Hello! This is my first post here on Stovebolt. I don't have a truck, I have '41 Chevy coupe that I'm building but the motor will be a 235...and I have been hard pressed to find better forum-based info on these engines anywhere else!
I've read a lot of posts about different cams for the 235, and many say to avoid hydraulic lifters because of the poor quality of presently available parts. I've also read lots of recommendations for cams. Trouble is, nearly every post I land on is at least 10 years old, and the recommendations don't seem to be listed or available anymore.
So here's details about the engine, and then the question...
Engine - 1957 Chevy 235, passenger Intended build - street engine, with bolt on upgrades (fenton split headers, would like to run an offy tripple 1 barrel manifold) Looking for nostalgic look and sound, around town drive-ability, will get some highway use but not much. I pan on ditching the hydraulic lifters (they are worn out) for mechanical. I don't mind mechanical and period adjustment at all, and the original 1941 engine would have been mechanical anyway. This is not a go-fast build.
Questions
1) Good sources of solid lifters that will let me re-use the existing pushrods? 2) Who makes a decent solid-lifer cam, only present-day list I can find is from Elgin E-293-S 3) I've read about a 261 cam but I can't find a present-day source of an equivalent grind...minor improvement is fine, lumpy cams (for me) is not. 4) I've read a lot about "Patricks"...they don't seem to exist now. Website dead, lots of posts about them becoming unresponsive. I assume they are no longer in business. Langdons and Howards don't have present listings for these cams. Comp Cams only seems to offer higher-performance grinds and mostly for hydraulic at that.
So, no rocket science in this build, just need solid, reliable parts. Lots of older information out there, but it seems availability of these parts has really dried up since those posts were written. Looking forward to suggestions!
Matt
69chevy guy
2 x 1941 Chevy Coupes, 3 x Chevy stovebolts (2x 216, 1 x 235) 69 Impala
Your planned build sounds a lot like my engine. I have a 235 out of a '56 Belair, bored .30 over, with an Erson mild cam with hydraulic lifters, Fenton headers, and an Offy 2 1bbl carb setup. I got my cam from Patricks, but I understand that they are out of business now. You can still get cams for the 235. Speedway Motors has them. eBay has them. You can get a solid lifter cam from eBay. You can also get them from Amazon.
Langdon's does have the camshaft: http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/online-catalog/#!/~/search/keyword=camshaft and both hydraulic and solid lifters: http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/online-catalog/#!/~/search/keyword=lifters, but they do not sell pushrods.
One very interesting cam that I've discovered recently looks good on paper- - - - -the Melling CCS-1. It's a solid lifter shaft with a slightly more radical grind than the Elgin E-293, which is a clone of the Corvette/261 cam except for the lash adjustment figures. I bought one a couple of weeks ago, and it will be going into the prototype test engine I'm working on for dyno testing at the moment. On Ebay, it's also slightly less expensive than the Elgin cam.
Both styles of solid lifters are available on Ebay, and Comp Cams will custom make pushrods to any specifications you want, if regular stovebolt pushrods don't work for some reason. There are two different lengths of pushrods for the 54-62 235, depending on whether the tall "milk can" lifters are used, or the shorter, more conventional design is installed. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Hey guys, thanks for this. You see, this is what I'm talking about! This is why I joined...
Pushrods - it's my understanding that (at least in 1957) the pushrods are the same regardless if the lifters are hydraulic or solid, although I don't know about other years. The "Milk can" style lifters were gone by this point and the solids looked identical to the hydraulics, less the retaining clip above the cup. If I can get new solids that are exact replacements for those available that year, I'll be good with the pushrods. I realized after looking at them that in 1957, the pushrods didn't supply oil to the rockers...the pushrods were solid!
Paul, thanks for the tips on where to find things. I tend to shy away from eBay and Amazon (what's your recourse if theres an issue or you need tech help...typically none) and for others I found some references that may be ok but no specs on them. So your info is helpful to drill down.
Jerry thank you also I was wondering if the Elgin cam was more or less a 261 solid lifter cam. The Melling cam does sound interesting. Please keep us posted! I may spring for the Elgin unit in the meantime...I hear the "corvette grind" 261 cam is a perfect mix of added power without any lumpy idle which is ideal for what kind of use this will see.
69chevy guy
2 x 1941 Chevy Coupes, 3 x Chevy stovebolts (2x 216, 1 x 235) 69 Impala
Ok, cam, Schneider Cams in San Diego is still in business and you get to call, talk to the boss (Jerry), tell him what you want and what you have, and he will grind you a cam. Clifford Performance (expensive), Isky and Howards all can get you a cam. There are other alternatives also. In fact, there are a handful of small cam grinders that can grind you a cam. I used Schneider for my last four cams and like the product and the fact that he will make up a grind to fit your needs.
Solid lifters for a 56 block, do not use the milk bottle style early lifters. They are for early 55 and prior motors, and some of the NOS milk bottle lifters are for a steel cam and not compatible with a cast cam. They will not work in the late 55 -62 blocks. You want to use the solid lifters from a 56-62 261 chevy truck motor. Same shape and design as the hydraulic lifters you currently have. You will also see solid lifters advertised for 55-62, same thing. NOS, RNOS or new manufacture, all good to use no problem. When I get home tonight I will try to post a photo of the two styles so you can see what we are talking about.
Push rods, don't mess around here. The after market push rods are tube style and way stronger then the stock push rods, and they are not all that expensive. A broken or bent push rod on the other hand runs the risk of doing a little damage. Order push rods for 56-62 235 chevy or 56-62 261 chevy, they are all the same length and style.
Hydraulic lifters, yes an issue. The new versions have a nasty little habit and reputation of collapsing within a short period. If you want a hydraulic cam and lifter, get real GM NOS lifters, or aftermarket lifters (Johnson, TRW, Sealed Power, Elgin) that are at least 25 years old and made in usa. There are two types of GM NOS Hydraulic lifters, 55-58, 59-62. Truth be told, I have never investigated the difference, I have always just used the correct lifter for the year of the block.
3X1, looks cool, tough sometimes to get sorted out for the street, especially if you are trying to run three Rochesters. I ran that set up for a time, still have the intake, could never get it to run great on the street unless I was buzzing the motor a bit. Consider a 2X1 with adapters (Langdon sells them) and run either a pair of 1974 Ford Pinto Holley/Weber progressive two bbls or a pair of the Carter/Webers that Tom Langdon sells. They will run way better on the street then two single bbl carbs or three single bbl carbs. If three carbs is what you are after, and you have room, then you should also consider three ford pinto carbs or the carter weber carbs. Again, progressive 2 bbls, like a quadrajet, small primary, larger secondary.
Fentons, they will work just fine. Clifford still sells real tube headers. Do a YouTube search for clifford performance and there is a video of Larry from clifford starting up a 235 with his headers. I have run old style Clifford long tube headers since 1981. Love them and love how they sound. There are some cheap sort of tube style headers floating around. Take a pass, they just plain suck. If running an offy manifold, they will generally bolt up to a stock exhaust manifold. So you could also cut a stock manifold up and make your own split manifold with the added benefit of keeping the heat riser system.
Speaking of offy intakes, if you flip one upside down, you will see two or three steel plugs staked into place. If you are going to run Fentons or Clifford headers, and you are not going to run the copper tubes for exhaust heat, but run hot water to the bottom of the intake (Langdon recommended and yep, it works really well), you have to weld little aluminum discs over the plugs. Those casting core plugs will leak if you dont.
Clifford Performance offers a complete all in one cam kit for the 235/261. For intakes I buy from a man out of Cedar Hill, Texas that has probably more inline six intakes than anyone. All cleaned up an around half price of new ones. Very short name like Aze??
Hotrod cams on a stovebolt are like lipstick on a pig. The only thing a stovebolt six has going for it is torque, and too much duration destroys that. Extra lift? Maybe on the exhaust. The intake valve gets close enough to the piston already, even with a stock cam. If you want to make the engine idle rough and make people think it's something it's not, go for it! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Believe it or not, the ford pinto carbs run great right out of the box and need only a mixture and idle adjustment So not terrible to get correct, even with a lot of cam.
Different strokes- - - - -etc. If you insist on using a long duration cam and multiple carbs, factor in a 6-speed transmission or so. That way you can keep the engine revved up all the time so you can actually make use of the tiny power gain the go-fast stuff creates- - - -only in RPM ranges most people never see on a street machine. Both the cams I recommended are useful at sane engine speeds and they don't ruin low-end torque and destroy manifold vacuum.
BTW- - - -there's a listing on Ebay today for a set of 12 new Melling tubular pushrods for 235 engines. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
These are the two styles of lifters. The shorter GM lifter on the right is actually a 55-58 hydraulic lifter but the 59-63 hydraulic lifters and the solid lifters for 56-63 have the same outward design. The lifter on the left is what is sometimes referred to as a milkcan style lifter.
Stovebolt engines have two different cam bearing sizes, depending on the year of manufacture and the displacement of the engines. 216's and spray-oiler 235's have smaller cam bearing journals than the full-pressure lubed 235's and 261's. The cams are like the crankshafts, as they have four different bearing journal sizes, but they differ in the fact that cam bearings get smaller as they approach the back of the engine. As an experiment, I just used a lathe and a tool post grinder to reduce the size of a 235 cam and made it fit a 216 block. If you want to give a 216 a bit more pep, put a Corvette 235 cam or the Melling CCS-1 into it. Just be sure and run a valve-to-piston clearance check to be sure the hotter cam doesn't cause intake valve interference problems. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Wow, awesome thanks guys...ton of info here. Mike - yes thanks I have the later style lifters and I would really prefer to go solids. I'm glad that part is an easy swap.
Jerry I hear you loud and clear, and this isn't a performance build. Its to have a solid running, street driving motor with a nostalgic sound and appearance. This thing is never going to win any races, especially with the factory '41 Chevy 3 speed box and 4.11 gears in the back. So you nailed it and I think your cam suggestions will work well. As for everyone else's suggestions, thank you also! It gives me a lot to research and consider...and tons of good leads on parts. Awesome.
Matt
69chevy guy
2 x 1941 Chevy Coupes, 3 x Chevy stovebolts (2x 216, 1 x 235) 69 Impala
I have a 1952 235 out of a 1953 2 ton dump truck. I am starting to rebuild it and need a new cam. Just wondering if Hotrod Lincoln tested the melling ccs-1 cam and how it worked.
One other drawback to long-duration valve timing on the intake valves is the fact that you're effectively lowering the compression ratio. By holding the intake valve open partway up the compression stroke for better cylinder filling at high speed, the compression pressure doesn't start to rise until the valve closes. That's why cam grinders recommend "increased compression" with their more radical-grind cams. It's necessary to squeeze the remaining cylinder volume tighter after the valve closes just to get back to the same compression pressure a stock cam can provide.
The Melling cam is still in the box. I'm planning to turn the bearing journals on it down to 216 diameter and install it in a radically-modified 216 with a 235 rotating assembly, full-pressure oiling, aluminum pistons, and custom connecting rods that's still in the process of being assembled. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
