The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline TF Steering issue help

Having trouble figuring out the steering issue on a 56 straight axle. During the rebuild I originally kept the manual steering setup. Had the suspension looked over and everything checked out nice and tight. I had an alignment done and they added some shims to correct the wandering at highway speeds. It corrected some of the wandering but never seemed to be stable coming out of a corner.

Figuring the gearbox might be worn out causing the steering to be loose; and the fact that I was giving the truck to my 70 year old dad, I decided to add CPP Power Steering instead. The power steering install went fine, but the same symptom still exists as when it had manual steering. So now I know it was NOT the gearbox.

Here is what is happening: In town the truck turns and handles perfect. It tracks straight and doesn't seep loose or wobbly. On the highway, the truck tracks straight, but the problem comes in the corners. When turning out of a corner, the steering seems slow to react when turning the steering wheel. This causes the driver to turn the steering even more, only for it to suddenly over react and quickly turn out of the corner. This usual requires a correction in the other direction to get it tracking straight again. So every corner requires extra concentration and corrections.

It is too much for my dad is scared to drive it on the highway.....not good!
Please help!

Is this a 1/2 ton truck?

Is the cornering the same before and after the alignment?

Who did the alignment, an auto or truck garage?

Did they give you a report of how they set it up (toe-in, caster and camber)? What are those numbers?

What size and type tires are you running?

What's the condition of the spring shackles and pins?

Answers to these questions may help us figure it out...

Mike B

Did not get a chance to drive at highway speeds before the alignment. But helped wandering going straight.

The alignment was done at garage that specialized in big trucks and tractors. Older guy that knew about shims and straight axes.

Here are the results of the alignment; Camber: L=.6, R=.6, Caster: L=1.1, R=1.2, Toe: L=.18, R=.21, Total Toe=.39, Steer Ahead=-.02.

NEW: Radial 225/70/15 Tires on stock rims.

Was told that the shackles and pins were in good shape, but some components (tie rod ends were seized and needed to be freed up...but working fine after the alignment. I do wonder if the pins were just "seized" and looked tight, but maybe somehow now have movement....but not even sure if that could happen as I really am a noobie when it comes to suspension.

Thanks for your time.

A quick and simple test you can do, have your dad or any helper, turn the wheel left and right just a short amount while you watch the drag link and tie-rod ends. If the tires do not move when the linkage does, you have found your problem.

Thanks Joe. I tried that, but did not notice any loose steering components.

Could be tires or something too tight or sticking. Your description of the problem needs more detail. It seems you are saying that the steering wheel does not return very easily back to straight after a turn? Does it do exactly the same left and right turns? Slow to react? Like what do you mean? Steering wheel turns 180 deg and wheels don't turn? Then is sticks and truck stays in the turn when you let wheel slip thru your hands?
Put front up on jack stands and see if turning steering wheel is in sync with wheels turning. Is there some kind of "lag" between the rotation of steering wheel and front wheels turning? This is a visual test to detect a lag. Since you say no loose linkage observed, you need to observe any loss of movement between steering wheel rotation and wheels rotating. More testing and more observation needed.

Could be sort of a bump steer effect. The history of this is important to know from your Dad. Years? Months? just started recently?
Are we sure this is not a steering column bearing issue? or a king pin issue? Any noises associated with this problem?

No matter what we say or think, the bottom line is you will have to take it to a different shop. Don't go on and on about what was already done until they tell you what they think is wrong. Don't allow any work done until they tell you.

You still did not answer 1/2T?
EVERY TIME you start a post on Stovebolt you must state year, make, model, etc.

Seems like excessive toe in to me. Especially with radial tires. Excessive toe in and not enough caster can cause your problem.

My bet is not enough castor. That CPP setup needs more castor than the stock setup. You need to check every moving part of the front end (and the rear end for that matter) before you add castor shims.
It concerns me that you are using tie rod ends which were seized up. Get off some money and replace your spring shackles front and back, and tie rod ends. Inspect your wheel bearings and torque the spindle nuts to specs.
Is your new CPP drag link parallel to the ground?
What year/make power steering box did you go with?

This was a recent birthday gift for my dad that I restored last year so I have no history of how it used to handle, only the way it feels now.

There is no noise, vibration, or weird bump feedback when driving. I have upgraded to tapered bearings and torqued properly. I do agree that I need to upgrade tie rods....that was going to be this year's project. Don't know about condition of spring shackles. In which manor could the shackles affect the handling? Drag link is parallel to the ground.

When you turn the wheel in a corner it does turn and react, it just feels that you have to make a slow sweeping turn and that if you turn too sharp it comes back too quick in opposite direction, causing the driver to over-correct the turn; sometimes in the middle of a turn. Making it feel unstable in a corner.

I do believe that the caster needs to be increased as it does feel like it struggles to return to center. I will be taking it another shop to check over all components before making any major changes. Since the truck is with my dad....I am just trying to get some ideas before he takes it in.

Every component has the potential to introduce “slop” into the steering and suspension thus creating issues with handling. If your original alignment shop was familiar with these old straight axles and was a reputable place then surely they checked “all” the parts and pieces for excessive wear. That being said I believe I would take it to another shop and have them do the inspection while you watch and explain to them what issues you are having. Good luck.👍🏻

Here is a mother quick check. Park on level ground, smooth concrete floor with slick cardboard or milk cartons under the front tires. Turn full left and right. Does the front end rise up in each direction? This is a caster check. It should rise but not a terrible lot. To much caster can cause it to return to quickly and possibly the opposite direction. By shifting the angle of the front axle, the spindles have to lift the truck each direction. The weight they lift is what causes the steering to return to center. You want enough caster for a smooth return, but not so much you have to lift the truck in each turn. This is most noticeable at slow speeds in sharp corners. You will also notice to little caster at highway speeds, the truck will be jittery and not want to follow a straight line, you will always be correcting it. Again, it's the weight on the spindles that holds them straight.

Picture the axle hanging by the spindles exactly level. If you turn the spindles, they move in a level arc, even with the center line of the axle . Now rotate the axle 45* clockwise, they still move in the same arc, but rise above and below the axle center line. You just added caster angle.

We can assume you have adjusted the steering box and greased it?

Joe

Thanks for the tips. Steering box is anew cpp 400 power steering unit. Handled the same with manual and power steering box.

I see you understand the suggestions and are attempting to take it to a shop along with including Father. Glad you got the truck.

I have a 55-59 GMC maintenance manual. In reading the Camber, Caster and Toe in section, Caster is the probable cause of your issue. Camber and Toe-in are related to each other. The exact issue is mentioned caused by Caster. It also says to be sure wheel bearings are properly adjusted before alignment procedures.
Issues mentioned: Worn King pins, steering knuckle bushings, bent steering knuckle or bent axle center. Also: sagging springs, uneven tightening of spring Ubolts. This is all straight out of the manual. Get a Chevy maintenance manual and read and give a copy of the alignment section to the shop.....or use it as a tool to listen and question the tech. Go over each item.

Many shops require all that stuff to be fixed before they will align. That may or may not be a money grab. It seems prudent to me. Other shops don't care, that may or may not be a money grab. They get the alignment fee, then you come back and they get the fee for replacing everything and another alignment fee. This is a either a paranoid way of looking at it or a real life way. Depends. This is why so many of us are DIY'ers. But we can't do everything so we find an honest shop. You can do all of the front end parts replacement if you have the tools and study (maintenance manual). Most of the tools are free rent at FLAPS and the parts are all available. IMO The hardest part would be the king pins. All the instructions and pictures are in the manual.

The result numbers you gave for alignment are hard to check per my manual. The camber can be given in degrees or inches, if it's inches it is wrong, if degrees seems OK (MM= 1 deg +/- 30'). If the caster is in degrees it seems OK (MM=1 deg +/- 30'). The Toe-in seems incorrect, one is at max, other is over max (MM= 1/16-3/16) 3/16= .187. Maybe total Toe-in is the savior. I don't see why total would mean anything? Spec is per wheel.

Its not rocket science. The toe-in is wrong, caster barely in spec. Toe needs to be on the minimum 1/16". You can fix the toe-in in your driveway, then test drive. If you still have the problem, have the alignment shop put in a little more caster. The specs are for a manual steering truck with bias tires that probably would not see more than 50-60 miles per hour and mostly dirt roads. Now you need more caster with higher speeds and power steering.

59 fleet, check your PM’s.

I believe it is likely the tie rod ball studs are worn since you had the same problem before upgrading to PS. It's been my experience that the original type do not work well with power steering. The improved tie rod with the newer type tie rod ends are available from a number of aftermarket sources such as Brothers, Truck Shop, CPP, and others. Also the 400 series (Toyota) steering box operates with about 900 psi while the standard GM pump delivers about 1300 psi. If the pump pressure is too high it has the potential to cause the problems you are experiencing. Kits to reduce the pressure are also available through aftermarket sources.
Fred

Never even though about the Tie rod ends as the Mechanic said everything was tight; but I notice that CPP recommends their tie rod ends when installing their kit. Do you know if they are a direct bolt in DYI project?

I know that the Toyota box operates at 900, but I thought this kit was designed to use with a GM pump. I am currently using a GM pump, so I will have to check that out.

Yes, cansled, the CPP kit is a simple diy kit. Grind off the swage, on arms, and drill into studs to relieve pressure. Then drive out ball studs with hammer and punch. New 1in tie rod and tight ends really does the job, tightening up the steering!

Thanks for the pics. Just talked to CPP and the CPP5559PSK-OC kit I put on is built for the GM Pump so no problem there.

If you bought the pump from CPP and it has not been specifically modified internally to reduce the pressure they are giving you a BS story.
I would have them show me something in the specs that it has been modified. If you purchased the pump from another source, it has the control valve designed for GM applications which operate at 1300psi.
A steering box is designed for 900 psi is not going to operate correctly with too much (or too little) pressure.
Fred

I purchased a kit that includes a new BOX, not a new pump. I am using a used GM style pump. The CPP5559PSK-OC is a new kit that comes with a steering BOX designed by CPP to their specifications. It is not a Toyota box. It fits in the factory location and was designed to require a GM Saginaw style pump. The sales team and the tech team both confirmed this.

OK, best of luck. CPP does not design or build anything. They simply sell parts and kits manufactured by others. This box is an aftermarket replacement copied from a 84-87 Toyota 4x4. I can buy this unit from numerous suppliers in this area and none of them are from CPP. I have installed 5 of them so If you don't wish to heed the advice, that's well & good.
Fred

Advise given, time to move on guys.🛠

Cansled, as Martin said, I don't have any new advice - but just so you know you're not alone - my 1997 Suburban does the same thing. Yep, 1997. And I've had $2500 worth of work to the front end, but of course that didn't replace "everything". Just have to find a better shop I guess! Good luck.

Sounds to me the king pins could be binding.

George