The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Improving warm engine starting without 12 volt upgrade

I would like to improve warm engine starting on my 46 Chevy. Has been an issue ever since I bought the truck 46 years ago, I was 15 at the time. Parking on a hill, using beer buddies to push or even using the crank were neat at the time but over the years those novelties have faded. The 216 is well tuned and runs like a sewing machine, just needs to spin faster or something for reliable starting when the engine is warm. I just can't bring myself to do the 12 volt upgrade.

How about a duel 6-volt battery setup?
You'll have to figure out where to mount the second battery though.
My dad did that on a 54 Plymouth years ago and the second battery was mounted on the firewall.
Really did emprove winter starts.

BTW, I still have that 54.
Don

Make sure EVERY ground strap is clean and in good condition. Bare metal to bare metal. Battery cables should be 00 gauge if possible. Folks have had good luck with Optima batteries after making sure ALL cables are corrosion free.🛠

Before giving up on your 6v system, read Martin's post a few times.

- 00 gauge cable is best, but 2 gauge cable was original equipment (I use 00 gauge)
- every cable/strap should have clean ends
- every place that a cable/strap attaches should be clean metal
- coat all shiny metal contact points with a copper-impregnated anti-oxidant grease

If your cables are old and show corrosion, they could be bad inside the sheathing/covering.

If you want "overkill" do not go to 12v, run the battery positive cable to the hot-lead-connector on the starter, and run the battery negative cable to a clean/shiny/coppered mounting stud/bolt on the starter.

Ditto on the big cables and clean connections! My first project car back in the early 1960's was a 47 Mercury with a bunch of Dad's leftover dirt track racing parts on it including a set of Offenhauser finned aluminum cylinder heads. With the bore and stroke I chose, I had 11.25:1 compression. Making that thing start on 6 volts was a challenge. In addition to big battery cables and clean connections, be absolutely sure to keep it tuned well- - - -clean spark plugs, good points, correct dwell and timing, and good plug wires. Heavier than original wires in the primary ignition circuit from the battery cable at the starter, to the ammeter, ignition switch, and coil might also be a good idea. The coil needs to have a low-resistance voltage supply as well as the starter, because the load of the starter is going to drop the voltage available at the coil. You might also consider using a 12 volt starter switch, the one that has the side terminal on it, and bypass the long circuit I just described during starting with a piece of #12 wire directly from the starter switch to the coil + terminal. That would assure you're getting maximum voltage to the coil during cranking.
Jerry

One thing I learned about warm engine start on my 52 one half ton 216 with the Rochester B is: do not touch the accelerator. With the 6 volt it spins enough to start right up.

I know that the gurus above have a lot of experience with 216 motors. I don't. I do know about motors in general. But answers can't begin without asking some questions.

1. What do you mean? You want to "improve warm starting", what does it do or not do?
2. Does it barely turn over/too slow to start a motor? Does it turn over quite a bit slower when hot or about the same? If it's way slower it's not a fuel problem.
3. Does it puff and die?
4. Does it run down the battery?
5. Does it do it after 10 minutes or an hours drive?
6. How long does it take to "cool" and act normal? What is normal?
7. How fast does it start in the morning?
8. How long does it crank before starting when "hot".
9. Do you know how hot it gets? Gauge? Would a better radiator help?
10. How many rebuilds in 46 years and who did them? Any rewiring? Starter swap outs? Carb rebuilds?


There are a bunch of reasons for this problem.
Here are some:

1. Electrical cable size as said. Maybe some folks buy a 12V size cable for a 6V system or a aftermarket harness may not be sized for 6V. Not sure. Anyway the heat creates a voltage drop in wires/cables/switches/coils/ignition parts/THE STARTER. Too much resistance, so proper wires and components are required. Shielding the starter may help A LOT. Don't know that grounds break down with heat. I don't think a tight mechanical ground will cause problems when hot.
2. Heat soak in carb or lines.
3. Some moving parts can get tighter inside motor.
4. The battery can get hot and evap fluid and break down. I assume you have had this issue with old and new batteries.
5. The issue can be fuel, electrical, mechanical or all. This takes testing. Like: voltage drop testing hot vs cold. Battery testing hot vs cold.
6. I would have gone to 12V a long time ago. Like 46 years ago. It strikes me that if it really has done this for 46 years it will take another motor of a different era to correct. Don't know if this is a truck or a car but it was designed to start when "hot", even in freezing cold Canada. If all the wires and cables are at least original size, and they are not adequate, then all 1946 trucks have this problem? Especially in boiling hot Arizona?
7. It would be beneficial to know the actions of the motor and answers to the above questions...... and any other info/clues you can think of.
8. CarbKing speaks of modern fuel volatility but you say done this for 46 years.

"HARD STARTING, HOT

Difficult starting of a hot vehicle from 5 minutes to an hour after the engine has been operated, can be caused by the volatility of modern fuel. If you have this problem; try using the following method to start the engine: DON�T touch the footfeed (VERY important). Crank the engine over from three to 5 seconds (different vehicles will respond to different times); and then GENTLY (so as not to activate the accelerator pump) press the footfeed approximately 1/3 of its travel. The engine should start, and may run rough. Run the engine at a high idle for about 10 seconds. This issue is caused by volatility of modern fuel. Once the engine has been shut off, the gasoline is heated by the latent heat of the engine, and percolates the fuel from the bowl into the throttle area, forming a mixture that is too rich to fire. If you push the footfeed to the floor (as has been the traditional method of �unloading� a flooded engine) the gasoline continues to flow into the engine (again due to the volatility). By not touching the footfeed, you do not open the throttle plates, and the engine will pump the overrich mixture out of the tailpipe. Once the overrich mixture has been alleviated, gently opening the throttle will allow the engine to start" (CarbKing)

Many motors will start after hot with pedal gently put to floor and held there until it starts. I suppose you have tried all this in 46 years.

Papas52 has also given a third thing to try.

There are lots of other "no start" issues like build up of vacuum in tank but those don't apply to "doing it for 46 years" because parts have been changed many times usually....... and also don't apply to cold good/hot bad.

Engine starts fine when cold but not warm?

What's the cranking speed like compared to a cold start? Slow cranking reduces the starter speed, which causes it to draw enough current to starve the ignition coil. The slower a starter armature turns, the more current it draws due to lack of something called "Counter EMF" which is generated in its windings when it spins in the magnetism developed by the field coils. If the starter can't spin fast enough for some reason, it draws so much current there's none left to power the ignition system. One dead giveaway that starter speed is the problem is the tendency of an engine to start, or at least fire a couple of times just as the starter pedal is released.
Jerry

Or if it starts fine on a hill w/o the starter v/s using using the starter.

Ed

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. Some questions were posed so I'll answer those. As far as unknown mods over 46 years, not a concern as only my fingers have been under the hood in the past 46 years. The engine is sound and strong. As for trying to fiddle with the throttle while cranking thats pretty much impossible as I only have one right foot. When cold it starts fine and spins over at a typical 6 volt rpm. When warm it spins slower and if it doesn't fire its easy to quickly run down the battery, but when you get to the point that it it has no turn left a 15 foot push or hill rolldown, pop the clutch in 2nd and it fires immediately. It just needs to spin over quicker for 3-4 turns.
As for the other things like temp or gen gauges, they all work fine. Charging rate is within specs for a generator, although I wish it was more. All I need (and have needed for 46 years) is reliable cranking speed when the engine is warm. I will first attack by getting an Optima battery and new super gauge cables, who knows maybe thats all it needs and I can start parking at the bottom of a hill?

While waiting on the battery and cables, pull the starter apart for a good cleaning and brush check. Fresh brushes on a clean armature will help, and clean or replace the solenoid contractor plate.

Hmm..a weak coil? I had that issue on my 54 many years ago when it was still 6 volt..also have run into that same problem with 12 volt. One more thing to check. It's easy to swap out coils.

"All I need (and have needed for 46 years) is reliable cranking speed when the engine is warm. I will first attack by getting an Optima battery and new super gauge cables, who knows maybe thats all it needs and I can start parking at the bottom of a hill?"

The Optima 6v battery is excellent.
It holds a charge a long time, but keep it charged up.

Get a 6v automatic battery tender (~$30), if you want "insurance/assurance" of a full charge.

If the Optima unit goes/drains to dead, follow the charging procedure shown on the Optima website. The re-charge-from-dead process is completely different from wet-cell lead-acid batteries. People who report poor service (short life) from Optima batteries most likely ran them to dead but did not know how to recharge them. Many battery dealers/sellers and repair shops do not know about the simple and safe charging procedure (and, they bad-mouth Optima 6v batteries).

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/support/charging/resuscitate-deeply-discharged-battery

Ha ha, this all started last week when I posted looking for advice on installing a new coil into my existing electrolock (?) system (thats the original flex cable shielding from the ignition switch to a cap over the coil). When I got that figured out I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread about warm starting issues in general.

First post: "I just can't bring myself to do the 12 volt upgrade."

You do not have to.

I respect Tim's and other ideas. Your truck must be done as you wish. You are on the right track now.

These are my suggestions/thoughts. We are committed to a diverse forum.


Seems like a band aid to get a "better" battery for a little ol' 216. It sounds like a component breakdown which pulls the battery down. I.E. cables, connections, wires and weak starter. As I said, I would have gone to 12V along time ago. Does not change any perceptible originality. Sure would turn over faster at all times....and get this, your 46 year old problem would be solved. All cables will have less heat/less drop. All cheaper than getting an Optima which will still only have 6V to give. More reserve cost more money in any battery. Reserve (on a 12V Batt) is how long it operates before falling below 10.5V......... In this case, still plenty reserve to operate a 6V starter. Again, it will solve your issue especially with the good running, quick starting motor you have.

The questions were not about how good the motor was or your ability to fiddle. They were to be able to analyze the condition. As was the pedal position tests which are easy to do. Truck in neutral, foot on pedal, board on foot start if you wish. These tests were no different than a normal start. That's moot now, your issue is probably not fuel.

Your starter may be beginning to fail. A week starter will show itself when heat soaked. You can take it to a local starter/alternator rebuilder and have it checked out and serviced.
If it starts fine when you push start it, your coil should be fine.

Start by monitoring the battery terminal voltage during cranking - - - -hot and cold. Measure the voltage at the battery posts- - - -not the cable clamps. Then do the same test at the starter, checking voltage at the stud where the battery cable attaches and the battery ground post, also during hot and cold cranking. The voltage at both places should be the same, within less than 1/4 volt. It should not vary much from hot to cold. If any unusual readings are recorded, drop me a PM and I'll give you exact directions on how to do a "series resistance test" where the voltage drop at every connection, hot and ground, is monitored and recorded. Before you start shotgunning parts at a problem, it's essential that accurate voltage readings are taken and written down. It shows you where to look for problems.
Jerry

52carl..my problem with regards to the coil is how you described ..starts fine when pushed...the exception being it was the coil. I had stopped to get gas, driven about 150 miles..so was good and hot. Would not start with starter, but started with a push. Last time it had done that to me (prior to this ocassion) it stalled on a while turning around and I couldn't push it. Checked spark very weak,points good,condenser good. Coil very hot...a quick run over the side of the road to the river to get some water to pour over the coil, Cooled down to get it started. Didn't have a problem again till I stopped for gas a couple months later. I didn't shut the engine off till I got to where I was going.it wouldn't restart. So a new coil went in and ran for many years after. I am not disagreeing with you as more often than not...there are other issues to create warm eng no starts.but there is always one more possibility...

I guess the assumption here is that it is turning over too slowly to start, when it is warm. We haven't heard a sound clip so maybe the speed isn't the problem. I have found that if the carburetor allows gas to trickle into the intake while the engine is warm and not running, it becomes much harder to start. My method of working around this problem is to hold the throttle wide open for a minute or two and then without letting up on the gas, hit the starter. The best solution is to correct the carburetor problem.

It seems to make sense that if it starts right up with a push, or down hill roll, it is not fuel. It seems to indicate battery or starter. If it was fuel, it would not start when rolled. This is going by what the poster has said. So several members are focusing on fixing that area. The poster has yet to report on improvement with new stuff. I never got any answers to my questions to find out if there have been 100 starters put on in 46 years or none....and other answers that could solve a 46 year old continual problem. I do not understand that long of an issue with a 216, so I tried to understand the history of the components and replacements. I.E. harness, cables, starter, batteries, grounds, rebuilds and other recent or past history. This is the only person I've heard of with a 46 year "no hot start" 216 without it being solved along the way.

Guess I should apologize for being such an enigma. Even though I've had a hot start problem for 46 year and its still there today, I really don't stay awake at night worrying about it. I've received some useful suggestions through this forum which I truly appreciate. If anyone is patiently waiting for my progress report I should have an update ready by maybe June, but right now the old girl is up on one of my lifts enjoying a warm winter nap and I don't wish to disturb her when its 40 below outside.
To keep you all in suspense till spring, all I can say is that the truck has never been modified since I've owned it so all mechanical and electrical components are what she was born with. I rebuilt the engine 40 years ago, probably put 1500 long miles on her since. I think I may have pulled the starter to inspect somewhere in the late 70's, change a few batteries along the way, but that's about it. It was my high school wheels from 1973-75 and retired after that. It was my wedding car 32 years ago and my son's wedding car last year. On his wedding day he had to drive about 7 miles to the church, stopped to have his picture taken, and I forgot to tell him don't shut if off. The best men pushed him 10 feet and he was at the church on time. Actually, she's a lot like my wife.....predictable but still reliable.

Stan, you’ve heard all the suggestions. Whether you choose to follow any of them is your decision. Since the truck is in storage until the thaw we will all wait patiently for your update. It won’t be easy because we’re all a bit controlling and when we don’t get immediate gratification we get a bit testy. Don’t forget us we are waiting.🛠

I can only inject one item: run a current test on the starter cable, both hot and cold conditions. normally the
cold test should be a higher amp draw. If the hot test is higher and the cranking speed is less, check your
starter for wear or possible shorted armature/field coils. My 78 drove me nuts with a hot start problem which
was a defective armature.

respectfully, 59shortfleet

I had a starter where the bushing in the nose was worn do the shaft was off center, new bushing solved the problem, not the case here, though, do the current test.

Ed