumping right away.

Again, this would be an issue for the later trucks where the fuel has to be pulled out of the tank. Gravity feed from the bottom of the tank to the pump inlet would be just fine.

I remember in the 90`s when I had my trucks with a mechanical fuel pump. After one failed ,I put an electrical on the inner fender. If the mechanical ever went bad again, all I needed was a Phillips to reroute the line/hose and alligator clips to the battery.
Reminds I need to do this with my 235. My cheap over seas pump just went on me. I took the pump off. The cam and spring have an inner sleeve that apparently was dislodged. I put it back and back on the engine and it pumped away!!. I don't know for how long. It`s the delphi?? Something like that. Cheapo.