The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts '54 630 shorten frame 4'

I decided to remove the 16' bed from my 630 and put an 8' bed on it. Too hard to get out driveway without needing both lanes, don't need all that bed,either.

Ed

Big project Ed, looks good! Keep the pictures coming

Bill,
Thanks, that is about all the work, except for mounting the 8' bed with hydraulic AutoCrane. Going to direct mount the pump to the PTO rather than using a separate driveshaft.

I finally figured out how to post pictures, so I can show more progress.

Ed

Hi Ed,

whats up with the plate and overkill on bolts? aren't you welding it together or is this to make sure the construction doesn't torque while welding?

I welded it, then added doubler plates as per one of the authors in WOT, this is a 30,000 GVW truck, although I am not planning to load it that much.

Ed

I'm going to shorten the wheelbase of my C60 Viking, but am looking at moving the axle forward i.s.o. cutting the frame.
any thoughts on that?

The fishplate and flange bolts will hold more than the weld, but there is nothing wrong with overkill. On trucks that we modify to use daily, we put a crossmember at the splice splice, but for occasionally using a truck it isn't necessary and it looks like the cab mount crossmember and the front suspension cross member are pretty close together anyway. Do you have a magnetic drill, or did you have to drill them the hard way?

Ken,

I did the first side by hand, however I borrowed a mag. drill for the second side, drill bit grabbing, even with several sizes led to that choice. Hard on wrist first side, although weight on mag. drill was a negative. It would be best as a two man job.

Ed

I removed the bed from the yellow donor truck, supported by factory stabilizing legs and piece of water pipe on barrels, backed shortened 630 underneath and bolted everything up.

Unfortunately left crane in awkward position, cannot move until hydraulics hooked up.

Ed

Thanks for sharing pics,I want to shorten my truck soon

I'm with Steve. Is this approach better than moving the axle forward and chopping off the back? Something similar is also in my future and I'd like to do it right.

Spartan

Getting the axle(s) and springs aligned properly after moving them forward can be a royal pain in the posterior and a truck with the rear end trying to pass the front end all the time is a chore to drive. I'd much rather cut a chunk out of the middle than try to accurately reposition a bunch of spring hangers!
Jerry

Spartan and Steve, If your frame is straight (not tapered) The theory of moving spring hangers forward is not much different than shortening the frame. (have done that on a couple of different rigs) You do have to punch the rivets out of the spring hangers (possibly making the holes egg shaped) and then re-rivet them back in their new spot (ensuring your new holes are exactly the same measurement forward fro the old ones on both sides). The work to punch out rivets and get them back in the right place as solidly as the factory had them is not something most of us have the right tools to do.

It is usually a lot easier to take a section out of the straight part of the frame (or add a section to lengthen) than to mess with the rivets and spring hangers.

The main thing is to measure, measure, measure, cut, measure, measure some more, think, measure. mock up in new config, measure....

you get it, if it is in the right place when done, you are good.

Steve-w, Mike, HRL and others,

I agree that knocking out and re-riveting and getting averything lined up again is a whole lot more work than removing a piece from the middle of the frame. The welding is relatively easy, although I got a professional welder to do the upside down welding.

One can add additional strength by bending a couple of frame thick pieces to fit in the corners, if the frame is of two different thickneses, then regular angle iron can be used.

I found some grade 8 flange bolts at McMaster-Carr that were quite reasonable.

I found a hand held cut-off wheel to be much more accurate than my plasma cutter.


Just measure carefully, get everything square.

Ed

Thanks for that insight gents.

If I go the route of moving hangars must I use rivets? Why couldn't I simply use bolts instead? Maybe that's a dumb question.

I'm pretty confident I can get the holes placed correctly. I do a lot of precision machine work and I'd just make a jig. I won't be cutting more than 2 feet.

Spartan

If the frame is same cross section where the hangers were and where you want them then moving them up is pretty easy, and a good idea.
That said if you have crossmembers at your spring hangers (I bet you do) then they need to move along with the spring hangers.

Some times crossmembers are all the same and moving the hangers is even easier, crossmembers are already waiting.

Some trucks the frame tapers between the rear forward and rear most spring hangers, them moving them is problematic and cutting the frame and shortening in a straight section is the way to go.

Rivets are used because when setting them, they fill the hole entirely, which bolts do not do. Some have used hot rivets heated by their torch, don't know how efficient that would be?

Ed

There are specialty bolts intended for assembling truck frames and other purposes where a precision fit is required. Regular bolts- - - -no way. The resulting assembly will be sloppy loose, and it will be impossible to keep the truck tracking in a straight line going down the road.
Jerry

Thanks Jerry,

Do these specialty bolts have a name?

Also back to rivets. How were they assembled in the plant back then. Were they undersized and installed hot and crushed to fit? Or were they over sized and soaked in LN2 prior to install?.

Spartan

Rivets at the factory were installed cold and just squeezed a lot.

Setting 3/8" or larger rivets cold is not really possible in a normal repair shop, but setting them hot is very achievable, thus recommended in the shop/repair manuals.

Those special bolts have the drive end that breaks off when they are tight, leaving the threaded 'n' nut holding with no way to back off or remove. Don't know the name, plentiful on new big trucks.

Ed

There are quite a few different types of those breakaway bolts.
One style - Avdelok® Lockbolts have a special nut and an extension that breaks off after torquing.
Then there's Tork-Bolts, which are like Ed was describing. They have a double head with the hex part that breaks off at the prescribed torque, leaving a rounded head that looks like a rivet. But the nuts are standard type, so could theoretically be removed if the head can be prevented from spinning.
Then there are shear bolts, like are used at the base of highway signs, that shear off when struck, allowing the signpost to release and not cause a bunch of damage to a vehicle hitting it. Those wouldn't be appropriate for bolting a crossmember to a frame though.

I would think that standard grade 8 bolts would work fine, if attention was paid to getting the hole diameter very close to the bolt diameter. The preferable method to do that would be to drill the holes undersized then clamp the crossmember in place and ream the holes in both the frame and crossmember to the correct diameter. Then tighten the pi$$ out of the bolts.

Huck bolts are modern replacement for frame rivets, used in new truck frame construction.

Looks like Huck bolts are another brand of Avdelok® Lockbolts. Looks very similar.

If a rivet is "bucked" properly, it expands to completely fill the hole it's inserted into with ZERO clearance. That's why airplanes are assembled with rivets, not 1/8" machine screws and nuts. The riveted parts become as close as practically possible to being a solid piece of metal with no movement between individual pieces. Ditto for truck frame components. Huck bolts in reamed holes probably come a close second to a factory rivet job.
Jerry

Just a picky thing about terminology. You should have used "set" rather than "bucked". Bucking is the act of backing up the sheet metal with a big chunk of iron so the rivet set can be hammered on to expand the rivet. I'm sure you know what a rivet set is, Jerry, but for the younger guys, it's a punch that has a hole the size of the rivet shank, another that's typically dome shaped to form the rivet head. The first hole is used to drive the two pieces of metal together after first upsetting the rivet slightly with the head forming hole to expand it. Then the shaped hole to finish expanding and setting the rivet. I learned how to do that from my dad when I was about 8 years old.

Bucking was the terminology we used at Aero Commander building airplanes in 1965. I spent many an hour laying on my back wedged up in the tail bucking rivets. If I let the bucking bar slip and cause a nick in the face the rivet had to be drilled out and everything redone. The inspector was ruthless.

Yep- - - - -I did the same thing at AVCO Aerospace in Nashville Tennessee, also in 1965. We were building C-130 tail sections, Huey Cobra segments, and trying to press-form the leading edges of the then-new Grumman Gulfstream wings we had the contract to produce. I was on the R&D team working the bugs out of the process of stretching a 10-foot section of 1/8" thick aluminum over a die with a 1200-ton hydraulic press.
Jerry

The guy holding the bucking bar on the back side of the rivet was like the guy holding the dumb end of the tape measure. You guys were obviously on the other end operating the rivet gun and bit or pneumatic setting tool when you were "bucking" all those rivets.
The HVAC sheet metal work my dad did was a bit more forgiving. Aerodynamics played a smaller part.

Seems there was a thread on here once about installing those rivets, but I tried searching last night and couldn't find it.

Not here on the Stovebolt, but HERE

We did have a thread about setting hot rivets. There was some disagreement about methods...
Read here and make up your own mind.
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/920635/1.html
The earlier link/method was a result of this Stovebolt thread, but without listening to the advice offered.

I didn't realize that thread existed. Interesting read. Seems that Deve got the job done though.

Not to start that all over again, but that’s debatable.
It’s very difficult to swell a rivet in a hole if only heating one end of it (already in the hole) It’ll look OK from the outside but likely not a good tight riveting job.
On the other hand if you heat the entire rivet, then put it in the hole and quickly set it chances are good it both looks good and, more importantly, fits good.

Typical of that website- - - - -misinformation, presented in a very convincing manner, which can get a newbie into serious trouble. There's a lot of tall buildings from the early 1900's with structural steel skeletons that were assembled with properly done hot rivets that are still standing strong. The whole rivet was heated cherry red, then tossed to the assembly team. Repeat as required, thousands of times!
Jerry

Agreed. A properly done rivet is heated, inserted in the hole and set. Once the head is formed, as it cools the shrinking shank tightens up the fit between the two pieces clamping them together. Heating in place has the effect you mentioned of not being able to upset the back side of the shank, as well as heating the surrounding metal, which then cools and shrinks along with the rivet, reducing the clamping force as well.
Deve's method maybe falls in the category of "adequate" and definitely not "best".

@Eddpruss,
As interesting it is to read about rivets, bucking and C-130 Tailends.. how's the project coming along?

Interesting project. I first read that you were shortening it by 4 INCHES... and thought that you would not really be gaining much by cutting out such a small piece.

Thanks, I finished it last winter, px may be older than discussion.

Ed