The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 58 Car 235 into 51 3100

I have a 51 3100 1/2 ton with the original 216 and three speed transmission
I have purchased a 235 from a 58 car, which comes complete with mated transmission (also 3 speed column shift manual) and all ancillaries on the engine (Manifolds, carb, starter, generator etc etc)
I had posted question in the Driveline section inviting inputs on what transmission I should enterain and actually got some engine swap advice there
I'd like to pick up the engine swap side of things here to invite further inputs on anything else I might be missing
As per the advice on the Driveline thread, I think for sure at this point will retain the original transmission, at least for now, and leave the drive-line for possible futiue consideration (or maybe not!)

Here is the relevent part of the other thread with some pointers from @Jethro in VA

Your 1958 block ~should~ have two provisions for the throttle linkage pivot. If so, just need to move it to the correct spot and use the 216 linkage.

Looks like you’re on the right track. Get the right bellhousing. Front motor mount. Water pump.

The original 216 Bell-Housing (with Flywheel, clutch and starter) all work, right?

I found this guide and thisMotor mount timing cover mod template invaluable.

Yes, I used it all on my 216/235 conversion. Bolts right on, bolts right up. Just make sure the bell housing and flywheel are Tight.
Once you drill the holes for the front mount, you must install the new front mount Before you install the engine.

Use the pedal-to-carb linkage from the 216. The pic shows the 2 mounting positions on a 57 235. Use the one with the screw in the pic. Carefully remove the stud from the 216 and use it. The 235 stud won't work. Remove it and replace with the screw.
Compare the intake manifolds... if the 235 manifold has shorter heat box (where the carb mounts) then it's a 3754644 manifold and you will have to use the upper carb linkage from that engine. See pic. The 216 linkage will bind.

Great info!
Reading the notes from the tech guide, it says you have to pull the balancer - is that necessary? From the pic, I'm not seeing it - but I guess they wouldn't say that if its not necessary

Now... waterpump. In 56 the models were all changed, car and truck, to a lower more stylish stance. They lowered the radiator so they lowered the waterpump. Now it won't work for a simple swap because the fan is hitting the radiator in the older trucks.

One way is to take the pump off and press the pulley farther on the shaft and cut the excess off. One of the members will chime in and give you the gory details on how to do that. Problem is... now the fan is no longer in the center of the radiator, which may give cooling problems later.

I bought one of Pre68 Dave's adapter plates (he's one of us.) had my 216 waterpump rebuilt and the waterpump/fan is where it's supposed to be. See pics. Use the "search" feature and type in "Dave's adapter plate" Just grit your teeth and follow his instructions to the letter. Mine has not leaked a drop. No cooling issues. Oh yeah, use the 216 fan.

Yes, you will need to use the 216 damper. Smaller diameter than the 235. Replace that seal while you have the balancer off. Line up the keyway and drive the 216 pulley on with a big block of wood and an 8 lb sledge. Do that After you install the front motor mount!

Ps. If you use your current temp sensor you will need an adapter. The hole is too big. Got mine at NAPA.

Another ps... take out the distributor and clean it good... make sure the weights are free to flop. Note the position of the rotor when you remove it and point it the same way when you reinstall it.

Jethro in Va. Now I don't have a horse in this race but using the 8 pound sledge with that thrust bearing to back it may be a little overkill. maybe you have a helper keeping the crank pried forward IDK just a caution. My last one I used an oaken 2x2 and just a large shop hammer ,it's running fine.

Lots more great info - thank you

I will likely put an HEI on there, but will get it running first!

What is the best method to remove the seal?
On my Motorcycle main output shaft seal I would use a couple of self-tapping machine screws at 180 into the seal and then pull it out using those
Will that work here or is there a better method?

Where exactly do you put the wooden block shim/block at the bellhousing to protect the main thrust bearing?
(Some of these things will be more obvious/make more sense once I actually get into it)
Edit - OK, think I got that one just wedge a block between back of flywheel and the bellhousing - can do that step while I am swapping the bells, clutch and tranny out

LOVE this forum, a TON of great info and everyone willing to help.

I thought I pasted this earlier but I guess not:

http://chev235guy.blogspot.com/search/label/216%20235%20Throttle%20Pivot%20Positions

Fixite... at 70 years old, I can't swing an 8 lb like I did 40 yrs ago. I used it like a dead blow. Should have said that, I guess. Stood a 4x4 up against the damper.

D'Ecosse On the wooden block,just have a helper pry the crankshaft forward so that each lick of the hammer will be away from your thrust bearing. The heavy crankshaft absorbs the blow,you'll notice a change when the harmonic balancer hits bottom and your beltsshould line up.

How about this one, guys?

I think you 'll be able to get it out with a regular seal puling tool.

The process you describe does work for this seal too.

The shop manual actually says to remove the seal "... by prying it out of the cover from the front with a large screwdriver.".

Dan

Researching the Timing Plate Mods some more:

I got the Stovebelt tech guide and the template, also found this engine build tech guide - https://www.chevydiy.com/how-to-assemble-a-chevy-inline-6-engine-after-rebuild/;
There is some perhaps contradictory info between the two;
in the latter guide it says for the Timing plate installation ....


From the tech guide and advice earlier, it suggests to insert the bolts in with the balancer removed (while also replacing the seal in the cover) i.e. NOT with the cover removed, just the balancer
(See the first image attached which follows this counsel where they have put the bolts in while installing the plate)

I trust my learned 'Bolters here so I presume the Bolts will go in without having to remove the timing cover?
(I did learn something here - earlier I had perceived it was the PLATE that was bolted from the inside, appears it is the COVER)

The other question is regarding the hole mod for the timing plate:

The drawing suggest 1/2" hole - the bolts I understand are 7/16" carriage - so I presume the 1/2" holes reflect clearance for the square 'carriage' section
So ideally I should really drill 7/16" holes and file square if I want the anti-rotation capability of the carriage - yes?
It must be hard otherwise if you use a carriage bolt - or do you use a regular hex bolt and get a wrench on it BEFORE installing the Balancer (in which case, why not still 7/16" hole?)

Jethro, your light blue engine looks like a Ford 200!

Same color as the 216 I pulled out of it. Can said "GM Blue."
Carolina fans like it.

My ‘59 235 was already installed when I bought my ‘52. When I rebuilt the engine, I found my plate was drilled round. “Pre ‘68 Dave”, on his website shows the plate having square holes. Maybe he could elaborate if he sees this post. Here is a link. http://chev235guy.blogspot.com/search/label/Timing%20Plate%20Drill%20Template

Thanks @Phak 1
Was it drilled round 7/16 or 1/2" - and did you use carriage bolts?
I can only imagine the 1/2" is to clear the square on the 7/16" carriage bolt shoulder
If indeed it was 1/2" round (and it had to be if the holes were round and used a 7/16" carriage bolt) can you recall further, does a 7/16" carriage bolt fit through that 1/2" hole with the timing cover in place?
I'm wondering if that 1/2" hole allows for better angle of entry to get it through with the cover in place ....
edit - clearance for a 7/16" bolt is 29/64"

For others searching I found this excellent thread - https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/908168/1.html - with extremely good info referenced to Lonniec (it's an inserted quote in a DADS50 post) and some terrific pictures by Denny Graham
Lonniec reported (and there's an image) that showed his installer ground the head of the bolt for the passenger side to get it in under the timing cover on that side.

Also in an unrelated post on Alternator Mount I happened across this image from @Poncho52 which is an interesting idea of using the nuts on the top side for the centre bolts
Image only shows the drivers side though - there may still be an issue with the passenger side, at least with a view to using a nylok nut.

WIld idea - I'm toying with the idea of making a rectangular slot on the timing plate on the passenger side which would allow the carriage bolt to slide in under the timing cover; the drivers side would be regular square.
To make, drill 7/16" holes, square off both holes, then file futher on the passenger side to create a slot, just wide enough (TBD) to get the bolt in place.
The side to side and final position of the passenger side bolt would be constrained by the driver's side bolt and once torqued, even the passenger side would likely be a non-issue in that plane.
And the vertical integrity for me would be better than grinding the head of the bolt.

Thoughts/comments?

A lot depends on how accessible it will be to work the hole with a hand-file, especially on the passenger side because of the timing cover and exacerbated by working from underneath
Going to attempt this while engine is still in the wooden cradle in bed of the truck with the front of engine over-hanging over the rear of bed of the truck.

Edit - this was based on a comment I had read regarding clearance for the inboard bolt on the passenger side
(See the previous post where I got fixed upon the reported issue of interference of the passenger side bolt with the timing cover)

See the next post, I don't believe this is going to be an issue, at least on this particular motor, now I see what I'm working with.
So that 'solution' is not going to be necessary.

So I got the new engine home and started dis-assembly and looking into things.
There is a TON of space on this engine below the timing cover cup - is it perhaps different on this model of 235? (a '58)
See the image below

I have since actually pulled the harmonic balancer off (man was that on there TIGHT! - but eventually got it off)
I'll take a better picture tomorrrow that shows the space front-on, but even from this image before I pulled it, you can see how much space there is there.

That seemed contradictory to all the information I have been reading previously



So I'm already thinking, just round 7/16 (clearance) holes and regular hex bolts, either 'normal' orientation, or with the bolts inverted and nylok nuts on the top.
Either way it's hard to see an issue installing a new mount before installing the harmonic balancer.

Balancer removed and Seal pulled
Holes drilled for the new Mount - right now these are just clearance for 7/16" bolts
Water Pump removed (it was not leaking but going to install a new one)
Contacted "pre '68 Dave" and ordered a WP Adapter plate (he was extremely responsive - Thank you Dave!)
Ordered new Stainless hardware for the pump plate, New Pump, Drill/Tap set plus a Bottom Tap, Front Seal, Repair Sleeve for Balancer, Engine Mount and Clutch
(The Clutch was OK on the 216, but for the amazing price of $87 on a full kit from Rock Auto, it just makes sense to put a new one in)
Generator, Starter, Transmission, Clutch, Flywheel and Bellhousing all pulled in prep for swap of the 216 components after that engine gets pulled.

Don’t forget to add a little oil to the end of the crankshaft and inside the harmonic balancer. You’ll use less force to drive it on. Just some friendly advice.

You’ll want a little oil on the oil seal too.

I bought a new pump to go with the adapter plate from Pre '68 Dave and got that installed using the previously recommended Permatex Super 300
A cautionary note to others who might undertake the Adapter installation:
I followed the instructions and marked the hole locations as described, removed the pump and plate assembly and drilled them to depth and tapped.
Then I found I could not get it to bolt up, the holes were slightly misaligned. Perhaps I should have drilled the initial holes deeper to ensure I had it centered properly after removing the assembly.
If I was to do it again, I think I would leave the pump/plate in place and drill them like that to ensure the drill stayed aligned.
As it was I had to drill out the pump and adapter to larger size to get it to fit (not a big deal really in the grand scheme however)
I did put sealer on those bolts as well as between the mating surfaces to ensure no leak at those new tapped holes.

Drilled and Tapped the crank to pull on the Balancer rather than beat it on - one of the local Bolters loaned me the The 12Bolt Snout Drilling Fixture you know who you are, big thank you for that! (another kind bolter loaned me their home-made 'driver' - but I shouldn't need that now, with the crank having been tapped.)
I do have a balancer install kit, which is essentially a bolt and a bearing. Won't get to that until I pull the 216 however.
When I do get around to installing, I do have a sleeve for the Balancer and have already installed a new seal (although that is not shown in the attached pics)

I also mounted the Front Engine Mount - inverted the bolts with the nuts on the top, to work around the issue of getting the passenger side in - I think that seems to work well! Used a couple of star washers and Nylok Nuts.

I do have one question about the Flywheel end:
Where would this oil be coming from? I took this today after it had been sitting about a week.
Note that the Pilot Bearing has not been fully installed - I decided against using that one that came with the Clutch Kit and decided to get a better one (steel/Bronze) from Rock Auto.
Incidentally the 'bread trick' worked fabulously in removing the old bushing!

I used some of my Grandchildren’s “Play-Doh” instead of bread, easy clean up and worked well to remove my pilot bearing.
Was it necessary to use a tool to ensure the seal in the timing cover was centered around the harmonic balancer before tightening the timing gear cover to the engine? This procedure is shown on page 6-32 of the 1954 truck Shop Manual. Does everyone do this?

Have to say there was zero clean-up with bread either, but sure I get that Play-doh would work - might argue peeling all the Play-doh out of the orifice could be more (?) challenging than bread.
But more than one way to skin a cat and can't argue with what worked,
I did not remove my timing cover - wasn't any need to in my case
But I can certainly appreciate that the procedure you describe would indeed be valuable if the cover had been removed/loosened up.

I had to reinstall the cover on my ‘59 235, and the tool is necessary. There is enough slop in the cover bolts that the seal wouldn’t be centered. I made one on my lathe out of wood.