I am still having some issues with my regulator being intermittent and I am considering installing a alternator. I have read a few posts concerning the wiring part, but I have not seen anything on the mechanical part. So my questions are what is involved in changing the mount to accept a alternator, and is there a specific year model/size that would be best to find? Do you buy new, or find something in a junk yard so you can also get the mounting parts? The truck is still pretty much original; other than installing turn signals, I have not added any electrical load to the system and have no plans to at present so I do not need a high output alternator. The truck is a 56, so it is already 12 volts. Thanks, Lee.
There are a number of threads on alternator conversion, so I won't repeat much of the info - fairly easy to do - and brackets are available from the usual suppliers. Here's one vendor by way of example (no affiliation) that makes every type of bracket imaginable for these engines: Chevy 235/261 Brackets.
Here's a brief summary of Delco options for commonly used 10Si or 12Si alternators (internally regulated), including their original GM service fitment, which helps if you source a remanufactured alternator from a local parts store. For most fairly stock vehicles, the added cost, higher amperage of further upgrade to CS-130/144 alternators isn't needed.
It pays to find true Delco-Remy alternators in my experience. There are various models that are clocked differently, which facilitates mounting on the passenger side of the engine, if that's desired. Here's another article that explains more on that, and at the very end lists more part numbers and original GM applications. More on 10Si and 12Si alternator selection.
Although there are pros & con of one-wire vs three-wire alternators, I prefer three-wire, since that style allows running the sense wire closer to the battery for better charging regulation, and there's never an issue with self-exciting the alternator. It's a toss-up, otherwise. Simplified three-wire diagram, inserted for reference.
2. Alan Grove mounting brackets 224L, $66 free ship, Ebay.
The diagram from DrDoug is not the usual diagram I use. It has a confusing wire shown. So ignore the wire from battery to ign switch. Your ignition switch already has that wire. Also ignore the wire to PCH/Fuse block/Relay.
Wire the "three wire" version as follows. 1. Alternator blade terminal no.1 to a idiot light (bulb), thru the bulb to ignition switch "ACC" terminal. If you don't care about having an "annunciator" light, just wire no.1 to ignition "ACC". 2. Alternator blade terminal 2 is wired with a short jumper to the big alternator stud. 3. Battery to big stud. 4. Ammeter abandoned. Attach all it's wires to a suitable terminal block.
As you can see, only two wires actually leave the alternator, but it's called a three wire style install because the original GM "alternator" system used three wires. (sometimes four)
The 56 above and your AD have ammeters. If either wants an indicator light, you buy a socket and bulb and add it somewhere. There are many nice looking ones on the internet. You need the two wire type. If not, wire to ignition (switched power) as described. I am not advising on wiring when keeping the ammeter in a 12V and/or alternator conversion. A bulb and a volt meter would be part of the conversion. Abandon the ammeter. Attach all of it's wires together on a suitable terminal block.
Ammeter modifications and wiring for alternator conversions, keeping ammeter, is covered on Stovebolt pages. Do these at your own risk.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
If you use or install the warning light, you have to remember that if the bulb burns out, the alternator will not turn on and the battery will discharge.
Terminal 2 "voltage sensing" can be connected at a different points such a fuse panel or distribution post. An example of need could be a remote battery location. The voltage may drop a little from long cable runs. The voltage sensing can increase the voltage a little to make up the difference. Normally it's not needed for our AD trucks.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
Lee, are you beginning to see that it's simpler to fix the system you've got than trying to reinvent the wheel? Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
The 56 above and your AD have ammeters. If either wants an indicator light, you buy a socket and bulb and add it somewhere. There are many nice looking ones on the internet. You need the two wire type. If not, wire to ignition ON (switched power) as described. I am not advising on wiring when keeping the ammeter in a 12V and/or alternator conversion. A bulb and a volt meter would be part of the conversion. Abandon the ammeter. Attach all of it's wires together on a suitable terminal block.
Ammeter modifications and wiring for alternator conversions, keeping ammeter, is covered on Stovebolt pages. Do these at your own risk.
It is 12v. I’d prefer to keep the generator, but my system isn’t charging. Once I can get some time to diagnose…then I will decide which way to go.
No immediate plans. Your explanation of the wiring was simple enough to get my simple brain around…and so I just got curious.
I went with one wire alternators on both my 38 and 53. A 6v one wire on the 38 while I converted the 53 to 12v. As noted above the brackets are readily available although not inexpensive. On both vehicles I connected the heavy wire that connects to the voltage regulator BAT terminal to the output lug on the alternator so the ammeter is in play.
Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. The three main causes of blindness: Cataracts, Politics, Religion. Name your dog Naked so you can walk Naked in the park.
I certainly see the benefit of switching to an alternator, especially if I was needing to replace the generator too. But since all I really need is a working regulator, it should be cheaper and easier just to replace it. If I also was needing more power for accessories, that would be another reason to go with an alternator. I’ll keep looking around and see if maybe I can find a regulator in a junk yard to try. I am disappointed that the new regulator I purchased 2 years ago is already having issues, so I will try other options before I buy another new one again. I can drive all day (no nights!) with just my battery easily enough so I am in no hurry. Thanks all for your input, I appreciate it!
I really just winged the mounting. I gathered all the parts I could find in the junkyard and drilled new holes, bent the "bayonet" slider, etc. The belt is very slightly askew but, as advised here, it has worked just fine.
34 Years. Now with a '61 261, 848 head, Rochester Monojet carb, SM420 4-speed, 4.10 rear, dual reservoir MC, Bendix up front, 235/85R16 tires, 12-volt w/alternator, electric wipers and a modern radio in the glove box.
34 Years. Now with a '61 261, 848 head, Rochester Monojet carb, SM420 4-speed, 4.10 rear, dual reservoir MC, Bendix up front, 235/85R16 tires, 12-volt w/alternator, electric wipers and a modern radio in the glove box.
Lee, if the tag is still on the generator, PM me the Delco P/N from the tag. I may have a NOS Delco regulator that is a match to the generator in my parts collection. I wouldn't trust junkyard units, FWIW. NOS Delco units pop up on eBay all the time (sometimes for reasonable $), but it's important to match the current rating of the generator to the regulator.
On topic Commentary: The point is that we have had many posts over many years. People having troubles with 6V generator/VR charging systems. Over and over and over. We go thru a 6 page troubleshooting marathon including an explanation of electricity and the aurora borealis. Then a search for the "correct" suitable part and spending lots of money. Trying to figure it out, send to a "shop" to get gouged or buying an alternator that looks like a generator and etc. Very few post with 12V 10si type alternator issues. Because they are a very reliable, solid state, hi performance, easy to troubleshoot, cheap and easy to find. Available in any FLAPS/online/donor. Replace in 10 minutes.
Last edited by Rusty Rod; 12/25/20213:51 AM.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
Being born broke and cheap I haven't completely whipped the broke part but have definitely worked on the being cheap part. This has led to generators/regulators being completely abandoned as both are way more expensive than a lifetime guarantee alternator plus the alternator is nearly trouble free for years and parts are everywhere. All my equipment and vehicles have 3 wire alternators with just a wire on the BAT post and #2 terminal. All self energize with a quip blip to 2500 rpms so nothing needed on then #1 terminal. Friend with rebuild shop saves ones that self energize when testing for me.
Being born broke and cheap I haven't completely whipped the broke part but have definitely worked on the being cheap part. This has led to generators/regulators being completely abandoned as both are way more expensive than a lifetime guarantee alternator plus the alternator is nearly trouble free for years and parts are everywhere. All my equipment and vehicles have 3 wire alternators with just a wire on the BAT post and #2 terminal. All self energize with a quip blip to 2500 rpms so nothing needed on then #1 terminal. Friend with rebuild shop saves ones that self energize when testing for me.
Is this a different alternator setup than what the other fellows are describing here? I’m a little lost.
No nothing different. I believe he is just saying he uses the 10si style alternator as we have discussed. He does not hook up the blade terminal 1 to anything. He is forgoing the exciter wire altogether. This is why he has to rev up to get the alternator to start charging. He choses not to use a light bulb or resistor or switched voltage wired to blade 1. The "blip to 2500" can be a problem with an automatic choke on a cold morning. The blip will release the choke.
The beauty of the bulb is that it does two things, provides exciter function and a tell tale warning light. Learning to bulb check this system is no different than modern vehicles. All bulbs come on with ignition and go off after start. This is the "bulb check" function. If any of these bulbs do not come on, on our modern cars and trucks during MVD inspection, you fail even though that's all that is bad.
There is a true one wire alternator being sold. It is a 10si case with a plug over the two blade terminal. It supposedly is self exciting and internally sensed. It's pretty much a gimmick. It does have a different regulator in it that self excites, some have no provision for a warning light.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
Yep, just think how much quicker we could have won WW II if all those trucks, tanks, and airplanes were equipped with alternators instead of generators! LOL! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Don't have to wonder. Desert Storm ground assault took 100 hours til cease fire. Entire war was 43 days. 1st and 2nd Marine Divisions and the 1st Light Armored Infantry Battalion. 3rd Armored Division, Navy, Air Force and coalition forces.
General Norman Schwarzkopf: Central Command
Lt. General, John John Yeosock: 3rd Army General Walter Boomer: USMC General Charles Horner: USAF Admiral Stanley Arthur" USN Admiral J. William Kime: US Coast Guard Lt. General Robert Johnston: USMC
Dedicated men and women Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Guardsmen, staff, support, wives, husbands, families....with alternators.
Last edited by bartamos; 10/24/20226:17 PM.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
When lengthening gen. bracket for alt., shape the ends to mate with a V shape on mating ends, then one can clamp the mating ends with a small clamp while tack welding, the V shape will keep both pieces aligned so there will be no kink in the assembly.
Ed
'37 GMC T-18 w/ DD 4-53T, RTO-610, 6231 aux., '95 GMC running gear, full disc brakes, power steering, 22.5 wheels and tires. '47 GMC 1 ton w/ 302, NP-540, 4wd, full width Blazer front axle. '54 GMC 630 w/ 503 gasser, 5 speed, ex fire truck, shortened WB 4', install 8' bed. '55 GMC 370 w/270, 420 4 speed, grain, dump bed truck from ND. Works OK.
Regarding generator to alternator conversion, I don't see the point unless you are adding electrical equipment like sound systems, HVAC, etc.
The most important thing to do with a generator system is to make sure your battery is always at full charge, and that the generator and VR are working properly. Assuming all your cable connections and wiring are up to snuff, there are very little problems with these systems.
I've been driving my 1956 Cadillac as a daily driver for 20 years with its original generator. It's been rebuilt once and I've had to replace the brushes twice. My mom has been using her 1964 Galaxie 500 as semi regular transportation since 1989. It too has a generator that is perfectly adequate for the car's needs.
I recently had the 6v generator on the '50 Chevy truck rebuilt . I purchased an new, 6v American made regulator as well. Made by Regitar. The only difference is that GM changed the design of the VR cover in 1956 (I think) so that all 6v and 12v regulators share the same cover. The early 6v covers have a different bolt pattern so I couldn't install the original cover on the new regulator.
Last edited by Otto Skorzeny; 01/05/20224:20 PM.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Otto, I understand that many folks are happy with what they have. That is not the point. The recommendation I always have is for folks having trouble with their VR/Gen system. Keep buying parts and still have trouble. Don't understand how to troubleshoot or fix it themselves. Can't find parts out on the road. If they do, they are expensive. Finding a shop that can rebuild and paying that price. It's for folks converted/converting to 12V. They have to buy a new set of VR/Gen.
This post is just answering the original question. It's not recommending that everybody suddenly change. It's an explanation of how and why for certain folks. There is only good to be had with the 12V/Alt conversion. There is no negative. Simple is better than complicated. Bit if you are satisfied with what you have, there is no negative in staying with it.
I highly doubt your regulator was made in the USA. Better read the website. It's probably Chinese.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
showkey As a cheap shot you can mount your alternator on all thread,belt it up try it,just put nuts on the allthread to secure it. That is a quick way to get one home !!
LeeD Don't let all that conversation change your mind the alternator system is great ! Read-up on it you can do it.Not a56 guy so can't remember if you have an ammeter or a light,if indicator light use 3-wire alternator ,if ammeter use 1-wire or could install aan ammeter if you don't want the light. Plenty of info on the stovebolt to helpyou with this !! Good Luck !!
Lee D The first version of delcotron with internal regulator will work .Going to a one wire simplifies it a lot more,then you just make a junction at the old regulator sight,belt it up and it shows charge on your dash. See instructions on stovebolt how to do it.
1. Delcotron was an externally regulated alternator. It was used with a separate voltage regulator. Was called a Delcotron Generator. The name in my opinion refers to a externally regulated "alternator". It's claim to fame was a diode rectifier and rotor/stator/slip ring design.
2. The "modern" 10SI Delco is an internally regulated alternator. It can be wired with or without an indicator light. There are folks who's motor "ran on" and they fixed it with a light or resistor or a diode. There are many folks who have none of those and have no trouble. Mad Electric said you DO NOT need a light or etc. Each "run on" situation has to be examined for how and where the "switched" exciter power is wired. What terminal on the ignition switch and if ammeter or volt meter. I have not studied why some with no light, resistor or diode have a problem and some don't. You would have to do some testing while it's "running on". If a person has an ignition switch with a "ACC" terminal I believe that is isolated from IGN ON. The ACC terminal would be used for alternator pin 1.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
The theory that adding a bulb will stop the over-run but a straight wire will not, makes no sense. We know that the bulb is used to indicate charge. The bulb must be in a two wire socket. One side is to the alternator blade terminal 1 and the other is to the ignition. (to a terminal that is hot when key is on).
When key goes to on, 12V goes from the switch thru the bulb and finds ground inside the alternator. The light lights. When the motor starts, and alternator is charging properly, 12V is sent thru the exciter wire (blade terminal 1) to the bulbs other end. Since there is no potential/no difference/no flow/no ground, the bulb goes out. So we got that.
Now people who are supposed to be experts say use a bulb if you want an indicator. Use a straight wire if you don't. The blogosphere says some folks have run-on with a straight wire, but a bulb stops that because it has "resistance". So what?
If the motor stays running it means the coil is getting voltage. The only place to get voltage with key off (unless some kind of wire screw up) is from the spinning alternator. Voltage goes up the wire, which has a little resistance, to the ignition switch terminal which is "off".... But if that wire is on the same terminal as the coil wire, off is not off. Voltage continues thru the coil windings resistance, to the distributor, thru the points resistance to ground. SUPPOSEDLY. Some trucks have a ballast resistor. It goes thru that too. All that resistance and it still runs? But a little 1 amp light bulb that may or may not draw 1 amp at that point, but relies on the filament resistance, and that's enough extra to stop the motor? Not sure about that.
I believe various issue cause some to have run-on, some not 1. Miswire 2. Non isolated ignition switch terminals or a bad switch 3. No ballast 6V systems 4. HEI 5. One wire alternator 6. long wire runs 7. Short wire runs
The fact is, many folks run a straight wire. no problem. MAD Electrics and others say no bulb needed except for indicator.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
No LED's for that. They have polarity (directional installation) and may not operate as a warning indicator. As far as the "resistance" use we are talking, I don't think they have much.
May be possible with a few extra parts designed into the "circuit". I'm not up on that.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
I recently installed 12v LED railing lights the other day and saw no mention of polarity in the instructions. The 2 wires from the light were both black. I think they had a little analyzing and switching circuit so they would work either way. It would be nice if LEDs in our trucks worked that way.
34 Years. Now with a '61 261, 848 head, Rochester Monojet carb, SM420 4-speed, 4.10 rear, dual reservoir MC, Bendix up front, 235/85R16 tires, 12-volt w/alternator, electric wipers and a modern radio in the glove box.
No LED's for that. They have polarity (directional installation) and may not operate as a warning indicator. As far as the "resistance" use we are talking, I don't think they have much.
May be possible with a few extra parts designed into the "circuit". I'm not up on that.
The fact is many folks run a straight wire. no problem. MAD Electrics and others say no bulb need except for indicator. Go figure. No really...go figure/give your opinion and let the info flow.
I don't do 'opinions' but was curious about this so I did some experimenting with my truck. It is a custom harness and the exciter wire is connected to the ACC side of the fuse panel so it is separate from the ignition hot side. The wire connects to an indicator lamp and the lamp to the alternator. The alternator is a run of the mill 10SI GM alternator, an early one that is not metric. The ammeter always indicates charge immediately when the engine fires.
First I took the bulb out. With an open circuit to the exciter terminal the alternator did not immediately charge. When I increased the rpm to about 3000 it began to charge and continued to operate as normal once it started to charge.
Then I bypassed the bulb with a shunt which would be the same as a straight wire from the ACC side of the switch to the alternator. The alternator began to charge immediately when the engine fired up. When I turned off the ignition the engine died just like normal. I repeated this exercise several times and the engine never ran on after the ignition was turned off, no different than with the indicator lamp in the circuit.
So in my case, having an indicator lamp made no difference. I am keeping the indicator lamp in the circuit, I don't want to risk the run on situation which would likely happen at the most inopportune time.
