The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 54' Chevy Starting Issues, Not even a whir

Hi folks,

So I recently bought a 1954 Chevy 3600. Was told it was a daily driver, in the video it ran and drove. When I went to pick it up everyone was 'shocked' it didn't turn over like advertised. I put a jump pack on the battery and nothing happened. The owner put the pack directly on the starter and grounded it to the block and it fired right up.

I get the truck home and now i'm stumped. I've got good voltage from the battery. I've changed out the cables and cleaned up all the grounds. I tried jumping directly off the battery cables (battery removed) and nothing. Not even a rumble or gurgle, it just does nothing. I did manage to get it going once by hooking directly to the starter (that was the last time that worked). I took a voltage meter to the battery and the starter and i'm getting 6v to it. I've tried just pushing on the button under the hood and still nothing. I'm perplexed how I went from it running and able to jump off the starter, now to completely nothing.

I was hoping the grounds would be the easy answer but clearly not. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm new to this world and this is my first project truck.

Thanks in advance.


**Note in the picture I provided, i have since changed out the ground wire and cleaned up the connections. I'm happy to provide additional photos as requested.

Voltage isn't what matters with a starter. Amperage is. You can have a good solid 6V to the starter, and it still won't crank because there's not enough capacity to transfer energy to the starter. Starters require a ton of amperage. 6V systems require double the amperage of 12V systems and the amount of amperage will vary based on ambient temperature and the amount of friction in the engine that has to be overcome to turn it over.

The positive cable looks rather small for a 6V system. It should be at least 00 gauge. Furthermore, a poor connection on the ground side can affect the ability for current to pass through the system as well. Just because the braided cable is attached to the frame doesn't mean you have a good ground. You should sand the frame and the connector and clean up the bolts that mount the braided cable to the frame of the truck as well as the case of the starter. (If that's what you mean by "cleaned up all the grounds", then please don't take offense to my advice.) And don't forget the ground connection for the battery itself. That can often be the culprit.

Since the last two times that it started where when you "hooked directly to the starter", that's an indication that one of the connections isn't sufficient to turn the motor over.

Where does the ground cable from the battery connect? I second the suggestion to use heavier cables- - - -I make my own from #0 gauge welding cable. Make the battery ground cable long enough to connect to the engine block or one of the bell housing bolts- - - -not to the body or frame.
Jerry

Maybe it is not really a 6-volt system. My 54 came as a 12 volt, built late in 54 production cycle.

I'd also take the starter button assembly off the starter (2 screws) and check that you are getting a good connection. Over time the contacts inside the switch can deteriorate. That's what I found on my truck when it began intermittently having starting issues. I think it was like $14 for a new one.

Try having someone else hold the start pedal down and tap on the battery cable terminal of the starter with a small hammer. Don't pound on it, just give it a moderately firm tap. If the starter cranks the engine, replace the switch.
Jerry

Nice truck. Am I seeing "captain's bars" ? 261 engine ?

I agree with everyone here but would also check the crimp on your connections, if it's not truly tight your still not going to have a good connection. I have soldered the terminals to the cables a time or two. The wire gauge does seem a little small for 6v.

Battery cable tech article.
Speed Up 6 Volt Starting

Also clean-up/shine-up all your starter stranded cable and braided strap metal to metal contact points and apply NO-OX-ID A-Special Grease
Don't forget battery post.
Buy Here and Cheaper, > Even cheaper

If that is original blue paint, I would lean towards a '53 full pressure 235. They had one set of captain's bars on the passenger side only.

Nice truck.. I think u should sell it to me and I will tell u what I find. Then the next 1 u buy, you will know what to fix.... double what baldeagle said. Clean contacts are key...Dont overlook the simple things

Thanks for all the suggestions folks. I was told it was a 261 on purchase, but i'm happy to send along pics to those that can help me figure it out.

So far i have bought new ground wires, sanded down and cleaned up the points on the frame, engine, and battery.

I removed the starter motor, pulled it apart, cleaned it all up and did a bench test, and it fired right up. I added back the solenoid on top and again it fired up just fine. Put everything back into the truck hooked it up, and Nothing. No whir, no buzz, nothing. I even used the same battery source that i used for the bench test and hooked it direct once in the truck, and again, not a sound.

I'll likely take the battery in to see what shape its in, i'm also happy to upgrade the positive wire to the battery. I would've thought that even if underpowered it would still make at least some sound or attempt. I called the owner and he said that he used it daily as a feed truck and that it's current condition is how he's driven it for years. I can't help but think i'm missing a connection somewhere.

Currently it's connected to the frame. But im happy to run it with a heavier gauge up to the engine

As an additional update:

I took the battery in to be tested at an autoparts store and it came back as a good battery. After doing the testing below, I removed the starter push button solenoid on top of the starter motor exposing the contact. I ran jumpers direct from the battery to the contact, I got the faintest whir and then nothing. When it was tested in the garage/bench test it spun up to full speed. I'm wondering if the starter motor is just shot. Correct me if i'm wrong, but there are no inline fuses to be worrying about in the starting system, so I'm running out of ideas quickly.


Do this:

Turn the key off.

Put the red lead of your meter directly on the + post of the battery (not the battery cable).
Put the black lead of your meter directly on the - post of the battery (not the battery cable).

What is the voltage reading? Call it reading A. 6.34

Turn on the key.

What is the voltage reading? Call it reading B. 6.29

Turn on the headlight switch.

What is the voltage reading? Call it reading C. 6.16

Turn off the headlight switch.
Have some else mash the stomp starter.

What is the voltage reading? Call it reading D. 6.11

Turn the key off.

Put your the red lead meter back on the starter post and the black lead to a good ground.

What is the voltage reading? Call it reading E. 6.32

Turn on the key.

What is the voltage reading? Call it reading F. 6.26

Turn on the headlight switch.

What is the voltage reading? Call it reading G. 6.15

Turn off the headlight switch.
Have some else mash the stomp starter.
What is the voltage reading? Call it reading H. 6.29

Look at your last post. What you've shown is that the starter is not in the circuit. You're measuring the voltage at the starter post, and it's not changing at all. That solenoid has to be bad.

I have a rule when it comes to fixing things. Replace the cheapest parts first. Buy a new solenoid and install it. If that doesn't fix the problem, then get a new starter. Solenoids go bad a lot more than starter motors do.

That starter does not have a "solenoid". What are you working on that you're calling one? If you're referring to the push button on top of the starter, that's just a simple switch. The starter drive gear is engaged mechanically, not by solenoid action. try this- - - -super-glue a nickel or a flat washer on top of the switch button. It looks like the foot pedal linkage is not pushing the button down far enough to engage the contacts and make the starter motor turn.

If that trick makes the starter turn, then fix the worn spots on the pedal linkage- - - - -there are several places where holes can elongate or rod ends can wear undersize. There are no adjustments.
Jerry

Sorry for my mistake in terminology. I have a switch (from the foot starter). Apologies for the confusion. Jerry i'll try your idea today wit the flat washer. I did previously use a paint stirrer to bridge that gap, I've also pushed that button in manually as hard as I can to no avail.

Maybe someone here can help explain this to me, if in a bench test with the starter switch removed, direct battery to contact on the starter motor, and it spins up. Why would that not be replicated once installed in the truck? I used leads to hook up in almost the exact same way, except for grounding which I tried in multiple places, and it doesn't change anything. I did do a bench test with the starter switch in place too, and that also spun up when I compressed the button. I recognize i'm lacking the mechanical understanding here, but i'd have thought that in repeated scenarios (ie- same set up for power) and the only difference is it's bolted in the truck, that you'd get at least some semblance of the motor turning over.

I'm still concerned with where the battery ground cable is attached to the frame. If you've got a dirty or corroded connection there it will interrupt the circuit for the current to return to the battery and prevent the starter from flowing enough current to turn.

Let's do some Ohm's Law math. A 6 volt starter needs to flow around 200 amps to crank the engine properly. According to Ohm's Law, amperage equals voltage divided by resistance. If a headlight in a 6 volt circuit is flowing 10 amps, for instance, the total resistance of the circuit, power, to headlight switch, to the dimmer switch, to bulb, to body, to frame, and back to the battery is going to equal 6/10 of one ohm. That means the current negotiates at least 6 or 7 connections. Even one dirty or loose connection results in dim, or non-working headlights.

Now let's try the same math with 200 amps of current- - - - -6 volts divided by 200 = 0.03 Ohms!- - - -yes, that's 3/100 Ohms of TOTAL circuit resistance! One dirty connection totally disables the starter! Actually, since battery terminal voltage under starting load is usually less than 5 volts, the total circuit resistance is more like 0.025 ohms or less. That's darn near dead short conditions!
Jerry

There's a procedure I've been using (and teaching) for over 50 years called a "series resistance test" where a low-reading voltmeter (2 volts full scale) is used to check the voltage drop across every connection in a starting circuit. The process is a little too complicated to type, but if you'll get in touch by private message, I'll share a phone number for a 1-on-1 conversation. I learned the tricks of the trade about maintaining starting systems back in high school in the 1960's, when I was driving a 47 Mercury flathead V8 with 11:1 compression and a 6 volt starter!
Jerry

This might help..

1954 Chevrolet Truck Shop Manual
54 Starting Motor Parts Layout

Attached are some images from the 47-54 Factory Assembly Manual & wiring schematic.for trucks equipped with foot operated starter.

xfiles

I made sure to clean the grounds thoroughly . I took everything down to bare metal and I took a dremel/sandpaper to the connections themselves cleaning them up like new before putting it back together.

Tha
Thank you. Looking at these, i've got everything spot on.

This a long shot but when you took the starter apart did you check the brushes contacting point on the (commutator). Yellow (A) circle in photo.
The brush contacting point (commutator) should be shiny copper looking. If not, use 00 sand paper to shine-up commutator and clean out dirt in separators. Then check brushes (B 19) for wear, if brushes are touching brush holder replace brushes or buy new starter.

The only other thing is, does the engine crankshaft turn.

xfiles

The crankshaft does turn. I took the starter apart and everything looked good. I sent pics to a guy that rebuilds them and he saw nothing wrong.

Im going to see if i can chase down wiring issues. I did order a new/rebuilt starter from NAPA that should be in this week. Hopefully between all of those I'll get it working.

I did get a new/refurbished starter motor from Napa and installed it. Unfortunately I'm still having issues getting things going. I have included a youtube link below of various tests I ran.

I will say I backed the old starter motor off and the bendix spring was definitely not functioning correctly. When I backed it off I did a bench test and it did spin up like before, however I think the gear at the end had meshed with the flywheel and the whole motor was turning over including the fan (not trying to start, just mechanically moving). Which has lead me to believe the flywheel is ok as it did spin along with everything else just fine. I do think i must be facing a wiring issue here, i'm just not sure where else to look.

Is all the testing done using the new starter in the YouTube video?

Here one thing you could try, tighten starter mounting bolts, take the negative jumper cable and clip it to one of the end bolts of the starter.
Keep the positive cable on the starter switch nut. Now depress the switch button. See what happens.
If it spins, try the foot operated starter pedal. make sure tranny is in neutral and clutch pedal pushed in. See what happens.
If the above works there is something wrong with engine ground strap connections.

When testing with jumper cables what power source are you using?

When you loosen the mounting bolts and depress the switch button, the starter it spins.
Which makes me think that something might be binding when mounting bolts are tightened.

Did Napa say the starter was a 6 volt starter? (It looks like a 6 volt starter) but you never know for sure after rebuild.

Has this truck been converted to 12 volts? Post pictures of generator and regulator on firewall.

Try this, tighten starter mounting bolts, hook up cables like when truck was new, connect voltmeter to battery, put voltmeter on seat in cab .
Hop in truck and push foot operated starter pedal, at the same time look at the voltmeter and see what the voltage reads.
If the voltage drops close to nothing, the battery is no good.

If battery is good.
Try this, connect voltmeter to starter switch bolt and to one of the end bolts of the starter.
Now depress the switch button, what does the voltage read?
If the voltage drops close to nothing, there might be a cable, cable connection or a binding problem.

The engine cranks and the starter flops around when it's loose on the engine. That tells me there's a mechanical bind, not an electrical problem. I've suggested putting a couple of wheel alignment shims between the starter and the bellhousing, bolting things up tight, and trying to crank the engine. I believe the "no crank" condition is caused by something not fitting right, not necessarily an open circuit somewhere. If the battery voltage drops way down,. like 4 volts or less when attempting to crank a locked engine, that's not necessarily a bad battery- - - -just too much electrical load. Do the battery cables get hot to the touch after a cranking attempt?
Jerry

Check the copper ground strap at the engine side .I see you sanded the frame side but how about the truck engine side.

Finally diagnosed! Much thanks to you all and especially Jerry (Hotrod Lincoln) who went above and beyond.

Turned out to be a combination of a couple of things, bad grounds, and battery cables that weren't substantial enough for the 6v system.

I ended up getting 00 guage battery wires made from the local john deere. Positive runs from the battery to the starter motor. Negative runs from the battery direct to the bell housing of the starter motor. Once it was all set up, she fired right up. For such a simple system, I certainly ran myself around in circles. Thank you so much for everyones help and advice through all of this, I very much appreciate it. Im sure it won't be the last time im stumped and looking for help on the forum.

Now its off to enjoy it and get some gas! (Until i start pulling it apart)

That 60-something year old braided ground cable looks good, but I'm beginning to think it might have been part of the problem. Leave it there for eye candy, but add a heavy engine-to-frame ground somewhere else (maybe on the driver's side) just for good measure! That will also help with providing a good return path for current from the lights, instruments, and other low-current devices. A few 10 gauge wires from the frame to the bed, cab, and front end sheet metal will assure that the electrical path back to the battery doesn't get compromised.
Jerry