The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop initial start problems

Today I decided it was time to start my rebuilt 1960 235 for the first time. Ran the oil pump with my electric drill, re-installed the distributor, set the timing, put some gas in the carb bowl, dropped a temporary gas line into a can of gas, hit the starter.
It did not start, but I think it fired some, got some puffs of smoke out of the exhaust.
Rechecked the timing, point gap, tried again, still no start
I'm wondering if I could have a problem with valve adjustment. It's got hydraulic lifters, and they seem to be pumped up.
Or is it possible I have the timing off 180? I don't know enough to diagnose this, wondering if anyone can help me out with suggestions.
I am afraid to crank this too much, worry about messing up cam shaft!

Tim

Other than making a little noise, it won't hurt the lifters to back off the adjustment 1/2 turn or so to be sure the valves are seating properly. Ignition timing is easy- - - -get the #6 cylinder valves "rocking" (exhaust closing and intake opening), and time the spark to fire the #1 cylinder. With the BB/pointer aligned and the #6 valves rocking, turn the distributor housing clockwise until the points close, and back up CCW until they just barely open. You'll be timed close enough to start and do a 20-minute cam run-in. Have a big fan or a squirrel cage blower handy to aim at the radiator- - - -the fan probably won't pull enough air by itself.
Jerry

Crazy question: did you have the choke on or off? My 216 requires me to have the choke pulled during initial start up and then once she starts firing, open it up to half way. By closing the choke, it will pull the fuel in easier since it is a low compression engine.

Not sure, but you may also need to prime the line or crank it a while longer so it starts to pull fuel. I learned from home coming that you can take a portable pesticide sprayer full of fuel, put a rubber hose on it and after a few pumps to prime the line us that for initial start up. It worked good, I just wouldn't leave it connected for any length of time.

I am sure you will get a ton of responses to your questions. Start with the simple stuff.
1. do you have spark?
2. do you have fuel?
3. if you have both, check your timing and possible choke. (you may need to adjust your timing one way or the other slightly)

Just my 2 cents, but this is what the guys did to mine to get it started the first time. My guess is that it is something simple and may not be as complicated as you think.

Chris

PS Jerry will not steer you wrong!

I do have the choke engaged (manual choke), and I think I should have fuel. It may have flooded when I poured gas into the bowl vent tube, it's hard to hit that little hole.
I'm going to go out and check the valve adjustment again and re-check the timing. Then give it another shot.
At least it's turning over well. And I have good oil pressure.


Tim

I use the nozzle for a rear end lube container on a 1 Qt. oil bottle for priming. That 1/8" hole makes it a lot easier to squirt the gas where I want it to go.
Jerry

Well, I got it to start! Turned out I had the distributor 180 degrees off (don't ask me how that happened.
All I did was re-position the wires on the cap (moved each one halfway around).
Rechecked my valve adjustment and timing, cranked it over and it fired right up!
Unfortunately it wouldn't run for more that a minute or so before it died. It acted like it wasn't getting gas. I could get it to keep going a bit by pumping the accelerator, but that was it.
Is it possible the carb is out of adjustment? It's a rebuilt Rochester from Jim Carter. At the moment I can't think of anything else, and I don't want to run this in fits and starts and mess up the cam.

Tim

How does it act when it runs? Smoothly and then dies or is it a sputtering mess the whole time?

Mine ran like crap set on the timing ball and the I finally advanced it a little bit one day and made a huge difference.

Did you push the choke in right away? Might need to run at part choke for a little bit.

Got the firing order correct? 153624

Would not assume the rebuilt carb was done correctly. Would be easy to check float setting and drop. Small changes make a big difference. Aside from that, do you have any buddies who would loan you a carb off a known running engine?

I don't have another carb available to swap. As far as running, it started up right off the bat, ran strong, then stumbled a bit, then died. I can't keep it running long enough to try fussing with the timing or mixture screw, I am just trying to get a decent initial adjustment. I might have to pull the top off the carb to check float settings, except I don't know what carb it is, other than a Rochester single barrel with manual choke.
I'm going to go out and do some more fiddling and see what I can do.
This is very frustrating, although I am really happy that it actually runs! Only the second non-VW engine I've ever done.

Tim

You filled the float bowl and it started, when the bowl ran dry it quit. Fuel delivery problem. Stuck float, bad pump, clogged fuel line.🛠

disconnect fuel line from carb, and then crank to start and see if any fuel is coming out of line
if not probably bad fuel pump..

Ditto on the fuel pump. Loosen the pump attaching bolts a turn or so, and wobble the pump up and down on the engine with the line to the carb in a catch container like a motor oil bottle. That way you don't have to keep spinning the engine to check the pump. After several cycles it should start squirting fuel. If not, look for a clogged inlet line or swap pumps.

Float level- - - - -the top of the float pontoons should be approximately parallel with the bottom of the carb cover. That's close enough to run and prevent flooding for an initial run-in of the engine, but maybe not ideal for best performance out on the road.
Jerry

Great job figuring out you were 180 off! My guess is that despite your frustration, you have perma grin.

OK, I went out after dinner to check things out.

Removed the fuel line at the carb, gas came running out of the line. By the way the carb is a single barrel Rochester of some sort.

Took the top off of the carb and the bowl was full of gas. Not quite up to the top, but within 1/4" or so (maybe 1/8"), but it was just below the level of the throat. I imagine some may have run out when I removed the line.

Between those I would say that the problem isn't fuel pump.

I did notice one thing I thought was strange. After the last time I had the engine running for a brief moment, I noticed that the coil was hot. Not quite too hot to touch, but plenty hot. Is this normal? As far as I know I have the right coil. On the side it says "do not use with external resistor", which I assume means that it has an internal resistor.

Any more ideas? I'm stuck.

It is a fuel problem. Coils get hot. You have to disconnect line at carb, put line into a clear bottle, take off center tower wire on dizzy (so it won't start), crank motor, observe steady/pulsing fuel into bottle. Should start to fill up quick. Make sure it's strong squirts. If good, it's the carb. Don't care if carb rebuilt or not, don't care if bowl full.
If does not supply good volume of fuel into bottle, it's pump and on back. See if you can use the choke to keep it running. Best to have a remote start switch so you can stand near carb for all this.

OK, I'll check out the fuel pump. Unfortunately this is a foot starter, so no remote starter switch possible. On the other hand, there is no body, so I can push the starter with one hand and work accelerator with the other, and adjust choke with...wait, that's not right. I need an assistant!
It's frustrating to be so close!

Tim

Tim,

I was told by hotrod that you can take a prybar from under the hood and if you wedge it in there correctly you can engage the stomp starter. I have not tried this yet.

Chris

With the body removed there's not much to pry against to engage the starter. Try clamping a vise grip to the lever that engages the starter pinion and pushes the switch to get a good gear engagement.
Jerry

OK, I went out and disconnected the line from fuel pump at carb. Cranked the engine over (with ignition OFF) and got a nice solid stream of fuel. Regular pulses, half filled a pint container in about 20 seconds. So I am assuming the fuel pump is good.

Took off the top of carb, checked the needle valve (? the valve that shuts off fuel when the float rises) and it was working, checked that the other things were tight (main jet, tower screw). Worked the acceleration pump and got a good spray of gas into the throat.
Checked that the mixture screw was 1 1/2 turns out, tightened vacuum line to advance in case there was some sort of leak.

Went and checked the timing (good), point gap (good), and pulled one plug. Other than being sooty (I assume from running rich due to choke) it looked good.

I'm out of ideas. Don't want to try another start until I get this figured out.

Tim

well, you might just for the fun of it, replace the condenser
they can make one run rough... I failed to replace one during tune up
and it rain like crap but did run... not saying this is your problem but
it is a cheap replace and sometime folks forget about how important
this little booger is.. just a thought

I would also install new plugs in it..and not go by
the looks of one plug, probably not ur problem but being
that u have tried a lot... why not ....

Brand new condenser, points, rotor, cap, plug wires, plugs. Old distributor, but it looked fine when I took it apart to clean and test. I suppose I could have gotten a bad condenser. I have another condenser that I could swap in. But I'm confused because it starts right up and then runs so well for a while.
Everything on the engine is either new or rebuilt.
The valves seem to be working well, they might be a little loose, but they go up and down at the right time. No lifters hanging up that I can tell. I am assuming that most settings are pretty close to what they should be, or it wouldn't start so quickly. If I could just keep it running!
With no cab there is no gas pedal, but I have a stiff wire connected to the accelerator pivot and can use that to adjust throttle and keep it in position. I have a cable on the choke, so I can adjust that.
I tightened up the manifold bolts in case there was some sort of leak. I don't think there's a problem there.

Any other ideas?

This comment " Unfortunately it wouldn't run for more that a minute or so before it died. It acted like it wasn't getting gas. I could get it to keep going a bit by pumping the accelerator, but that was it." Is what is making everyone think it's a fuel problem.
"it starts right up and then runs so well for a while."
1. 20 seconds for 1/2 pint? Not real good. Are you sure it was 20 seconds? That's a long time. Get a new fuel pump.
2. If your ignition switch and other wires are not intermittent, it's fuel or vacuum.
3. Dirt particles can float around in tank, carb and filters and clog up after running a minute.
4. You can not tell if a needle and seat are working properly by looking at them.
5. Get a squirt bottle of gas, squirt some down throat (not into that little pipe) when it starts to die and see if it keeps running.
6. Be SURE there are no vacuum leaks.
7. Take OFF gas tank cap when testing motor.
8. Clean battery cables and tighten post clamps. Check the negative ground connection. Lot's to do, scope it all out. Stop taking the top off of carb.
9. Coils are cheap, probably should get one.
10. The results of the above tests and observations will help us to narrow the problem down for you..... from our house.

Hate to have someone buy new parts before problem is identified. In cases where poster reports "new parts" "all timing good" "motor starts right up" "pump good" "carb squirts" "no vac leaks" ...... it is necessary to buy a few cheaper suspected parts, some parts are bad out of the package, check float level and drop, rebuild carb and recheck points and such is all we can say. Further tests may take equipment not available to poster.

Jerry, read this link. Do you see any possible problem Tim (Bluesman) could have done? https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...19/stupid-carb-question.html#Post1233119

ok, did not see from your previous post that you had completed all that...sorry

sometimes when an engine might be running well and then just cut off
it can be a ignition type problem rather then fuel.. like getting a wire or such
getting hot and breaking down, etc.. I had a 52 with the 235 but also
had a electronic mallory set up in the dist........that sucker shorted out
after getting hot and would do all sort of weird things.. but would not
do it all the time.. took for ever to find out the problem... good luck with yours

Not sure if this fits, but I had a 60 vette I had just put a new motor in. I was working on something and wound up leaving the key on in run position. After about half an hour, I noticed that the coil was hot. Next day I got the car running, took it out the road and run like a champ. About 2 minutes out, it started running like crap, barely got it home. Looked over a bunch of things, took it for another ride, run like a champ again, almost same exact spot on the road, it started acting up again. Replaced coil, no more problems. So it had a timed/heat issue, that worked fine until that point, and then went down hill fast. But the next time, worked fine again, until.

If it were mine I would move the timing slightly one way and try it. If it makes a big difference, good. If not I would move it a bit the other way.

That is a good suggestion if it was running bad. It starts "right up", runs awhile and quits. Pumping accelerator saves it for awhile? Does not seem to be a timing issue to me.
I won't be sure until he finds the problem. You could be right.

What are you using for a fuel tank?

I'll try to answer some of the questions.

I went out and checked the fuel pump again. You are right, it wasn't 20 seconds, more like five or six.
All I have are a wire from the battery to the ignition switch, a wire from the ignition switch to the coil, and a wire from the coil to the distributor. I could bypass the ignition switch, but all it does is feed power to the coil. Foot starter
Don't know about dirt in fuel. It goes through a filter before it hits the pump.
I checked the needle and seat by blowing through it when open and then trying when it was closed. Couldn't force sir through when it was closed.
Can't tell about vacuum leaks at the moment.
Battery and all cables are new, attached on bare metal. Starter turns over very well.
I swapped in a brand new coil I had for the brand new one that was on it.
I am going to give it a try tomorrow, and I have a squirt bottle of gas to try.

I'll let everyone know the results.

Tim

52Carl asked you, what do you have for a fuel tank

To be sure, you are saying a wire from ignition switch to coil positive. From coil negative to distributor. Right? If you only had a wire from foot starter to coil, that wire becomes dead when you let off your foot.

Just curious, didn't your 60 motor have an electric solenoid starter?

Your pump does seem OK. BUT particles can float around and temporarily block off fuel lines/pumps/carb passages, needle valves, which makes the motor die. Like particles in the gas tank. We may advise, as Carl is thinking, that you run from a gas can on the ground with a hose stuck down in it directly from pump inlet. (bypassing tank and all lines/filters). I mean what else can we do? Gotta keep trying things. You have almost bought a new motor so far. Bypassing, which is called isolating, is a viable method right now.

Please state that you have removed the gas cap. Want to be sure you are NOT getting a vacuum lock due to unvented system. This would make a motor die.

A bad condenser, even when new can make a motor die.

Does the carb float, float?

Are the correct gaskets/spacers on carb...... with the slot in carb base gasket oriented properly? Carb bolts tight?

Just for legal purposes, we need the sequence of events. Tell us when the motor last ran good. What was done, and by whom, since the last time it ran good. (stayed running).

Is the gas old or new?

Does it have enough gas?

Let us know what happens with the squirt bottle test. I really hope you can keep it running or get a feel that you could keep it running. It is really hard to keep it going with a dribble or spray. (bypassing tank, pump, carb and all lines). Be careful, do it outside. Don't have to tell a science teacher to be careful I guess. Be sure you are not choking it to death. Be sure choke is not closing without you knowing. What kind of choke is it? 100% manual? I am not sure if you can still get it to run a minute or not? Did that part go away?

We appreciate your determination and we are all watching and waiting for you to hit the jackpot. Lots of questions and suggestions. Probably hard on you, keep the faith baby.

CAUTION..................... When using a squirt bottle to keep it running! If it backfires through the Carburator your squirt bottle will turn into a flame thrower!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KEEP A FIRE EXTINGUISHER CLOSE BY.

Wouldn't plumbing a motor boat can (with siphon pump) into the carb inlet be preferable to the squirt gun? Or is there some reason we are trying to completely bypass the carb.

Sounds to me like risky business. Not just the personal safety aspect, but also the fact that we are dealing with a brand new motor with a cam that hasn't been run in.

how about a pix of your truck and engine set up
something strange is going on, as 52carl would say,
dont over think it...

did you receive your bell crank that you were asking for?

OK, hard to keep up with everything here.

I have no gas tank, just the engine on bare frame. I am running with a 2 gallon gas can on the ground nest to the front tire with a length of rubber fuel line dropped in and connected to the inlet of the fuel pump.

Yes, the 1960 engine originally came with a solenoid operated starter, but I switched it over to a foot starter to match the 1953 1 ton body.

Yes, the ignition wire runs from the switch to the coil. The foot starter has a permanent positive connection to the battery.

Yes, I made sure to align the spacer and gasket with the hole in the bottom of the carb, and the nuts are as tight as I can get them. It's a rebuilt Rochester carb from Jim Carter.

The engine has never been running since I have owned it. I bought it not running, immediately tore it down and hauled it off to the machine shop (PMI in Jefferson City, MO). The block was cleaned (I think baked, not tanked), cylinders bored out 40 over, crankshaft turned, new camshaft, new hydraulic lifters, new pistons, rings, all bearings, head magna-fluxed and pressure tested, new valves, valve guides, valve seats, springs, keepers. New radiator, water pump and fan, new hoses, new thermostat, alternator, fuel pump, oil pump, plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, points, condenser. New clutch disc, resurfaced flywheel. About the only thing from the original engine are the block, head, connecting rods (checked, bored, and new bearings), and flywheel/pressure plate. Assembled with all clearances checked with plasti-gauge, all good, turned smoothly, good ring gaps. Everything should be fine. And it does run, very well for a minute or so.

New gas (from the cans I use to run my tractor, which runs well).

As far as I can tell the floats in the carb float, although I didn't check that when I had it apart. More and more I am thinking this is a carb issue, possibly float/needle valve causing it to flood out.

I am taking today off from the engine. Too hot, 90's and heat index of 100, and I need to get away from this for a day to get rid of my frustration! I know I will eventually get this figured out, but it's hard to keep perspective. And I'm worried about the camshaft. Although I'm not sure what happens when a camshaft is not run in properly. Does the engine stop running? Blow up? Not last as long as it should? Screw up valve adjustment?

Thanks to all who are trying to help me with this, I really appreciate it.

Tim

Is the gas can well-vented?

I have no gas tank, just the engine on bare frame. I am running with a 2 gallon gas can on the ground nest to the front tire with a length of rubber fuel line dropped in and connected to the inlet of the fuel pump.
Bingo
might try putting that gas can higher up off the ground..

Back

The

Valve

Adjustments

Off!

You're probably pumping up the lifters and killing the compression after a short run time. It's a common problem with new lifters. Just take the obvious slack out of the lifters without bothering to perform some sort of voodoo magic with a certain number of turns of preload until you have made a cam break in run. Then go back with the engine at normal operating temperature and do a hydraulic lifter adjustment procedure.
Jerry

The fuel pump is sucking gas right where he has the can, evidenced by the pump test. He is doing it correctly. If cap is off gas can for hose to enter, it's vented. Don't need a primer bulb either. This is good, eliminates all the worry about particles, almost. It eliminates vacuum lock, bad gas....all good news. Hope it's not tractor diesel.

The squirt down carb is not super safe. It is an extension of what is done to get a motor started. Yes we are trying to completely bypass the carb and the pump for long enough to get information. The motor does not know where it is getting the gas charge. Probably should NOT do the squirt while running if you feel uncomfortable. It is pointing to the carb now anyway if everyone is OK with the electricals. What new electrical component can break down after one minute and rejuvenate and do it over and over?.. and completely stop all spark? I don't know. It's not the symptom of a bad condenser.

It still starts and runs for a minute or so. That is good. Something wrong inside carb. I think it's running about how long it takes to empty bowl? Bowl not refilling? or not full to begin with. Carb King will know. Some ball left out, accelerator pump, needle, float.........idle circuit.

At least half of the lube is already wiped off the cam and etc. Usually the break-in is after you start the motor and run. I don't think trying to start it is a problem, but when it stays running, then the break-in procedure is on. (whatever you have been told to do by the rebuilder).
You have to to get it started. There is no way to get it started without trying to get it started. Your cam is OK as long as your oil pressure came up during the one minute runs. Limit the starting until something major is discovered or done. Like: Jerry's thing or another carb. Slapping a running loaner carb on there takes 10 minutes. Got any buddies with a carb? Looks like you are pretty isolated back in there. That is why I was suggesting the squirt thing. If you were sure, you would order a new carb, fix the other later and sell it.

If the hose is not genuine fuel hose, it will collapse from suction. That will stop the motor. If the hose sucks itself to the side of the gas can, that will stop the motor.

Logic says: Wouldn't expect a rebuilt carb from J. Carter to be bad.

Logic says: It's something we didn't expect to be bad.

Just trying to think outside the bottle.

Hope Jerry is right. That would be wonderful. Be careful of voiding any warranty.

Tim, I see you got this, you are doing everything right. As Bugs Bunny would say, you need "west and wewaxation".

bartamos, "west and wewaxation"? Bugs Bunny would say?
Just when you nailed down an impeccable synopsis as to how the OP should proceed, you absolutely and unforgivably blew it!
It was not Bugs Bunny who said that. It was Elmer Fudd.
Sheesh! I can tolerate a lot, but the mid-characterization of iconic, life lesson inspiring cartoon characters is unacceptable. Mine, and many other's lives are anchored by what we learned from those cartoons.
That's all folks...
Carl
(Smiley face emoji? I cannot bring myself to do it.)












just kidding.

Oh man, I did. I impecled my cyclopsis for sure.

OK, I went out this morning to make more checks/adjustments.

I backed off the valve adjustment until there was just barely no slack in the train as HRL suggested.

I pulled the top of the carb and found the needle valve had fallen out! Hurrah, this may be the problem.

Carefully replaced the needle valve, measured float level and drop and they were WAY off. The drop measured about 2 1/2", the float was fairly close to specs. Adjusted the drop to 1 3/4" (per engine manual), now the needle valve stays in.

Re installed it on the engine, hooked up all the lines, cranked it over and it started right up, ran for a minute (about), then died. To me it acted like it was flooding. Tried again, managed to get the spray bottle in position and shot some gas down the throat. It didn't help. When I looked down the throat I could see a puddle of gas in the intake manifold.

So, does it sound like the carb needs to be worked on? I don't have a rebuild kit, and the carb has no numbers on it to tell me what kit to get. All I know is it is some sort of Rochester single barrel that has the lines in the right places for my engine. I hate working on carbs, but if I have to I'll do it.

Tim